Seanad debates

Thursday, 13 November 2003

10:30 am

Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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I welcome Ms Banotti, a Member of the European Parliament since 1984, to Seanad Éireann. It is a privilege to have her here to address the House under Standing Order 52(A)

Ms Banotti, MEP:

I thank the Cathaoirleach for his warm welcome and also thank the Leader of the House, Senator O'Rourke, who wrote to me on the subject of MEPs addressing the Seanad. It is customary on occasions such as this to express how delighted one is to be invited here. I am not merely delighted, I am thrilled to be here.

Ms Banotti, MEP:

When elected to the European Parliament in 1984 one of the first suggestions I made was that MEPs be required, not invited or allowed, to participate in some aspect of discussions here on European legislation. I suggested we should be called upon to participate in debates and to inform our colleagues in the Oireachtas about the work we were doing, how we were going about it and how it could be of extreme importance to the work being done in both Houses. Unfortunately, MEPs were not even a twinkle in Mr. de Valera's eye when drafting the Constitution. I was told again and again that such a matter would have to be put to the people by way of referendum. Happily the Leader of the House decided she knows best, as she does on many issues. I thank her for inviting me here and hope it is a tradition that will continue.

Ms Banotti, MEP:

The volume of legislation that has gone through my hands in the past 19 years is staggering. Some time ago, I was highly unimpressed by the then Oireachtas committee on third legislation, which MEPs were allowed to attend but at which they could not speak. At the three meetings of the committee which I attended, a report was introduced and passed over because it had since been voted into legislation.

Ms Banotti, MEP:

The Oireachtas Joint Committee on European Affairs is doing a good job. It is interesting for us, as Members of the European Parliament, to consider how our colleagues at home tease out matters. Only one member state – Denmark – has a parliamentary committee at which real discussions on European legislation takes place before it is voted on.

Ms Banotti, MEP:

As I am the first MEP to have the privilege to address this House I will give Senators a brief idea of how we go about our work. Many Senators may have already been to the European Parliament. Each MEP is entitled to a full place on one parliamentary committee of which there are 19. Many MEPs are supplementary members of various other committees. For example, I am a member of the Civil Liberties Committee which deals with issues such as immigration and asylum. I am also a member of the Petitions Committee. It was as a member of that committee that I was invited to take on the role of President's mediator on matters relating to abducted children. I was appointed because the committee was receiving a considerable number of requests from parents whose children had been abducted. It was decided it was best to appoint one person to deal with these often delicate and dangerous cases. I have been involved in that work for eight years and have been re-appointed by five successive Presidents of the Parliament. The issue is, no doubt, of interest to many Senators.

I will now try to give Senators a brief idea of the kind of work MEPs do. It may sound like a repetition of what Senators do as part of their daily work. I made a list of items on which I have spoken in the past week. My colleagues in the European Parliament are amazed at the amount of issues with which Irish politicians are expected to deal. Some years ago I had, for a brief time, a German researcher working with me in Brussels. After about three weeks he expressed his disbelief at the volume of work created in the office. He told me that all he had to do when working for a German colleague was to recycle the odd article for various magazines.

The type of intimacy that we, as Irish parliamentarians, have with our electorate is almost unknown in many other countries. Within the European Parliament some Members are elected from national list systems. We may think we have a problem making our work known here but that does not matter greatly in many other countries where one's party decides one's place on the list. The party also decides if one is not on the list. The situation has often arisen where a Member who has been active in the Parliament – the reason he was elected to it in the first instance – is not put on the list the next time round because he did not spend enough time at home doing whatever was required to get him included on it.

In the past three days I have spoken at six conferences on diabetes – it was diabetes week in the Parliament and I have done a great deal of work in that area. Last Sunday, with the Dublin Simon Community, I viewed services for homeless people. I promised the organisation I would inform the House that its main concern is not the work initially associated with it, but that of moving people on to permanent housing. That is a really big issue for them. I have dealt with several cases of child abduction. I have spoken to the pharmaceutical industry about three pieces of legislation being introduced. I have also spoken to various people concerned about the recognition of professional qualifications. I have examined food law and been lobbied by a very well known company in this country which is being dragged in front of the District Court, as we would put it, for selling a jar of capers that is not labelled in at least three different languages, one of which must be English or Irish. I will refer to that area later, simply because, I regret to say, that whenever something silly arises or something goes wrong, it has been customary and really useful to be able to blame Europe. We are certainly blamed very regularly.

Several people, including publishers and musical rights people, have contacted me about legislation going through the Parliament. Debt cancellation is another issue, as is stem cell research. One thing that must be recognised when we are working on legislation in the European Parliament is that we can have a very large, lumpy piece of legislation, with a resolution drafted from the body of the report. Many issues may be dealt with in that report, but certain lobby groups will trawl through legislation to see if there is something they can get their teeth into or that is against their opinions. I felt a little sorry for some Members, since I am sure they experience this more than I, because as I was crossing the road to come here, a little old lady raced across screaming, "You are Mary Banotti, are you not?" and when I said I was she said, "You voted for gays and lesbians, you filthy pig." I thought, "Oh dear", and I hope Senators do not have to face that too much. They should beware of her. I think she is outside the door with a couple of barricades to catch Members on their way out.

Photo of Mary O'RourkeMary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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I am going out the back door.

Ms Banotti, MEP:

I am sure many Senators have had a fair amount of experience in that regard. I have tried in my own work to publish a monthly newsletter in one of the Dublin free sheets, hoping some of the information will get out. One must accept that most MEPs have, at this stage, become almost resigned to being treated with contempt and forgotten about. That is unfortunately what we must accept. While some members of the press are interested in our work, and we are lucky that both our main newspapers keep a permanent correspondent in Brussels, the kind of day-to-day work we do is largely unrecorded and almost inexplicable to the general public. We are unhappy about that. We try to do our best and are usually extremely grateful for opportunities to speak to schoolchildren and special interest groups to let them know what we are about out there.

Ms Banotti, MEP:

There are 19 committees in the Parliament, and we now have a very good spread of MEPs on them. However, when I was elected in 1984, it was clear there was only one issue about which anyone was concerned here, namely agriculture. I am not sure of the exact numbers, but I would say that well over 50% of Irish MEPs served on the agriculture committee at that stage. We had no coverage on many other issues. I was therefore extremely happy to serve on the environment committee.

In 1984, the Irish, according to various studies, had the lowest level of environmental awareness in Europe. I do not take any particular credit, but I tried to raise many of the issues that have since become very much part of the country's lingua franca. By the time of the next election in 1989, things had begun to change, largely because the schools had begun to teach children about the environment. Our low level of environmental awareness was due mainly to our being a non-industrial country not subject to the same kind of cross-border environmental disasters, such as the pollution of the Rhine and European air pollution, though there was, of course, pollution here. I emphasise that the reason we have got to grips with environmental issues in this country is European legislation. It was only because it became absolutely de rigueur for us to implement many of those European directives that we began to wake up and see that we needed to do something on the issue.

I understand I am to take questions when I finish, but I would like to talk to Senators a little about the issue of child abduction. It gets a great deal of tabloid press coverage, but it is quite a serious issue in our own country. On average, there are about 100 child abduction cases in Ireland every year. The interesting thing is that they are almost equally divided between children abducted into and abducted out of the country. The legislation that governs child abduction is known as The Hague Convention of 25 October 1980 on the Civil Aspects of International Child Abduction. It is private international law, one of many pieces of The Hague Convention legislation. It is based on an agreement made by over 63 countries to accept a basic set of rules on child abduction. The central issue in the legislation is that the custody of a child be decided in the country where the child habitually resides. If we allowed children being taken from other countries to come home here, we could not expect them to send us back our children when they are taken elsewhere. That is the basic reasoning behind the legislation.

In the seven years I have worked on the issue, a great many things have changed culturally. One of the most significant is the issue of fathers' rights. Fathers' access and interest in maintaining contact with their children in the event of a relationship breaking down has become really significant, which I greatly welcome. Another issue is that more and more people are marrying or having children across national borders, and many of them are here, since many Irish people travel abroad. I call some of my cases the holiday romance cases. One goes off to somewhere lovely and sunny where the beaches are white and someone perfectly beautiful with big, brown eyes and lots of lovely hair comes up, and one falls in love. As we all know, love takes a great deal of working on, and within two or three years things are very often beginning to happen. I can see that many of the Senators realise that. As a result, the mother generally decides that she does not like the man any more. The reasons she fell in love with the man initially, such as him having a great deal of time to lie on the beach and court her, become a slightly different matter when one has two children and there is no money coming in. That is often when young mothers decide to go home to their own mothers. When they telephone me after they have arrived home, they are surprised when I say they have to return to where they came from with the child. I have to explain to them that, under international law, they have to go back. They may be able to return home again with the child, with the agreement of the father, but this may not be possible. Much more public discussion is required about this matter. Many young people who marry outside their own culture cannot understand why they cannot return to this country with their children.

We will have to come to terms with the fact that certain countries have not signed The Hague Convention. When children reach the age of seven or eight, the rights of both parents may be quite different in religious courts in such countries. The imam of one of the mosques in Dublin spoke at a conference I organised in Dublin for the legal profession. The imam, who was a very nice man, argued that people from other countries living in Ireland should be required to obey Irish law. I am not sure that his belief is very prevalent when it comes to the rearing of children. I have discovered that trouble begins to appear around the time when children in our culture make their first holy communion.

I have to confess that I think this problem will become even bigger. That is not meant even as a mildly racist comment – I simply wish to recognise the reality that we may be dealing with these problems far more often. The President of the European Parliament decided to appoint a mediator in 1994 after hundreds of women from Belgium and France walked across Europe to the European Parliament to bring to the President's attention the fact that hundreds of children were removed from these jurisdictions, mainly to north Africa. The women could not see their children. It was decided at that time that the problem needed to be examined and addressed in the best way possible. We needed to inform ourselves, as best we could, about the issues of concern.

I have reached the end of my allotted time. I will be happy to answer questions. I reiterate that I am delighted to be here. It has been a real privilege to address the House. I thank Senators for organising this debate.

Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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I thank Ms Banotti. Before I call the next speaker I want to welcome members of Ms Banotti's family who are in the Visitors Gallery. I welcome in particular Ms Banotti's sister, the former Minister for Justice and Deputy for the Dublin North constituency, Mrs. Nora Owen. I will call a representative of each group to put questions to Ms Banotti. I will then call Senators in the manner agreed by the House this morning.

Photo of Ann OrmondeAnn Ormonde (Fianna Fail)
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I welcome Ms Banotti to the House this afternoon. I intended to speak about all sorts of matters, but I think I will have to change my thinking. Having examined the details of Ms Banotti's workload since 1984, I have to compliment her for the manner in which she has conducted her role. She has always given the impression of doing her job in a dignified and unpolitical way, which is handsome in this age. I hope that more people will adopt such a way of thinking.

Photo of Noel CoonanNoel Coonan (Fine Gael)
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The Senator is learning from it.

Photo of Ann OrmondeAnn Ormonde (Fianna Fail)
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It is particularly appropriate in the area of child abduction, in which Ms Banotti made her name, as well as health care, homelessness and the recognition of professional qualifications. I am not sure how Ms Banotti finds time to set her mind to all of these different areas, which require a great deal of research. I know she is very much still alive and I hope the word "retirement" will not enter her vocabulary. I do not like the word, which should be removed from the dictionary. Although Ms Banotti does not intend to run for the European Parliament again, I hope she will remain active.

Ms Banotti described the area of child abduction beautifully, particularly when she mentioned how easy it is for one to become trapped. She could have a huge role in deciding how best to make this country's educational system work. The problem of child abduction is faced by many people.

I have always been concerned by the fact that although a great deal of work is being done at EU level, we do not seem to be able to make a connection with citizens. I hope Ms Banotti will comment on this matter. As the Convention on the Future of Europe and the enlargement process proceed, can Ms Banotti see a way of making improvements in this regard? We are trying to make improvements, for example by giving more powers to the Joint Committee on European Affairs, by having many debates on the future of Europe in this House and by attending the Forum on Europe. We do not seem to be able to make the link, however. I blame the media for this. We have to make improvements. Perhaps next year's European elections will give a huge thrust to the debate. I would like Ms Banotti's views on this matter. I thank her for attending this debate and I wish her well in the future.

Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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Is Ms Banotti happy to take questions from a number of Senators before answering them all together?

Ms Banotti, MEP:

Yes.

Photo of Brian HayesBrian Hayes (Fine Gael)
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On behalf of the Fine Gael group, I welcome Ms Mary Banotti to the House. In particular, I welcome a distinguished former Minister for Justice, Mrs. Nora Owen, and other members of Ms Banotti's family to the Visitors Gallery. I will not make a lengthy statement because many Senators wish to ask questions. It has been a privilege for the Fine Gael Party to have been represented in the European Parliament for the last 19 years by such an energetic champion of so many social issues. Her departure from the European Parliament after next year's European elections will be a great loss to the people of Dublin.

I would like to ask Ms Banotti a question that I have wanted to put to a Member of the European Parliament since the publication of the Convention on the Future of Europe's proposals for an EU constitution. The Seanad has 60 Members and the other House has 166 Members, but there are 420 MEPs at present, a figure that will rise to over 600 after the accession states join the European Union. What are the challenges for MEPs who represent the regions of Europe in such a huge parliamentary structure? Based on her knowledge of matters in Brussels, can Ms Banotti tell the House what is the view of ordinary MEPs in respect of the consensus arrived at in the Convention on the Future of Europe? Does she feel that sufficient powers will reside at the European Parliament if this constitutional framework and institutional structure is put in place? I refer in particular to the fact that the Parliament will have the sole right, for the first time, to accept or reject a person nominated by the Council to be the President of the Commission. I think that and other powers are welcome, but can Ms Banotti give Senators her opinion about the standing of the report of the convention among her European Parliament colleagues?

Mary Henry (Independent)
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As all Senators have to declare their interests when they speak in the House, I must do so now. I walk along the South Wall in Dublin with Ms Mary Banotti most Sunday mornings. We settle all EU matters as part of our conversations. I am to blame, therefore, for some of the problems in which she has been involved. I thought it was interesting when Ms Banotti mentioned that although there are 19 committees, Irish MEPs were initially involved mainly with the agriculture committee. She was involved with the environment committee. It is considerably difficult for the smaller countries to ensure they can spread their MEPs over all the committees. The big countries have far more MEPs, but Ireland will now have fewer. Ms Banotti is right in saying that whenever things have gone wrong, it has been useful to be able to blame Europe, such as the problem pertaining to the caper jar, but we have improved matters by having a committee to scrutinise European legislation. It was decided to establish it following an address by a Dane to the National Forum on Europe, chaired by Senator Maurice Hayes. However, there continues to be appalling difficulties in getting support for research.

I am a member of the Committee on Health and Children. Some days ago an innocuous directive was introduced stating that certain medical devices were acceptable. A few weeks beforehand, I read in a medical journal about medical devices that, unfortunately, had been found to promote infection. How can we, as a committee, possibly state that we suppose this is all right? Has Ms Banotti any comments on how we could try to have better research support when considering directives? Directives come in thick and fast, especially to some committees, and we do not want to sign off on them unless we are satisfied.

A recent directive stated that chillis must not be polluted with Sudan red. I did not know whether Sudan red was good for one or whether chillis should contain it. Such directives come before us and we have a difficult time trying to sign off on them. What recommendations can Ms Banotti make as to how we can get more support?

Photo of Brendan RyanBrendan Ryan (Labour)
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Cuirim fáilte roimh Ms Banotti, Comhalta de Pharlaimint na hEorpa. Senator Henry talked about her Sunday morning walks. I remember being on holidays one August in the wilds of west Kerry and discovered that, in the house next door, a certain MEP was assiduously practising her Irish for a few weeks. One meets Ms Banotti in the strangest of places.

We saw Ms Banotti earlier today and I tried to remember for how long she has been an MEP. It is some compliment that, at the end of her current term in office, she will have been one for 20 years. How has she seen perspectives on Ireland evolve while she was an MEP, having regard to her comment on the huge rush to join the committee on agriculture 20 years ago? How does the average MEP regard Ireland today? I am not only interested in the Celtic tiger in this respect; I am especially interested to hear what MEPs regard as not so good about Ireland.

What elements of the European constitution are MEPs unhappy with? I am not trying to be awkward in asking this. We get such a diet from the neighbouring island, which is based on a slightly medieval view of the world, that it is much more interesting to hear what those who have totally accepted the concept of European integration regard to be the deficits.

What does Ms Banotti regard to be the remaining area or areas of the democratic deficit in the European project? This concerns us in Ireland, particularly since the shock of the first referendum on the Nice Treaty. It affects the way in which we advance the important European project and enable people to see why it matters.

Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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Before I call on Ms Banotti, I call on Senator Maurice Hayes, who is chairman of the National Forum on Europe.

Maurice Hayes (Independent)
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It is an enormous pleasure to see Ms Banotti in the House. Her performance as an MEP over the years has been exemplary. I have much admired her work in respect of children. I am sorry she should have chosen to trample so rudely on my dreams of holiday romance, but at my age they are only dreams, alas. It is also a pleasure to see such a distinguished former Minister as Nora Owen in the Visitors Gallery.

My question arises from the changes in powers and scope for the European Parliament envisaged under the convention, which I hope will take place. The problem, as EM Forster said, is a case of, "Only connect". How will a smaller number of MEPs connect with a constituency in Ireland and cover all the issues? Does Ms Banotti see any utility in their being consistent debates on European issues in this Chamber that would provide MEPs with some sort of sounding board for their activities?

Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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Ms Banotti may reply to those questions, after which we will take questions from other Senators.

Ms Banotti, MEP:

I thank the Senators. I am thrilled to be here and am most grateful for the kind remarks.

Ms Banotti, MEP:

Several of the Senators' questions overlap a little. I was shocked by the standard of debate during the first referendum on the Nice treaty. While my generation – most people present are probably younger than me – has a certain memory of Ireland and of Europe, I realise that anybody under the age of about 40 has a totally different set of memories about the world in which we live. When I was growing up, the biggest charity in Dublin was the Evening Herald boot fund, the purpose of which was to collect money so children could have shoes. If I mention something like this to my daughter she laughs at me. She does not believe me and thinks I am getting old and sentimental. Therefore, we have to argue the case for Europe every ten years.

Ms Banotti, MEP:

It is easy for me to hold my perspective because I have colleagues who remember the Second World War and who remember rooting in dustbins for food while it was taking place. Helmut Kohl has touched on this very well in terms of his passion for the European Union and his desire that it be supported, particularly because of the traumas experienced by his country. His attitude was still prevalent when I joined the European Parliament.

Ms Banotti, MEP:

When I joined there were less than 400 MEPs because three member states joined later. I marvelled at the size of that European Parliament in comparison to our national Parliament. However, I now regard it as having been a dinky little Parliament in which we knew everybody. It is very different today. There are 628 MEPs and there will be even more when the new member states join.

There are representatives of the applicant countries in the European Parliament in an observer capacity. They do not seem to be making a huge amount of connection with the Parliament. A Latvian representative wrote an article which the lads back home did not like too well. They suddenly decided that they would take the representative back to Latvia as a result. We are now facing a constitutional issue because we will fight tooth and nail over this. While one may not like or agree with what somebody is saying, one would die for their right to say it. We are already encountering interesting issues such as this where a member of a democratic institution, in which members are used to having disagreements, can be replaced by someone who is more in line with thinking in his or her parliament back home. The outcome of this case will be interesting.

I have noticed the new members from the accession countries are relatively old, which suggests they were politically active during the years when their countries were under a totalitarian regime. Without wishing to make a party political point, it is also interesting to note how conservative they are.

The European Parliament will be very different after enlargement and will take time to settle down. I paid some interesting visits to the accession countries, including, for example, Poland which I visited for the first time last September when we examined a number of issues. I also met a very charismatic politician, Mr. Andrzej Lepper, the Jean-Marie Le Pen of Poland, who attached himself to a particular political view as soon as he entered the European Parliament. We do not have an equivalent to Mr. Lepper or Monsieur Le Pen. Some of these politicians whose views appal one are extremely charismatic and speak excellently. I am afraid that having learned how to communicate so effectively, their point of view will gain precedence in their home countries.

Senator Brian Hayes asked about the powers of the European Parliament, which I have observed since being elected to it. I remember attending committee meetings where we sat around discussing at inordinate length legislation over which we had no influence – it made us feel good to do so. One would receive a list of up to 400 amendments proposing to change all sorts of minor details such as semi-colons. At the end of the process, one ended up with what I used to describe as a political string vest in that the legislation was full of holes and one did not know for what one was voting.

By passing the referendum on the Single European Act, boredom inducing legislation of such staggering complexity that it is little wonder nobody understood it, we introduced a system which has made the lives of MEPs considerably easier. For example, qualified majority voting was introduced for various issues, which meant that if we did not achieve a qualified majority – about 334 votes – the legislation in question would not be passed. As a result, MEPs had to get serious and make up their minds on whether they wanted legislation to be passed. As we had to stop messing around with useless, ego-boosting amendments, it perked us up considerably.

The powers of the European Parliament have increased exponentially since the enactment of the Single European Act and it has become a much more organised and professional parliament. Every step has been taken slowly and carefully. Nothing came easily or without a fight because the Council and Commission are not anxious to cede power.

The document produced by the Convention, which affects all of us regardless of what we are working on, is widely regarded as significant and brave and I am happy to support it. All legislation in the European Parliament is passed by consensus. Essentially, it is a consensus parliament, which means one does not often have wonderful days such as yesterday's sitting of the Dáil. We were delighted with Mr. Berlusconi's appearance in the European Parliament because he gave us a really good row on the floor of the Chamber, of which there are not too many. Regardless of their views on Mr. Berlusconi, all MEPs enjoyed his visit. The European Parliament does not have the same cut and thrust one finds in national parliaments.

MEPs do their work primarily in committee, which is where the real political debate takes place, particularly on major issues affecting all member states such as immigration and asylum. I confess that immigration was minimal when we first started to consider legislation on issues of this nature, to the extent that if one saw a foreigner who was not on holiday, one wondered what he or she was doing here. I felt slightly uncomfortable, therefore, taking a political position on asylum and immigration issues because many of my colleagues were from countries into which hundreds of thousands of immigrants and asylum seekers were crossing. They faced completely different circumstances from Irish MEPs. The position regarding immigration has now dramatically changed. It used to be easy when one did not have to deal with this kind of issues in the sense that, as with all legislation, it is fine provided one does not have to implement it oneself.

The impact of immigration and asylum differs among the member states. Austria, for example, a small country which borders the accession countries is the first stop for a significant number of people entering the European Union from eastern Europe. For this reason, it is a massive political issue in the country and, given the numbers involved, an important economic question also.

Apropos of committees, Senator Henry is correct that it is difficult for a small country to have a good spread of MEPs across committees. Many of the countries with electoral systems based on lists of candidates include on their list a competent man or woman in each field, for instance, education, transport and economics, to ensure they have someone elected who is politically safe and knows what he or she is talking about. They can then be appointed on the various committees. This is not the case in smaller countries but, nevertheless, Irish MEPs are much better spread around the committees than they were in the past. We work closely together and the various parties do not attack each other politically. If issues of particular concern and interest to Ireland arise, most of us vote along the same lines. We do not try to trip each other up on issues, which is important. I enjoy this and like the idea that one can be friends with people from other political parties while also having differences.

On Senator Ryan's question on the perspective on Ireland in the European Parliament, it was obvious when I entered the Parliament that our officials were brilliant at corridor networking. Ireland was too small to be considered a danger by other countries and we were universally liked because we were cute and nice to everybody and did not take strong political positions on anything. Other nationalities enjoyed our company and, being Irish, we used and continue to use this to our maximum advantage. The view of Ireland was, therefore, that the people were nice – a bit of gas – and the country was lovely and green.

Things began to change, however, when our economy made such a spectacular turnaround. At that point, people were pleased for us in the same way as a mother is pleased for a child who has just attained good results in school exams. At the same time, we could no longer play the role of being a poor, small island which could ask for money and keep quiet. We had to recognise that we had moved into a different league. Colleagues from other countries, particularly applicant countries, are interested in talking to us about how we did it. Senators will notice that a huge number of Irish consultants work in many of these countries, advising them on how we did it and how they can do it. We have had to grow up and, in that context, things have changed slightly. However, it is not unpleasant.

Everybody is aware of the cut and thrust that was involved in getting the final document from the convention. Some will jump up and down and find something wrong with it; indeed, everybody will find something wrong with it. However, it is important that it comes into force, if only for practical reasons. Several Senators were kind enough to refer to the amount of legislation I have been involved with in the last 19 years. There have been massive amounts of legislation, some of it so technical that I have regularly asked myself how a bunch of politicians, who know nothing about some of these highly technical matters, can possibly deal with it.

I remember the first time I went to the environment and consumer protection committee. Somebody told me I was in charge of the chocolate directive. I replied that the more than 40,000 people who sent me to Brussels did not send me there to talk about chocolate. I was there to change the world. I remember standing there and wondering what I should do with it.

Michael Finucane (Fine Gael)
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Senator White would be proud of Ms Banotti.

Ms Banotti, MEP:

I turned to a more experienced colleague, Hanja Maij-weggen, a famous Dutch politician who is also retiring, and asked her what to do about the chocolate directive. She gave me the best political advice ever, that I had to find the political point.

Ms Banotti, MEP:

I wondered what was the political point of a bar of chocolate. I was very inexperienced so I did the only thing I could, which was to ring Cadburys in Coolock. I asked the girl who answered the phone if anybody there knew anything about a directive. She put me through to the office upstairs and I repeated the question. The person who answered the phone told me: "There is a man here who thinks about nothing else but the chocolate directive". I knew I was onto a winner so I made an appointment to see him. I drove out to Cadburys in Coolock and fulfilled another lifetime dream. I spent the day in a chocolate factory. I watched the Milky Way bars go past on conveyor belts. I realised that Ireland is the Flake capital of the world. I saw cement mixers full of Smarties of all colours, which reminds me that there is another directive on colourings. I had the best time and came home loaded with free samples, something everybody hopes to get when they visit a chocolate factory.

Ms Banotti, MEP:

I returned to Brussels and discovered that the British and the Irish make their chocolate in the same way so I knew I had some allies there. However, the main rapporteur on that report was a man called Mr. Nordmann, who lived next door to the biggest, best and most expensive chocolate factory in France. While I was getting my briefing from Cadburys he was getting his briefing from this factory, which wanted nothing more than to ensure that only chocolate made in the same way as it was made in this factory could be labelled as chocolate.

Ms Banotti, MEP:

I arrived at the committee weighed down with free bars of Cadburys Fruit and Nut for every member. They thought it was my birthday and that I was celebrating it by giving them a free bar of chocolate. I met Mr. Nordmann in the corridor and I had a particularly big bar of Fruit and Nut for him. However, he stood with his hand held up in refusal and said: "A piece of that chocolate will never cross my lips until this debate is over". I thought it was hilarious. However, the next group to arrive was the development committee. Chocolate is a major issue for some of the west African countries because cocoa butter is one of their main exports. We therefore found ourselves dealing with an industrial issue, a consumer issue and a development issue.

I have always been grateful for the chocolate directive which, incidentally, still has not been solved. We dealt with it through a labelling device which would show how much cocoa butter was in a bar of chocolate and left it at that. The issue ran for a long time but it was a great political learning process for me. What confuses people is how an issue in which one has an interest or about which one has a concern can be affected by other issues, be they economic, consumer protection, environmental or so forth. One needs to keep a careful eye on such things and that is what we tried to do.

No matter how important or complex the legislation, the public understanding of it is generally brought down to the most simple issue or to the one thing that will get members of the public outside the gates of parliament abusing politicians. It generally has nothing to do with the legislation as a whole. The children in the schools love my chocolate story and I talk to them about it because they are extremely interested in chocolate. However, I also hope it is a context to explain these things. I am sure Senators find, in the course of their work, that where a political issue is controversial, most people will only confront them about one part or aspect of it.

The issue of stem cell research is a topical example. It is a controversial and anguishing issue. I heard Deputy Gay Mitchell speaking on the radio about it this morning. He made the justifiable point that it was not discussed in the Committee on European Affairs. He is right to be annoyed about it. I suppose I can be braver in what I say because I am not running again for election but when dealing with issues such as this, I have suffered as a politician over the years from the type of black and white debates they always generate.

Photo of Ann OrmondeAnn Ormonde (Fianna Fail)
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That is the problem.

Ms Banotti, MEP:

They tear us apart and never result in any light being shed.

Photo of Ann OrmondeAnn Ormonde (Fianna Fail)
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The X case again.

Ms Banotti, MEP:

Exactly. My mother had Parkinson's disease. She lived with it for about nine years before she died. I am a nurse and have seen how that disease develops. Naturally, I do not want to kill babies or anything else. This is a highly complex, technical issue. I can understand the moral issues involved and I am touched by them.

One of the most moving moments I experienced in the past year in the European Parliament involved a colleague I have known for many years, Nicholas Bethell, a distinguished Member of the European Parliament. A similar type of debate on this issue was taking place within my political group and everybody was up on their high horse, taking the high moral ground on this and that. Nicholas Bethell put his hand up. He is dying of Parkinson's disease and left the parliament about a month ago. He spoke quietly and calmly about having advanced Parkinson's disease. He said his father had died from Parkinson's disease and that his eight year old son was just as likely to get this dreadful disease, given the genetic issues involved. He said he was leaving the Parliament, but he wanted people to think hard when trying to simplify such issues. Having listened to some of the debate, I have decided to vote in favour of it in memory of my mother and of him. I have great respect for people with other points of view. However, I will vote for it because I believe some good can come from it.

Photo of Ann OrmondeAnn Ormonde (Fianna Fail)
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Well done.

Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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As it is 3.30 p.m., I cannot allow any more questions.

Photo of Geraldine FeeneyGeraldine Feeney (Fianna Fail)
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I wanted to ask Ms Banotti one question.

Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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Unfortunately, the time has elapsed.

Photo of Mary O'RourkeMary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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We are honoured that Ms Banotti came to the Seanad today. It did not require a constitutional amendment; the members of the Committee on Procedure and Privileges came together and agreed to use the Standing Order under our able Cathaoirleach. Ms Banotti is open and honest, as she always has been. She is the first person to come here in this series of debates because she was the first to reply. Everyone else was tardy. It is a woman thing because she replied immediately.

Photo of Paul CoghlanPaul Coghlan (Fine Gael)
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Sisters together.

Ms Banotti, MEP:

Sisters do it better.

Photo of Mary O'RourkeMary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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I thank the Cathaoirleach for being with us on this occasion. We are having a series of such debates. I am also delighted to see Mrs. Nora Owen in the Gallery.

Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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As Cathaoirleach of the Seanad and on behalf of all Senators, I thank Ms Banotti for attending today. Her address and replies were interesting and educational. They were a fitting tribute to her success and hard work as a Member of the European Parliament.

Ms Banotti, MEP:

I thank the Cathaoirleach.

Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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When is it proposed to sit again?

Photo of Mary O'RourkeMary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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We must adjourn sine die as we have not yet received notification from a Minister's office about legislation.