Ulick Burke (Fine Gael)
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Amendment No. 1, in the name of Senator Bannon, is ruled out of order as it is not relevant to the Bill as read a Second Time.

Ulick Burke (Fine Gael)
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Amendment No. 2, in the name of Senator Bannon, is ruled out of order as it is not relevant to the Bill as read a Second Time.

James Bannon (Fine Gael)
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What will replace the Mahon tribunal as a forum for receiving complaints about corruption? Senator Brady said that tribunals have been in existence since 1921.

Cyprian Brady (Fianna Fail)
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The first tribunal of inquiry was established in 1921.

James Bannon (Fine Gael)
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Some system is required. Will the Minister indicate what he intends to propose? The Fine Gael Party proposes to establish a committee of investigation when it is back in government.

Cyprian Brady (Fianna Fail)
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Can we wait that long?

James Bannon (Fine Gael)
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I have no doubt corruption will continue and some system must be in place to deal with it. A system of tendering for lawyers must be introduced. Tribunals have been overshadowed by the cost issue. If one enters a public house or other forum in which people congregate, one will hear them talk about the cost of the tribunal process. They do not look at the purpose for which they were established, which was to deal with corruption. It is crazy and unjust that lawyers could receive €2,400 per day in this society.

Ulick Burke (Fine Gael)
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Senator, you are straying from the terms of reference of the Bill.

James Bannon (Fine Gael)
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I return to the tendering process. My colleague in the Dáil, Deputy Jim O'Keeffe, successfully convinced the Minister of the merits of tendering for lawyers in the debate on the Commissions of Investigation Act. The Minister, Deputy Roche, is probably aware of that. I would like to see the same process being used to engage lawyers for tribunals of inquiry. Perhaps the Minister will consider it.

The Minister spoke about openness and transparency. The tribunal must publish its reports as soon as they are complete rather than wait for the end of a specified period by which time people will have forgotten about them. The problem with the Mahon tribunal——

Ulick Burke (Fine Gael)
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We are discussing the exercise of discretion by the tribunal.

James Bannon (Fine Gael)
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I will talk about the Mahon tribunal.

Ulick Burke (Fine Gael)
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We are on section 2. I have allowed you some latitude, Senator, and would like to invite the Minister to respond. We are discussing the discretion of the tribunal.

James Bannon (Fine Gael)
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The Bill is very important to the people of this nation.

Ulick Burke (Fine Gael)
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The matter may be important, but it is not relevant to section 2.

Dick Roche (Wicklow, Fianna Fail)
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I wish to be helpful and understand that Senator Bannon is anticipating my reply. I will not be as rude as Senator Brady has been by suggesting we should not hold our breath while waiting for Senator Bannon's party to return to government. I wish the Senator well.

The Commissions of Investigation Act 2004 contains several features aimed at cost control and management based on the experience of tribunals. Under the Act, a statement of cost must be prepared and a commission must use a competitive tendering process. It is not possible, however, to change half way through a process, which is the situation in which we find ourselves here. As I said to Senator Bannon, the learning experience in this area has been especially costly.

Senator Bannon asked reasonably what will happen when the tribunal finishes. We will be back in the position we were in before the tribunal was established. However, if complaints of wrongdoing come forward we will have recourse to the devices which have been put in place, including those provided in the Ethics in Public Office Act 1995, the Prevention of Corruption (Amendment) Act 2001 and the Commissions of Investigation Act 2004. The Oireachtas always has the option to establish new tribunals should the need arise. One cannot talk about putting in place a permanent tribunal however.

Senator Bannon made the point that the House has some responsibility in this area. When the tribunal was originally established, I was not a fan. It is a matter of record that I said we would be better served by spending the money on providing the fraud squad with the resources it needed, including forensic accounting skills. Those resources are still not in place. That was then and we are where we are. In the context of fees and tendering, Senator Bannon said it might be better to establish a standing committee of the Houses. I am not sure that is the case. The Roman poet, Juvenal, asked "Who guards the guardians, who judges the judges?" As I am not sure what the answer is, I will not ask who judges the judges.

Brendan Ryan (Labour)
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No one.

Dick Roche (Wicklow, Fianna Fail)
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However, if we were to be the guardians and the judges of our own behaviour, the process would probably not have much validity in the public view. Perhaps in the longer term it will. While the architecture of processes and procedures in place is novel and largely untried, it certainly represents an improvement on the system in which there was either nothing or a tribunal. Now, one has a variety of options.

Cyprian Brady (Fianna Fail)
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I thank the Minister for attending. He has a great deal of experience of planning and related matters. He will bring that experience to bear in his portfolio.

James Bannon (Fine Gael)
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I join Senator Brady in thanking the Minister for coming to the House to take the Bill. He promised on 17 November that he would bring the legislation to the House before Christmas and was true to his word. Since becoming Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government, Deputy Roche has been sending out reasonably good vibes which we await to be translated into action in terms of introducing legislation for the betterment of our country.

Michael McCarthy (Labour)
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I thank the Minister for attending. It has just dawned on me that on the last occasion on which he was in the House, he left before I had a chance to congratulate him on his appointment. I do so now. I recall meeting the Minister in late 1992, though the he may not, when he was canvassing for the Seanad in west Cork.

Cyprian Brady (Fianna Fail)
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The Senator must have been in short trousers.

Michael McCarthy (Labour)
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I was learning from the master at that stage. I wish the Minister well in his post.

Dick Roche (Wicklow, Fianna Fail)
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I thank Senators for their kindness, particularly Senator McCarthy. I remember that election trail and have often said that people who have the stamina for a Seanad campaign are made of very stern stuff indeed. When Éamon de Valera wrote the Constitution and envisaged the Seanad electoral system, it was in the days before the general availability of the car. The campaigners then must have been people of iron and steel.

I compliment every Member and am grateful for their comments and kindness in passing the Bill expeditiously.

Ulick Burke (Fine Gael)
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When is it proposed to sit again?

Cyprian Brady (Fianna Fail)
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At 10.30 a.m. tomorrow.