Seanad debates

Thursday, 2 December 2004

10:30 am

Photo of Mary O'RourkeMary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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The Order of Business is No. 1, statements on Aer Lingus, to be taken at the conclusion of the Order of Business and to conclude not later than 1.30 p.m. with the contributions of spokespersons not to exceed 15 minutes and all other speakers not to exceed ten minutes each and the Minister to be called upon to reply not later than five minutes before the end of the statements; and No. 2, statements on the strategic task force on alcohol, second report September 2004 (resumed) to be taken at2.30 p.m. and to conclude not later than 4.30 p.m. with the contributions of Senators not to exceed ten minutes and the Minister to be called upon to reply not later than five minutes before the conclusion of the statements. There will be a sos from 1.30 p.m. to 2.30 p.m.

Michael Finucane (Fine Gael)
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Yesterday in the other House, the Taoiseach responded to questions from Deputy Kenny on the case of Detective Garda Jerry McCabe. In his reply, the Taoiseach indicated that the murderers of Detective Garda McCabe would be subject to early release. This statement has caused shock. The people in Adare were robbers and it is worth bearing in mind that the IRA and Sinn Féin stated at the time that they were not part of the patriotic movement, although they later admitted they were.

The then Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform called to Mrs. McCabe and stated in writing that these people would not be eligible for the early release programme under the Good Friday Agreement or any other agreement. It has been postulated that this is a make or break issue for the talks at present but there is a perception that Sinn Féin is holding the Government to ransom on this issue. If words mean anything, this will be classified a monumental U-turn on the part of the Government.

The GRA has stated today that there is a lack of honesty involved in this issue. In the context of what is happening in Northern Ireland I ask the Government to seriously consider this issue. It is not good enough for the Taoiseach to state, as he did yesterday, that he will have discussions with Mrs. McCabe and the representative bodies. It is a pity such discussions had not taken place before the Taoiseach made such a calculated statement in Leinster House yesterday. In that context, I am appalled, as are the people who have contacted me, at this decision of the Government.

Photo of Joe O'TooleJoe O'Toole (Independent)
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I have great sympathy for the points raised. I have discussed this issue in the House before and said many times that we in the South also have to make our contribution and put up with the release of people we would prefer to remain incarcerated. I held that position strongly, so long as such people were part of the Good Friday Agreement. Then the people involved in this case went to court and as far as I can recall — I stand to be corrected — it was determined that they were not part of the Good Friday Agreement. A clear assurance was given by the then Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform that they would not be seen as part of the Good Friday Agreement and therefore would not qualify for early release on that basis.

It now appears that there has been a new negotiation. I thoroughly object to that because it opens the floodgates. I defended the previous initiative, before the Supreme Court ruling that they did not qualify under the Good Friday Agreement but I considered that they would have to be released. However, since the Supreme Court ruling that is no longer the case. Assurances were given and the Government should not concede on this issue. It gives a bad impression and leaves the way open for this type of situation to be replicated in the future.

On a different issue, I neglected to thank the Leader yesterday for arranging for the first time a debate on the budget in Government time. I very much appreciate it, as do other Members on this side of the House. It is good to get an opportunity to have our say on the budget so quickly. I would also like to thank Senator Leyden for getting funding for €500,000 for Donamon in his constituency in County Roscommon. Senator Ryan, who had distinguished and eminent connections with that same building years ago, may have had something to do with it as well. Perhaps, between the two of them, they managed to lobby successfully.

I would imagine that the Labour Party feels a certain draught at the moment in that the socialist Taoiseach appears to be taking over its ground. We are quite confused on this side of the House. We do not know which way to look.

Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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With all due respect, that has no relevance to the Order of Business.

Photo of Joe O'TooleJoe O'Toole (Independent)
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It was often said that all those Labour Party activists who originally came from Fianna Fáil houses might go back in that direction. I am not sure how Senator Ryan might feel about that, but——

Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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Senator O'Toole, on the Order of Business.

Photo of Joe O'TooleJoe O'Toole (Independent)
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——it is something we should look at.

Photo of Brendan RyanBrendan Ryan (Labour)
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I do not propose to elaborate on my connection with Donamon but if any Member wants to buy me a pint later I will share the secret with him or her.

I do not want to say much about Detective Garda McCabe. I simply want to quote, briefly, from a witness, as reported in The Irish Times today: "They didn't give them a chance, a caution or shag all. They started shooting into the Garda car through the windows, where the two plainclothes men were in the front seat." In my political career I have been among the most vocal of those who have been critical of the Garda Síochána. In particular, I have often been critical of the Special Branch. However, it is an outrage that a political party in this State, as part of the condition for doing what it should have done years ago, would say to our Government, in effect: "We won't observe the laws of democracy and give up our guns unless you release from prison people who were robbing a bank for personal gain, with whom we have denied all connection when it suited us." I could be critical of the Government, but the fundamental question is about the nature of a political party, which is popular among our young people and which regards that as an acceptable demand to put to a sovereign government.

I believe our sovereign Government is wrong and I could give out about it, but I will not do so. I am more concerned with the nature of a political party that thinks people who cold-bloodedly murder members of the Garda Síochána for personal gain, during a ceasefire, and with whom they originally denied all connection, should be classified somehow or other as among the heroes of Irish republicanism. I will never hand over — I hope Fianna Fáil never does either — the title of republican to the type of people who would do what I have just described. I am sorry that Fianna Fáil and the Government have been put in a position of having to make that compromise. I have nothing but contempt for a political party that has used its position to apparently extract such a concession from our Government.

On other matters, as Senator O'Toole said, I gather that socialism, like Alice in Wonderland, is now whatever the Taoiseach calls it. It is somewhat akin to Louis XIV saying, "L'état, c'est moi", socialism is also c'est moi now, so far as I can see.

John Dardis (Progressive Democrats)
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Or c'est nous.

Photo of Brendan RyanBrendan Ryan (Labour)
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There was some controversy in the House about overseas development aid. We had a promise in 2000 that became a promise in 2002, which was withdrawn last week, to be replaced by a new promise to the effect that a revised target of 0.5% of GDP would be reached by 2007. It is now clear from the budget and from the Estimates for the future that this target will not be met. What is the real situation about promises such as this? Another one was made yesterday, that the super-rich who pay no tax had better watch out because next year the Taoiseach is coming to get them. Is this a real promise or is it like the one he made and broke twice to the poor of the world?

11:00 am

Michael Brennan (Progressive Democrats)
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I, too, spoke in this House on 20 October on the Detective Garda McCabe murder in Adare. We all appreciate the concerns and the matter of peace in our country. On that occasion I asked for clarification regarding a letter from the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform in the previous Government to the McCabe family. As chairman of Limerick County Council I stood in Adare when many fine speeches and commitments were given as regards the killers of Detective Garda McCabe. While we deeply appreciate the peace initiatives and all the discussions that have taken place which have included so many people, it is hard to credit that there have been no talks with the McCabe family and Detective Garda Ben O'Sullivan, despite the commitments that such discussions would take place.

The commitment was given that the perpetrators did not qualify under the terms of the Good Friday Agreement. In that regard the peace of our country is a separate issue. I call on the Taoiseach and the Government to hold discussions with the McCabe family and Detective Garda O'Sullivan at this late stage before a decision is made and to take their views into consideration.

Photo of Ulick BurkeUlick Burke (Fine Gael)
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I support the calls from this side of the House asking the Taoiseach to immediately rethink his statements of yesterday. It is nothing short of revolting that we can see the Taoiseach saying nothing stands between a final settlement or none at all, apart from the question of the release of these murderers. He has also said that it is part of the package to restore powersharing in the North of Ireland. If we have to acknowledge those statements as the best that this Taoiseach can do for the family of Detective Garda McCabe and the Garda force throughout the land, especially given what it has been doing to protect ordinary citizens as well as themselves from murderers, we have reached a new low. It indicates that the desperation of the Taoiseach to get a settlement for his own ego is more important——

Photo of Mary WhiteMary White (Fianna Fail)
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That is ridiculous.

Photo of Martin ManserghMartin Mansergh (Fianna Fail)
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That is disgraceful.

Photo of Geraldine FeeneyGeraldine Feeney (Fianna Fail)
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That is the lowest of the low. The Cathaoirleach should make the Senator withdraw that statement.

Photo of Ulick BurkeUlick Burke (Fine Gael)
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——than the life of a garda.

(Interruptions).

Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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That is a political charge and I ask the Senator to withdraw it.

Photo of Ulick BurkeUlick Burke (Fine Gael)
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It is all political.

Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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It is a political charge.

Photo of Ulick BurkeUlick Burke (Fine Gael)
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The Taoiseach's own statements are political. I acknowledge that and the Cathaoirleach is totally correct.

Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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Is the Senator making a personal or a political charge?

Photo of Ulick BurkeUlick Burke (Fine Gael)
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I am making a political charge and you, a Chathaoirligh, acknowledged it as such in your last statement.

Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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I do not want-——

Photo of Ulick BurkeUlick Burke (Fine Gael)
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I ask that this House request the Taoiseach to clearly indicate what his priorities are — the release of those murderers or the settlement of the situation in the North of Ireland.

Photo of Martin ManserghMartin Mansergh (Fianna Fail)
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I absolutely deplore those remarks which are totally undeserved.

Photo of Mary O'RourkeMary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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Hear, hear.

Photo of Martin ManserghMartin Mansergh (Fianna Fail)
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I abhor as much as anybody in this House the murder of Detective Garda McCabe and the attempted murder of Detective Garda Ben O'Sullivan and that is so from the day it happened. It was stated at the time by the then Government, and by the then Opposition which was ourselves, that those who committed the murder — nobody knew on the day who did it — would not be treated in the same way as other prisoners. That has happened. It is a nonsense to talk about early release. We are at least six years on. Everybody else from the Provisional IRA has been released and they have not.

Photo of Ulick BurkeUlick Burke (Fine Gael)
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That is a denial of the Agreement.

Photo of Martin ManserghMartin Mansergh (Fianna Fail)
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I would read the Supreme Court judgment on that issue. If the Supreme Court decides whether people are eligible or not eligible for release, there is also a separate question of whether the Executive decides to do that.

Photo of Ulick BurkeUlick Burke (Fine Gael)
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What about the other tactics of some Ministers?

Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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Order, please. There is no need for long statements on the Order of Business.

Photo of Martin ManserghMartin Mansergh (Fianna Fail)
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Perhaps I might be listened to in silence.

Senators:

Hear, hear.

Photo of Martin ManserghMartin Mansergh (Fianna Fail)
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We are talking about acts of completion and completion all round. However, unpopular it is, and believe me it is as unpopular in Tipperary as it is in County Limerick even to be contemplating the release, but if the Government has to do its duty in the national interest——

Fergal Browne (Fine Gael)
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It does not.

Photo of Martin ManserghMartin Mansergh (Fianna Fail)
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——and in the interest of peace, I commend the Taoiseach and the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform for stating clearly and honestly what would be involved. We too have to play our part, however repugnant that may be to us.

Photo of David NorrisDavid Norris (Independent)
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It is obvious it is time we had a reasoned debate on Northern Ireland. One always listens with respect to what Senator Mansergh has to say and he has played a significant role in these events. I was astonished to hear him suggest the Executive could overrule without disquiet a decision of the Supreme Court. That seems to be a very strange doctrine.

Photo of Martin ManserghMartin Mansergh (Fianna Fail)
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I am not overruling.

Photo of David NorrisDavid Norris (Independent)
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It is perfectly clear they were not supposed to be operating as members of the Provisional IRA when they committed this bank heist — that is what it was — and those who did it were thugs, robbers, murderers and gangsters. If one accepts that membership of the IRA exonerates people of this crime, of what else does it exonerate them? Is it from activities that are not part of this organisation which most people did not support? It is time we had a debate on this issue. We are always told that intemperate language in the Seanad will cause problems and we have to be careful about what we say. I think we are too diffident. I would welcome the opportunity to say that somebody should have told Dr. Ian Paisley that he should be more circumspect. His recent statements indicate he may have talked himself out of an agreement. I do not believe that a proper relationship can start by the public humiliation of one party, however one may dislike that party.

I seek a resumption of the debate on No. 15, statements on the Middle East. That would provide us with an opportunity and perhaps the Leader would be able to ask the Taoiseach how he feels about the praise publicly heaped upon him both last night in Trinity College and this morning on the airwaves by Senator John McCain for the support, assistance, help and co-operation given by this Government in the prosecution of the Gulf War. It is important to have this debate and we should have it continually. There was a Sherlock Holmes story in which they talked about the dog in the night.

Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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It is not necessary for the Senator to quote Sherlock Holmes to make his point.

Photo of David NorrisDavid Norris (Independent)
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There is an ominous silence out of Falluja. Reporters are excluded. We have heard almost nothing for a week and we are entitled to know what is going on——

Photo of Joe O'TooleJoe O'Toole (Independent)
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Hear, hear.

Photo of David NorrisDavid Norris (Independent)
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——particularly in light of the statement by the International Red Cross — I wonder how the Taoiseach feels about this — that all sides, including the US and the United Kingdom, were behaving with complete contempt for human rights.

Photo of Terry LeydenTerry Leyden (Fianna Fail)
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I express my thanks to Senator O'Toole for his good wishes in regard to the provision in the budget for the Cuisle respite and holiday centre, which is a national centre for the Irish Wheelchair Association.

Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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The Senator has made his point.

Photo of Terry LeydenTerry Leyden (Fianna Fail)
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I recognise also Senator Ryan's involvement in the Divine Word Missionaries in the past. Divine Word Missionaries' loss was the Seanad's gain.

Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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On the Order of Business.

Photo of Terry LeydenTerry Leyden (Fianna Fail)
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I was never a seminarian.

Photo of David NorrisDavid Norris (Independent)
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The Senator was not a novice either.

Photo of Terry LeydenTerry Leyden (Fianna Fail)
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Senator Ryan has left a tremendous legacy in the area of Donamon.

I congratulate the Minister for Finance, Deputy Cowen, on one of the best budgets ever presented which will make it into the Guinness Book of Records. It is the first budget in which there were no increases——

Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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That is not in order on the Order of Business. The Senator congratulated the Minister last night in the debate and that is sufficient.

Photo of Terry LeydenTerry Leyden (Fianna Fail)
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I did not get a chance. I was too busy celebrating the budget last night with my constituents.

Photo of Noel CoonanNoel Coonan (Fine Gael)
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I support my colleague, Senator Finucane, on the issue of the McCabe murderers. In my political career to date I have never seen such an outpouring of horror and revulsion from members of the Garda community. The House will be aware I come from Templemore. They are aghast at this U-turn by the Taoiseach. Their families and the community in general are horrified. It is said that Senator Mansergh makes an attempt to minimise a dastardly act which was the cold-blooded murder of a member of the security forces of the State which uphold law and order. Like other speakers, I call on the Leader to make our feelings known to the Taoiseach and the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform so that they will rethink this issue. This has nothing to do with the peace process. This was an act of cold-blooded murder. If we are to reach an agreement, sometimes we can go a step too far and to my way of thinking this is a step too far.

Maurice Hayes (Independent)
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I too deplore murder wherever it takes place. I deeply sympathise with Mrs. McCabe. She should not have heard the news in the way she heard it on the public airwaves——

Photo of David NorrisDavid Norris (Independent)
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Hear, hear.

Maurice Hayes (Independent)
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——but there may be reasons for that. I spoke about this before and people did not like it and they are not going to like it again. We are in severe danger of applying a different moral tariff to the murder of a policeman north of the Border and the murder of a policeman south of the Border. While I think of Mrs. McCabe I think also of the families of 307 members of the RUC who were murdered. They were not killed in glorious battle or shoot-outs. They were shot in the back, shot in front of their families, killed on their way back from the golf club, shot having a quiet drink in a pub. We want to think of those people too and they have paid a price. Senator Mansergh is right when he says there are things that have to be done. As Michael Longley said in his poem, Ceasefire:

I get down on my knees and do what must be done

And kiss Achilles' hand, the killer of my son.

It is hard, it is painful, it is terrible but I plead with Senators to think of those RUC widows and ask themselves what they would think if somehow their suffering was to be discounted because they lived on the wrong side of the Border or the wrong side of a struggle.

Kathleen O'Meara (Labour)
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After what Senator Maurice Hayes has said, everything has been said on this issue and it is time we stopped playing politics with it.

I ask the Leader to arrange a debate on child care. I am aware it will not be possible to have such a debate before Christmas. It is an important issue which I raised in the context of the budget debate last night. The care and education of pre-school children is an urgent matter and I ask the Leader to arrange a debate as early as possible in the new year.

Photo of John Gerard HanafinJohn Gerard Hanafin (Fianna Fail)
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Regarding Detective Garda Jerry McCabe, I agree with Senator Maurice Hayes who said it all.

Photo of Paul CoghlanPaul Coghlan (Fine Gael)
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I support the calls for a debate on the North when appropriate. On the RTE programme entitled "Tale of Two Cities" which was shown recently, the man to whom tribute was paid today was a shining example of all that is good and predominant about the city of Limerick. We should not forget that the lawlessness which is highlighted is confined to 100 or 120 people. In view of the huge divergence between the State solicitor, Mr. Murray, and the views of the Minister for Defence, all sincerely held views on both sides, I call on the Leader to ask the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform to come to this House to debate the growth of these criminal gangs.

Photo of Mary WhiteMary White (Fianna Fail)
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The winners in last night's budget were people with disabilities who have been allocated €2.5 billion——

Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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Sorry, Senator, there was a debate on the budget last night to which you contributed. That was sufficient.

Photo of Mary WhiteMary White (Fianna Fail)
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I would like to air my views again. I made a presentation on child care last week to the Fianna Fáil Parliamentary Party. Everyone in the room supported what I said.

Photo of Brendan RyanBrendan Ryan (Labour)
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Except the Minister for Finance.

Photo of Mary WhiteMary White (Fianna Fail)
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The Minister said yesterday——

Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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We cannot have a debate on the budget.

Photo of Mary WhiteMary White (Fianna Fail)
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——that we must make choices. I am confident that in next year's budget the cost of child care and the child care issue will be addressed as dramatically as the needs of people with disabilities. Senator O'Meara might not like to hear that.

(Interruptions).

Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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Order, please. I call Senator Cummins.

Photo of Maurice CumminsMaurice Cummins (Fine Gael)
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I want to raise the issue of the Taoiseach's statement yesterday on the proposed release of the killers of Detective Garda Jerry McCabe. I agree with Senator Brennan that the matter should have been handled in a different manner and his wife and family should have been consulted before any such statement was made. People quoted the previous Minister, Deputy O'Donoghue, and the Taoiseach. On 18 May, the current Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform said he believed Mrs. McCabe should and would be in a position to trust the Government. Obviously that is water under the bridge. It is another broken commitment.

While I respect the comments of Senator Hayes on the matter——

Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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I wish to point out that the only one who can reply to the Order of Business is the Leader of the House.

Photo of Maurice CumminsMaurice Cummins (Fine Gael)
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I will bow to that rule. On the comments of Senator Hayes, my party was always to the forefront in offering sympathy to the families of the policemen murdered in Northern Ireland, who came under the terms of the Good Friday Agreement. The Taoiseach is on record saying that these murderers are not part of the Good Friday Agreement, which is why the distinction should be clarified.

Photo of James BannonJames Bannon (Fine Gael)
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I was surprised to hear Senator Leyden's congratulatory remarks.

Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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On the Order of Business, Senator.

Photo of James BannonJames Bannon (Fine Gael)
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Last week he was like a rabbit caught in headlights on a lonely Roscommon road as a result of the withdrawal of decentralisation from Roscommon.

(Interruptions).

Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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Has Senator Bannon a question for the Leader of the House? I would like to point out that on the Order of Business Senators should not comment on contributions made by other Senators.

Photo of James BannonJames Bannon (Fine Gael)
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Yesterday was the day for giving, but from now until this time next year will be days of taking from the general public.

Photo of David NorrisDavid Norris (Independent)
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Hear, hear.

Photo of James BannonJames Bannon (Fine Gael)
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I ask the Leader to invite the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government to the House for a debate on properly financing and resourcing local government. Budgets will be drawn up throughout the country over the next couple of months and many local authorities are starved of funding to deliver services to the public.

(Interruptions).

Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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Order, please.

Photo of James BannonJames Bannon (Fine Gael)
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Local authorities will have no option but to impose higher development charges, service charges and so on. This will be the reality in every townland and parish throughout the country.

Fergal Browne (Fine Gael)
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I have never before spoken on Northern Ireland but I feel I must do so on this occasion. I am totally opposed to the possible release of the murderers of Detective Garda Jerry McCabe. The main difference is that this murder occurred during a so-called ceasefire. I recall Sinn Féin and Gerry Adams at the time distancing themselves from what happened and saying it had nothing to do with Sinn Féin-IRA. As usual, they backtracked subsequently and created a link. I am getting sick and tired of Sinn Féin adopting an À la carte approach to democracy. We have seen this recently in regard to associations by a certain Deputy in the other House where close associates of his were intercepted on the way to a proposed bank robbery. We cannot have this. In a democracy there is one law, one police force and one army, and there cannot be anything else.

Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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I already ruled that there should not be statements on the Order of Business. Too many statements are being made today.

Fergal Browne (Fine Gael)
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It is time to have proper scrutiny. It is ironic that a certain Minister's personal life is being scrutinised while the national media did not pursue the IRA's association with a sitting Member of the other House, which is a dangerous precedent.

Photo of Mary O'RourkeMary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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The Acting Leader of the Opposition, Senator Finucane, raised the matter of the murder of Detective Garda Jerry McCabe and the Taoiseach's words in the other House yesterday. I note that he used the words "comprehensive settlement". I did not speak with the Taoiseach, but I know from his demeanour that it caused him great pain to say what he did. This is of no comfort to the widow of the murdered man and to Ben O'Sullivan. This is not something the Taoiseach entered into lightly or said off the top of his head. It was a deeply emotional moment for him and for everyone concerned. It is in the context of a "comprehensive settlement" that we echo the words of Senator Maurice Hayes. I understand the Acting Leader and many other Senators who raised the issue. It is one of significant poignancy and soul-searching for everyone involved.

Senator O'Toole had great sympathy for the points raised. I thank him for the comment on the budget. One does not know where to look in the House to find a socialist. Perhaps one could look over here.

Photo of Joe O'TooleJoe O'Toole (Independent)
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The PDs and the Labour Party might exchange places.

Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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The Leader should reply to the Order of Business.

Photo of Mary O'RourkeMary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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Senator Ryan came into focus today in regard to the earlier part of his life.

Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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That comment is not warranted.

Photo of Mary O'RourkeMary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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It was a distinguished path.

Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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Please reply to the Order of Business.

Photo of Mary O'RourkeMary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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The Senator said something of great interest when commenting on the Detective Garda McCabe murder. He said that no party should ever hand over the title of republican to quasi-republicans. The Senator also asked for a debate on overseas development aid and condemned the fact that it will not be until next year's budget that the super-rich will be nabbed.

Senator Brennan recounted his deep feelings regarding the murder of Detective Garda McCabe, particularly given that the Senator was chairman of Limerick County Council at the time it happened. Senator Ulick Burke asked what were the Taoiseach's priorities. I intend to speak to the Taoiseach today, if possible, to inform him of the views of this House. I accept the Senator withdrew what he said because everybody knows the Taoiseach's words were heartfelt but very difficult for him. Senator Mansergh stated that he, as do we all, abhors the murder of Detective Garda McCabe and the attempted murder of Detective Garda Ben O'Sullivan. He stated that there are acts of completion in which we, in our various roles, have a part to play.

Senator Norris asked for a debate on Northern Ireland. I will inquire. However, until there is an announcement or no announcement, or an announcement that there will be no announcement, we would not add to the fount of knowledge on the North. He referred to what the US Senator said in Trinity College. I too noted that.

Senator Leyden raised the issue of the budget. As the Cathaoirleach said, the Senator had an opportunity to speak on it yesterday. He expressed his gratitude for the provision for the national centre for the Irish Wheelchair Association. Donamon is a very fine centre for wheelchair activity.

Senator Coonan asked whether, regarding the murder of Detective Garda McCabe, I would make the views of the House known to Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform. I will do that. We are scheduled to have the Minister in attendance tomorrow, but I will try to see him before then. Senator Maurice Hayes stated that while he abhors and deplores murder, we cannot have a different moral standard in one part of the country than in another. We are all in agreement with that.

Senator O'Meara asked for a debate on the care and education of pre-school children. That is a debate we must have, given that the report of the National Competitiveness Council states that children who benefit from pre-school care, be it Montessori or another, do better and do not drop out of school as much as others.

Senator Hanafin agreed with Senator Maurice Hayes on the Detective Garda McCabe murder. Senator Coghlan asked that the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform be invited to the House to debate the issue of the increase in gangs of criminals on the streets.

Senator White raised the issue of child care. She suggested that since the issue of disability was addressed this year the child care issue might be addressed next year.

Senator Cummins also raised the issue of the Taoiseach's statement on the proposed release of the killers of Detective Garda McCabe and asked that the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform come to the House to discuss it. I found it difficult to hear what Senator Bannon said. He spoke on local government and the need for the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government to come to the House. Senator Browne also raised the issue of the murder of Detective Garda McCabe.

Michael Brennan (Progressive Democrats)
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On a point of order, my request was that the Leader should request the Government to enter into discussions with the McCabe family and Detective Garda Ben O'Sullivan before any decision is reached on the peace process and to take their views into consideration.

Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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That is noted.

Order of Business agreed to.