Seanad debates
Tuesday, 7 December 2004
Order of Business.
Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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The Order of Business is No. 1, a motion referred to the Joint Committee on Justice, Equality, Defence and Women's Rights, which has completed its discussions — it relates to the fact that all treaty provisions covered by the European Council decision will in future be adopted on the basis of qualified majority voting, to be taken without debate; No. 2, Garda Síochána Bill 2004 — Committee Stage, to be taken at the conclusion of the Order of Business until 6.30 p.m.; No. 3, Tribunal of Inquiry into Certain Planning Matters and Payments Bill 2004 — all Stages, to be taken at 7 p.m. and to conclude not later than 9 p.m., on which spokespersons may speak for 12 minutes and other Senators eight minutes. There will be a sos from 6.30 p.m. to 7 p.m.
Brian Hayes (Fine Gael)
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Last week, Senators called for a debate on Northern Ireland. Will the Leader agree to hold such a debate before the end of the session, irrespective of the outcome of talks tomorrow and the final deadline imposed by the Governments? My colleague, Senator Cummins, last week asked the Leader to provide clarity on the issue surrounding two persons who have yet to be convicted for the manslaughter or murder of Detective Garda McCabe. The persons in question, one of whom lives in South America while the other lives in Portugal, fled the country following the murder of Detective Garda McCabe in 1996. Does the Leader have information concerning these persons? Will an amnesty be granted to them in respect of the appalling crimes they committed with their colleagues in 1996 in Adare? Will she put such information on the record? Whatever deal is done — I hope one is done — it must involve no humiliation for Mrs. McCabe, the Garda Síochána or the institutions of the State, which were 82 years' old yesterday. Many calls have been made from all sides for a debate on Northern Ireland and I am sure the Leader will do her best to facilitate one.
I join the request issued over the weekend by the conference of the Teachers Union of Ireland that the Government establish a commission on discipline in the school system. This is an important issue. Teachers tell us that the issue of indiscipline in the school system is more important than the issue of pay. The cases raised at the TUI conference included bullying, sexual harassment and innuendo, spitting at teachers and destruction of personal property. The State has a responsibility to ensure that all teachers work in a disciplined environment and that adequate protection is given to boards of management to ensure the school environment is safe for teachers and pupils. We need to address this issue. A review of legislation has been called for in this area. I support the call by the TUI for a commission on discipline in our schools.
Joe O'Toole (Independent)
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I also raised the issue of the proposed release of the killers of Detective Garda McCabe last week. This matter has sparked a major debate. I cannot remember the last time I received such a response to an issue. People are genuinely worried. The debate has been confused, despite the fact that I and others stated we were prepared to defend the position that the individuals concerned come under the terms of the Good Friday Agreement until such time as a clear Government decision was taken. We voted in favour of the Government's position when it emerged and that position should remain. Who is demanding the release of the killers of Detective Garda McCabe?
Over the weekend, I waited for the convicted killers to express their views on their dastardly act. I did not hear a word of apology or a single indication that they have turned their backs on military means for achieving their aims. I also raised the issue of the two persons who absconded. What is the position regarding them?
We should have a debate on this issue. Although we sometimes argue that a debate could interfere with matters, that is not the case here. I spoke to many people from Northern Ireland and have been on the media in Northern Ireland in the past couple of days. It is important to hold a debate and place our views on record. At this stage nobody understands the Taoiseach's position. I am prepared to accept the position of the Taoiseach — and the Tánaiste — if he comes to this House, after due consideration, and says that although he does not like it, he has considered all aspects and this is the only way to achieve peace in Ireland. That is what leadership is about, regardless of party affiliation. It is unacceptable for us not have a clear understanding from where these proposals emerged and the stage at which we decided to move back from the Good Friday Agreement. If we now extend the Agreement through negotiations about these people, will that be the end of it? Are there other groups who might kill somebody tomorrow and claim the same rights in six months?
It is crucially important the proposals discussed are published. There should neither be humiliation nor triumphalism. In any kind of negotiation, everybody must back down to some extent. I agree with Senator Hayes that nobody in this situation should be humiliated. I do not have a problem with the concept of a photograph. However, I am strongly opposed to the concept of providing something which leads to more triumphalism and trouble down the road. That is not what this is about. When people sign off on an agreement, they walk away and stick with it. They should live with it. This is about much more than a photograph.
A recent OECD report shows Irish teachers, in particular post-primary teachers, have delivered good results. In spite of what ignorant people have said in the past ten years regarding reading ability and standards, Ireland is close to the top of the pile. That is a tribute to our teachers and school system.
Michael McCarthy (Labour)
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The Leader said No. 3 would be taken between 7 p.m. and 9 p.m. this evening. She then said the sos would be between 6.30 p.m. and 7.30 p.m. Can she clarify the matter?
In comments made yesterday, the Minister of State at the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government, Deputy Batt O'Keeffe, spoke of the amount of litter fines issued in this country last year. Approximately 23,000 on-the-spot fines were issued, but figures indicate less than half were paid. This is grossly unacceptable and indicates a failure at local government level. Litter is an issue which has blighted this country for long enough. We have tried to educate and direct people into thinking of litter as a scourge. Who is at fault? Can the Leader arrange a debate with the Minister of State on this serious issue? We must understand whether it is local government or the Department which is failing in its duties.
Depression is another taboo issue which is a source of concern. Irish and British experts warn that some doctors prescribe anti-depressants far too easily for mild depression. The National Institute for Clinical Excellence in the UK recommends that anti-depressants not be used for initial treatment. This is a sensitive issue. Can the Leader organise a debate and get guidance from the Minister for Health and Children with regard to what UK health authorities have stated? What standards do we have in Ireland with regard to prescriptions for initial treatment of depression?
John Dardis (Progressive Democrats)
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I agree with Senator Brian Hayes regarding a debate on Northern Ireland. Last week, I would have said we should not have a debate given the sensitivity of the issues involved and that we hoped there would be progress. Hopefully this will continue and there will be a full and final settlement in the next few days. However, we should have a debate in the context of clarity about a settlement being achieved or rejected. If the talks were to continue for another week, as they may, it might be more prudent to await clarity on the matter. The net question is whether Sinn Féin is prepared to accept democracy, put away its arms, eliminate paramilitarism, intimidation and punishment beatings and fully embrace the democratic mandate.
I agree with Senator O'Toole that the OECD report on education is worthy of debate. It is a matter of somewhat considerable satisfaction that standards in our secondary schools, in particular, are so high by international comparison. Credit is due in that regard to the teachers and all others involved. It confirms Ireland's reputation in terms of its educational system, a reputation which has contributed in no small way to the inward investment which has been so successful in driving forward the economy.
James Bannon (Fine Gael)
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I support my colleague's call for a debate on Northern Ireland. A great deal of confusion exists as to where the Government stands on the issue of State security and law and order. This House needs to debate the issue of law and order to find out where the Government stands on it.
I call on the Leader to invite the Minister for Agriculture and Food to the House to debate the issue of inadequate labelling of Irish beef. A recent survey by the Food Safety Authority of Ireland states that a significant amount of beef, chicken and pork labelled Irish is actually produced in South America. We need to address this issue. The Government needs to gets it act together and deal with this matter.
Ann Ormonde (Fianna Fail)
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I, too, call for a debate on Northern Ireland particularly given there may be a full and final settlement tomorrow.
I welcome the OECD report. Ireland has the finest professionals in its teachers but, unfortunately, they are unable to do their job given the lack of discipline in our schools. Teachers are unable to fulfil the curriculum as a result of the conditions laid down. We need to revisit the issue of discipline in our schools. It is time this House held a debate on the OECD report and on the discipline problem. I ask the Leader to make time available for such a debate in the new year. Teachers would welcome such a debate, a matter made known at the TUI conference last Saturday.
David Norris (Independent)
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I would like clarification from the Leader on why the House met at 2 p.m. today. I ask that question given the tradition of this House to meet at fairly regular times which, in turn, makes it so much easier to plan one's diary long term. Previously, the House has met at 10.30 a.m., 11 a.m., 12 noon, 2 p.m. and 2.30 p.m. Today, the House met at 2 p.m., a half hour earlier than usual. The Leader has complained with me to the Joint Committee on Foreign Affairs, of which we are both members, that there is an unusual conjunction in that it and the Seanad tend to meet at the same time. That committee met at 2 p.m. today. I do not mean any discourtesy to the Leader, whose response I will read later with great interest, or to the Cathaoirleach, but when I have asked this question I will attend the Joint Committee on Foreign Affairs which is discussing the Geneva Convention, an important matter.
I support the call for a debate on Northern Ireland. Senator Dardis said matters are delicate. Matters are delicate but the principal participants are not all that delicate. I would not describe Ian Paisley or Danny Morrison as particularly delicate and I do not believe they would be affected by what is said in this House. It is about time we did say something on the matter.
John Dardis (Progressive Democrats)
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Senator Norris is no shrinking violet.
Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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I never said the Senator was a shrinking violet either.
David Norris (Independent)
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With regard to the McCabe controversy, excellently ventilated in the House, over the past week a series of radio programmes was aired and polls were conducted. Over 80% of the people disagree with the release because this was plainly a criminal enterprise. At the time, the IRA and Sinn Féin said these criminals were not theirs, they did not know them and they disowned them. They did so because this was a bank heist, robbery and murder and no less. Now, by insisting on these people's inclusion, the IRA and Sinn Féin are associating themselves with thugs, murderers and thieves, joined in a criminal conspiracy against society. They should be reminded that until very recently the murder of a garda was a capital offence, the only remaining such offence in the State. That is how seriously we take it.
David Norris (Independent)
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I said last week that I was afraid Paisley might talk himself out of the deal. It now looks as if he has done so.
Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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There will be a discussion on Northern Ireland issues and the Senator can raise those points then.
David Norris (Independent)
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There will be a debate. Thank you, a Chathaoirligh. I am glad you have decided that. That is excellent news. On your word I will keep——
Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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I meant to say there could be a discussion.
David Norris (Independent)
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There could be a discussion.
I intend to continue pursuing the issue of the Gulfstream jet landing at Shannon Airport. I am grateful to the House, particularly the Leader, for co-operation and help on this matter. I will also raise it at the Joint Committee on Transport and the Joint Committee on Foreign Affairs. The more I look at it, the more I am convinced there is an arguable case that civilians, having been kidnapped, are trafficked through Shannon Airport for the purposes of torture.
Marc MacSharry (Fianna Fail)
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I support Senator McCarthy's request to the Leader for the Minister of State at the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government, Deputy Batt O'Keeffe, to attend the House to discuss the problem of litter. This would also give an opportunity to raise the issue of the Irish Business Against Litter organisation, which is very much in the media every six months. I draw the House's attention to the disgraceful and irresponsible manner in which this organisation recently chose to sensationalise the results of its selective and highly flawed survey on litter. The survey is not carried out in all towns or in comparable sites in each of the selected towns. However, every six months it is guaranteed headlines to scandalise and slander towns, such as my home town of Sligo, and Swords. In the most recent survey, Swords and Sligo have been deemed the dirtiest and second dirtiest towns, respectively. The survey is funded by State funding yet Irish Business Against Litter sub-contracts it to An Taisce. All Members know that organisation's record for being representative of the majority.
Ulick Burke (Fine Gael)
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I support the calls for a debate on the OECD report on education. I acknowledge the comparatively high status of our 15 year old secondary school students in the report's results. However, one important area in which we are falling down is mathematics. The Minister for Education and Science, Deputy Hanafin, must indicate to the House her plans for dealing with this and also the lack of discipline and bullying. It is important for the Minister to challenge these particular topics by implementing a recognisable policy for all involved.
Will the Leader ask the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government to allow local authorities some discretion in spending funds given to them for specific projects? Members speak of traffic gridlock in Dublin, but we have it in the west too. As regards gridlock on the main approach road to Galway, the local authority gave the legitimate reason that it is forced to spend the money within a given period. If it is not spent by a certain date in December, it must be returned to the Exchequer. This is ridiculous. If we are serious about obtaining value for money, it is important for the Minister to give local authorities some discretion to allow them to spend their funds at the most appropriate time to enable works to continue in a reasonable manner.
Geraldine Feeney (Fianna Fail)
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I support Senator Brian Hayes in his call for a debate on discipline in schools. Under the leadership of the Minister of State with responsibility for labour affairs, Deputy Killeen, an expert group is meeting to examine bullying in the workforce. It might be a good idea for the House to consider its findings in the new year. I have come from a conference this morning at which a teacher spoke about 14 to 16 year olds. While it is wonderful to read in the OECD report how well Irish students are doing, there are teachers who are threatened by even the body language of people in that age group. It might be useful for the House to link school discipline with workplace bullying when it considers the expert group's report.
Fergal Browne (Fine Gael)
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I support the call for a debate on bullying in schools, on which the TUI held a conference at the weekend. I have heard appalling stories lately, including one from a primary school concerning a 12 year old pupil who was brought to a Garda station in Carlow by his mother because he was drunk. This 12 year old boasts openly about assaulting accident and emergency unit nurses during the summer. That is what we are dealing with. In a nearby area, two schools were almost set on fire. The system of suspension and expulsion of students seems to have been changed in recent years. The change caters for a minority given that the majority of students are very well behaved. We have procedures in the House to suspend any Member who misbehaves, but that, unfortunately, appears not to be the case in schools. A debate is called for as there is chaos in the system.
I ask the Leader to raise with the Minister for Communications, Marine and Natural Resources the coverage of certain news events by the State broadcaster, RTE. We found out at the weekend about the existence of an illegal distillery on the Cooley Peninsula. While I understand there are clear links between the distillery and republican dissidents, RTE failed to mention them in its broadcast. It appears that RTE is afraid to refer to links to republican elements in its coverage of events. We witnessed the difference of approach by RTE and the newspapers in the context of coverage of associates of a Member of the other House. It is a very worrying development. The State broadcaster should be free to comment in the way newspapers do. There is a grave imbalance currently.
Maurice Cummins (Fine Gael)
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Senator Norris commented on the murder of Garda McCabe. Has the Government position on Fine Gael's amendment No. 12 to the Garda Síochána Bill 2004, in which we call for——
Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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That is not a matter for the Leader. It is a matter for the Chair. We will deal with the amendment when we take the Bill.
Maurice Cummins (Fine Gael)
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My contribution relates to the same subject as the contribution of Senator Norris.
Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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We will discuss the Garda Síochána Bill later.
Maurice Cummins (Fine Gael)
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I will leave amendment No. 12 until we take the Bill. Is it the Government's position on convictions for the manslaughter or murder of gardaí that sentenced persons should not be eligible for early release?
Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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The Leader of the Opposition, Senator Brian Hayes, called for a debate on Northern Ireland. While everyone would welcome rather than object to a debate, it may be obviated by two matters. If there were clarity one way or another it would be very useful, but there is not. The other problem is a lack of time. If Members think this week's agenda is packed, they will consider the same to be true next week. It would, however, be helpful to hold a debate on Northern Ireland in the kind of atmosphere we have in the House. Watching the comings and goings of the various dramatis personae, particularly Dr. Paisley coming out of Downing Street last night, who would have thought he would quote Shakespeare? I knew he had all the biblical references but I would not have thought he had access to Shakespeare's words which were, for him, very appropriate. I was very taken by it. I imagine he plans these encounters and what he will say.
The Senator asked if I had found out whether there would be an amnesty for the two IRA men who escaped, one to South Africa and the other to Portugal. The answer is "No" because when I spoke to the Taoiseach last week I occupied my time talking about the general issue and did not go into that matter. I will do so, however, and when I get that information I will put it on the record. The Senator said there should be no humiliation for anybody concerned, particularly for Mrs. McCabe, and we would all wish for that.
The Senator raised the matter of the TUI and called for a commission on discipline. He referred also to second level teachers who are subject to bullying and sexual innuendo and said they are entitled to a safe environment in which to ply their profession. I agree with the Senator.
Senator O'Toole raised the issue of the late Detective Garda McCabe and said that if, despite everything, a complete and comprehensive demilitarisation were effected he would be prepared to accept it, but asked about the position of the other groups and how they would be treated. He said there should be no triumphalism, regardless of the outcome.
The Senator also mentioned the OECD report, about which we were all pleased. We hear the detractors and then we hear about a positive report like this, which I thought was excellent. It is a long overdue accolade to teachers. The foundations have to be laid at primary level, followed by second level and it is clear that the recognition by the OECD is very important for this country. We would wish to have time to debate that report but there will not be time to do so. If we can fit in a debate on Northern Ireland with the other circumstances of which I spoke, we will endeavour to do so.
Senator McCarthy asked about a matter referred to yesterday by the Minister of State, Deputy Batt O'Keeffe, namely the major default on litter fines. He asked that the Minister of State be invited to the House to debate that issue. He also called for a debate on depression. We will request such a debate. The Senator also asked about the time for the sos. I may have given the wrong time. There is only a half an hour sos from 6.30 p.m. to 7 p.m. I may have said 6.30 p.m. to 7.30 p.m. earlier because I am used to announcing a sos of an hour. The debate following the sos begins at 7 p.m.
That brings me to Senator Norris's question about the 2 p.m. start. It is not greatly discommoding to ask the House to sit half an hour earlier. I cannot understand how it would upset anybody's diary. Senator Norris's must be a very exciting diary——
Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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The half hour sos means we will be free at 9 p.m. instead of 9.30 p.m., which is not too much to ask. We try to keep relatively decent hours here in the evening.
Senator Dardis said we should await clarity on the Northern Ireland issue but that he would welcome a debate. He talked also about the standards of education expertise and said that to attract inward investment it was important we had people with the knowledge and a good grounding in education to fill those jobs.
Senator Bannon echoed the call for a debate on Northern Ireland, law and order and, particularly, agriculture. He asked that the Minister for Agriculture and Food be invited to the House to discuss the inadequate labelling of sourced Irish beef.
Senator Ormonde raised the issue of Northern Ireland and the OECD report. As a teacher, like myself, she was very pleased about that. She also picked up on what Senator Brian Hayes said about the discipline problem. Discipline was always a problem in schools. It might have taken different forms but there has always been indiscipline. How it is dealt with is another matter.
Senator Norris stated 80% of people disagreed with the release of prisoners convicted of the manslaughter of Detective Garda McCabe and he continued to probe into what he alleges is the trafficking of prisoners through Shannon Airport.
Senator MacSharry also called on the Minister of State at the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government, Deputy Batt O'Keeffe, to come to the House for a debate. He referred to Irish Business Against Litter and I am always amazed that this organisation leads the news every time it issues a statement. I did not know until yesterday that it subcontracts the work to An Taisce, which is an amazing twist. I noted that both Swords and Sligo had a bad day.
Senator Ulick Burke referred to the OECD report on education and the issue of indiscipline. Mathematics was not a strong subject among the Irish students surveyed unlike languages and science. He also called on the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government to introduce flexibility on local authority funding. Three-year funding envelopes are provided in various areas but such an envelope has not been introduced for local authority funding. Every October and November every street in Ireland is dug up because local authorities are trying to spend their money. One cannot travel a mile but the road is dug up. The Senator called for flexibility so that the funding could be expended in other areas earlier in the year.
Senator Feeney made a good suggestion, which is that the commission on bullying, chaired by the Minister of State at the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment, Deputy Killeen, should address the indiscipline issue. That makes sense and I will put it to him.
Senator Browne referred to indiscipline. He also raised what he sees as the imbalance between what is reported in newspapers and by RTE but they do not have a mandate to copy each other.
Fergal Browne (Fine Gael)
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They must give fair coverage. They are afraid to do so.
Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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I do not know that the Minister will go into every detail of what is on RTE. It is not his job.
Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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Senator Cummins referred to Northern Ireland issues and asked what is the Government's position on the release of prisoners. He also stressed the Mrs. McCabe issue. I know she said she did not want our sympathy but there is huge sympathy for her because of her suffering. She will never be free because she will never have closure on her utter grief. The emphasis on her husband's death again must be extremely poignant and sad for her.