Seanad debates
Thursday, 25 November 2004
Order of Business.
10:30 am
Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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The Order of Business is No. 1, Council of Europe Development Bank Bill 2004 — Second Stage, to be taken on the conclusion of the Order of Business and to conclude no later than 1 p.m., with the contributions of spokespersons not to exceed 15 minutes and those of all other Senators not to exceed ten minutes — the Minister to be called on to reply no later than five minutes before the conclusion of Second Stage; and No. 2, Health and Social Care Professionals Bill 2004 — Committee Stage (Resumed), to be taken from 2 p.m. until 5.30 p.m. There will be a sos from 1 p.m. to 2 p.m.
Brian Hayes (Fine Gael)
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Will the Leader organise a debate as soon as possible to discuss the shambles that is now decentralisation? One of the worst abuses of power that has ever occurred in the country was the Budget Statement read by the previous Minister for Finance, Deputy McCreevy, in respect of this issue. This was stroke politics at its best. People were led up the garden path, particularly Senator Leyden, whose Roscommon constituency now gets no jobs as a result of the announcement made yesterday.
This issue is about people's lives. We were told 10,000 people would be moved, but now it is down to 3,500. We were told that 53 towns were included in the first phase but that number is now down to 29 and there is no genuine time estimate as to when decentralisation will occur. We need immediate answers from the Government on the issue. This House had a good debate on the issue last year. We smelled a rat then and see it now. The matter has been a shambles from start to finish. The Government needs to go back to the drawing board and work out something that is sensible, strategic and in the long-term interest of the public service. Will the Leader organise a debate on the issue at the earliest possible time?
Ann Ormonde (Fianna Fail)
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It has not gone back to the drawing board.
Brian Hayes (Fine Gael)
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On a separate matter, for many months Senator Leyden has led a strong campaign in the House on the issue of trying to regularise the situation for Irish citizens who live illegally in the United States. I compliment and support him on this. However, yesterday we aired a similar situation here where we have a group in the same situation in this State campaigning for the 11,500 parents of Irish-born children who want to have their citizenship and their situation here regularised.
I agree with Senator Leyden that we must campaign hard for the Irish in America. However, he and Government Members should agree with me that we should do our best for these 11,500 parents of Irish citizens born here. This is a crucial issue. Next week we will have the opportunity to debate the Irish Nationality and Citizenship Bill with the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform. I ask the people to be generous to these Irish citizens who are in a situation where many of their parents and families will be deported. If we lecture the world and the United States about their responsibilities, we should take those responsibilities seriously at home and do for our people what we claim should happen in other countries. Will this House, which has shown more mettle and independence on the issue than the Dáil, lead the campaign on this issue? Will it work with the campaign group to get rights for this small group whose situation should be regularised?
Joe O'Toole (Independent)
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I agree that we need an early debate on decentralisation, which is a debacle. I put it to the Leader that the House was seriously misled on this issue. During our last discussion with the Minister, I asked him four times if he was certain this could be done in three years. I could see no way that it could be done in three years but felt there might be some way of making it work if there was a longer timeframe. We got the straight answer back that it would be done within the given timescale. That is what we were told. I do not know how Members on the far side feel about that.
Members of the House do their best to contribute to debates and I listened to speaker after speaker from the Government side defending decentralisation, welcoming it and seeking to move things forward. Communities' hopes have been raised only to be dashed again. There is something significantly wrong here. It is grossly unfair and it should not be happening. This will rightly become a major party political football because it has been used very cynically.
I am concerned at the impact this will have on politics in small communities. I will not list all the towns affected, as it will be done by other people. These towns, which looked forward to an injection of additional resources and people into their areas, have already been making provision for decentralisation. Local town councils and urban councils have held meetings to put together structures, yet now they are simply being dropped from the scheme. Not alone will the decentralisation programme not happen within three years but apparently we will not see anything happening until 2008.
This is utterly wrong. I would welcome somebody on the other side of the House saying, whether he or she agrees or disagrees, that what is happening is wrong. This is the kind of thing that brings politics into disrepute. We will all be tarred with the one brush of making promises that are not reflected in outcomes. This was unnecessary. We all saw it was impossible to do this in three years, however good the idea. Now it looks like it will not happen at all because not only is the timescale wrong but other things are wrong as well.
I did not have a chance to discuss the matter with the Leader, therefore, I will not propose an amendment to the Order of Business, which it is my instinct to do, but we need to discuss it next week or else we will need to have a vote on why we should not.
Brendan Ryan (Labour)
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We are almost at the stage where we do not notice the broken promises. A solemn promise to the United Nations was broken last week and a promise made in the Dáil on decentralisation was broken this week. The credibility of the Department of Finance is now at issue because we were assured that decentralisation would be self-financing, which it will be in 25 years time. According to the body investigating the matter, it will pay for itself by 2026. Did the Department, with all its skills and expertise, fail to make the calculation that Phil Flynn and his committee was able to make in six months or was it as we all suspect, no more than a con job?
I am sure it is no more than a coincidence that the Laoighis-Offaly constituency, served by the Minister and Minister of State, survived all of the ups and downs.
Brendan Ryan (Labour)
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It was entirely coincidental, it just happened to be the place that perfectly suited.
The advisory committee on development co-operation and all the NGOs dealing with it opposes the decision, which appears to be going ahead, to move Development Co-operation Ireland to Limerick. We know what the Government thinks of the lobbying of NGOs; they should stop doing it and should be prevented from doing it, according to the Minister of State, who I am not allowed to call a boy, even though it is very offensive to boys to associate him with them.
Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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Senator Ryan should speak on the Order of Business and no further reference should be made to Ministers in that manner.
Brendan Ryan (Labour)
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I apologise. I should never have called him a boy because boys are better than that.
John Minihan (Progressive Democrats)
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That is an outrageous statement to make about a Minister. Senator Ryan should be asked to withdraw the remark.
John Minihan (Progressive Democrats)
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That is not in the spirit of debate in this House.
Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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I agree with Senator Minihan. It is not right to make derogatory remarks about Ministers just to withdraw them. It is very wrong.
Brendan Ryan (Labour)
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I am sorry, a Chathaoirligh. On occasion I heard things said in this House about Members of my party from the other House which were not withdrawn but because I am not the sensitive, touchy person others appear to be I did not mind. The Cathaoirleach is in charge and I fully accept his ruling.
Brendan Ryan (Labour)
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In the spirit of this House I withdraw it unequivocally because that is the way I have always done my business in this House.
Senator Brian Hayes raised the matter of the parents of Irish-born children. As he said there are 11,000 such children. The Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform does not know how many parents of children in the State, who are citizens by birth, are illegally here. It does not know and, apparently, it does not want to find out. Will the Department of Health and Children led by the Tánaiste, which has a responsibility for all children in the State, ascertain how many children who are citizens of the State have been deported with their parents and how many are facing deportation? Furthermore, if we deport children who are Irish citizens, what are the legal implications and what obligations will arise in the future when they return as adults, as they will almost certainly do?
This issue cries out for a humane response because of the human suffering involved. It also cries out for common sense because we are building up problems for the future. It is necessary that we quantify how many children are involved and ascertain what the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform proposes to do about them. How many children who are Irish citizens have already been made to leave because of the deportation of their parents? In addition, how many children who are Irish citizens have been left behind by their deported parents and what are we doing about them?
John Gerard Hanafin (Fianna Fail)
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I agree with the calls for a debate on decentralisation. No doubt the Minister was ambitious for Ireland; that is a phrase we will all remember. He wanted to decentralise within three years. I remember distinctly that everything was predicated on nobody being forced to go within three years.
Brian Hayes (Fine Gael)
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He was the first one to be forced to move.
John Gerard Hanafin (Fianna Fail)
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In conjunction with Phil Flynn and the implementation committee and with the Association of Higher Civil and Public Servants, the timetable has now been deferred but decentralisation will still go ahead and Fianna Fáil will deliver for Ireland.
John Gerard Hanafin (Fianna Fail)
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Will the Leader arrange a debate on SDS at the earliest opportunity with the Minister for Communications, Marine and Natural Resources? At present there appear to be two opposite views in An Post. An Post management has requested the closure of SDS on the basis of its figures but the union's figures appear to be different. It would be worthwhile to have a debate to see if we can tease out the matter and save some of the 270 jobs involved.
James Bannon (Fine Gael)
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I support the calls for a debate on decentralisation even though the promises relating to my county have been kept in regard to 159 jobs in Longford and 299 in Mullingar.
James Bannon (Fine Gael)
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In the first referendum on the Nice treaty which was rejected by the Irish people, concerns were expressed about the role of the Oireachtas in regard to decisions taken by the Council of Ministers in Europe. At the time of the second referendum we were promised that the Oireachtas, particularly this House, would have a greater say in vetting legislation and directives coming from Europe. We are on the eve of another referendum on the constitution for Europe and people will not be conned a second time with regard to referenda. It is important that the Leader would inform us as to when this will happen, what has been done to date and if any arrangements have been put in place to properly resource this House with regard to vetting this legislation. We are not all lawyers and facilities need to be put in place to assist us in the scrutiny of EU legislation. I hope she will make a statement on this matter or arrange a debate on it.
Terry Leyden (Fianna Fail)
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I request the Leader to arrange a debate next week in regard to Phil Flynn's report on the decentralisation programme, which was approved by the Government. The programme requires an enormous commitment. There is disappointment that the 230 jobs in the Land Registry in Roscommon town are not now coming on stream. However, it must be borne in mind that the Government has made a decision to decentralise 230 jobs to Roscommon and that the Opposition parties, particularly Fine Gael, never supported decentralisation and never will.
Frank Feighan (Fine Gael)
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Senator Leyden's nose is getting longer.
Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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Senator Leyden has requested a debate on decentralisation. If we debate the issue on the Order of Business, there will be no material left when we come to the debate.
David Norris (Independent)
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Would it be a help if we had a special section of the Order of Business for Senator Leyden since he is a regular performer?
Terry Leyden (Fianna Fail)
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Senator Norris has monopolised the Order of Business in the House for the past 15 years. He unashamedly makes speeches on every issue and is an expert on everything. I will not take any lectures from the other side of the House.
Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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I take great exception to Senator Leyden's comment. No one monopolises the Order of Business.
Brian Hayes (Fine Gael)
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Senator Leyden should get back to the issue of jobs.
Terry Leyden (Fianna Fail)
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It should be borne in mind that Longford-Roscommon is getting 159 jobs in the Irish Prison Service, while the new constituency of Roscommon-South Leitrim is getting decentralised jobs in Carrick-on-Shannon.
Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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The Senator cannot go into detail on the Order of Business.
Terry Leyden (Fianna Fail)
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Knock Airport is also getting 164 jobs.
James Bannon (Fine Gael)
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Fianna Fáil has lost its ability to deliver.
Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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I ask the Senator to resume his seat.
Terry Leyden (Fianna Fail)
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In 1992, when I was a Deputy and Minister of State, we secured decentralisation to Roscommon. It took ten years to bring it about even though former Taoiseach Garret FitzGerald opposed it in every possible way. In spite of the opposition of Garret FitzGerald and Deputy John Bruton, we secured decentralisation for Roscommon town and we will secure it again.
David Norris (Independent)
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Will the Leader ask the Government a number of specific questions in regard to the Gulfstream jet, whose registration number I quoted on previous occasions in the House? I understand that peace activists have logged this Gulfstream 5 aircraft landing at Shannon Airport 14 times. Is that an accurate number or is it more? Is the aircraft being used in a process known and endorsed by the CIA as "extraordinary rendition", which involves a special clandestine team of special forces, set up to evade international law for the purposes of kidnap, which is involved in the transport of suspected terrorists around the world? Is the Government aware of the statement of a former CIA member, Mr. Bob Baer, that "if you want a serious interrogation, send a prisoner to Jordan; if you want them to be tortured, send them to Syria; and if you want someone to disappear, send them to Egypt"?
David Norris (Independent)
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A Syrian-born Canadian citizen, whom I have named previously as Mr. Maher Arar, was kidnapped in JFK Airport and then taken to Washington DC, after which — probably on this jet through Shannon Airport — he was taken to Syria and tortured. The American Government is now in court on this issue.
David Norris (Independent)
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Can it be confirmed that this jet was used, that it landed at Shannon Airport and that, therefore, the Government is complicit in the violation of international law and the commission of serious war crimes?
Timmy Dooley (Fianna Fail)
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The Senator is making a speech and what he says is rubbish.
David Norris (Independent)
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The people are entitled to answers to these questions. Similar questions were raised in the other House yesterday to which the Government gave no answers. I honour the Leader for putting on the record of this House that she had failed to get answers to these questions. We are entitled to know if our airspace and facilities are being violated by the United States in the commission of international war crimes.
Timmy Dooley (Fianna Fail)
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The Senator violates our airspace every day of the week in this House.