Seanad debates
Thursday, 23 October 2003
Order of Business.
10:30 am
Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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The Order of Business today is No. 1, Sea Pollution (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill 2003 – Order for Second Stage and Second Stage, to be taken at the conclusion of the Order of Business with the contributions of spokespersons not to exceed 15 minutes, those of all other Senators not to exceed ten minutes and Members may share time. This item is to conclude not later than 1 p.m. with the Minister being called to reply not later than ten minutes before the conclusion of Second Stage.
Brian Hayes (Fine Gael)
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I welcome that the Government chose to accept Senator Quinn's Private Members' Bill last night. It is important we acknowledge that and I do so. It sends an important signal to other Opposition Senators. There appears to be more legislation coming from this side of the House than the other side.
Why is the Government choosing to close down Parliament next week? Why, following 14 weeks in recess from July to October, will this House not sit next week? There are important issues to be debated. We must all wait until the following week because Ministers have decided to take a mid-term break. It is not good enough that this House will go into abeyance next week. The Government is treating this place as a doss house. There is a grievance on this side of the House because of the tactic of not introducing legislation in the House and the Government's decision to take this latest mid-term break. It is not right. It is a dumbing down of Parliament to which I have referred previously.
Timmy Dooley (Fianna Fail)
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The Government has introduced many Bills.
Brian Hayes (Fine Gael)
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Is that a comment I hear from Larry Flynt? I am glad to see him back in the House.
Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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The Senator should not have made that remark about any Member of the House.
Brian Hayes (Fine Gael)
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He has done well in the US.
I seek an explanation for this latest twist. There is no reason for the House to take a break next week. It is ridiculous that the Government is closing Parliament.
Mary Henry (Independent)
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Ireland has strict laws relating to the detention of persons who are accused of crimes but, unfortunately, this is not the case everywhere. The issue of the detention of people in Guantanamo Bay has been raised previously. It is totally in contravention of international law and people are also being held in Iraq in a similar manner. A freeman of the City of Dublin, Aung San Suu Kyi, is also being detained in Burma. Will the Leader ask the Minister for Foreign Affairs to come to the House to discuss what representations he and his Department have made regarding illegal detentions in various countries?
Derek McDowell (Labour)
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I endorse the comments of Senator Brian Hayes. It is not unusual in early July for Opposition Members to condemn the Houses going into recess until October. Sometimes one can reasonably cast doubt on the bona fides of those who make those protestations but no Member in either House believes that taking next week off can be justified. I do not understand the logic behind it as it makes no sense. While the Houses are committed to the week off, it would be a minor reform in the context of the useful discussions that were held in September and such a break should be done away with forthwith.
I was not present for the Order of Business yesterday but I would like to reflect the frustration of others regarding the impasse that has been reached in Northern Ireland. I am one of many who have always viewed the decommissioning process as a confidence building measure rather than a logistical exercise. Sinn Féin and the IRA are well resourced and in position to replace the arms that are decommissioned should they choose to revert to violence. The purpose of decommissioning was always to build trust and it is utterly absurd that a decommissioning act can be carried out but details are not provided so that confidence can be built. I hope both Governments and those responsible for the obligation of confidentiality being placed on General de Chastelain will make the necessary moves over the next few days to break the impasse.
I refer to the provision of a national stadium and national sports infrastructure. It is 18 months since Deputy O'Donoghue became the Minister responsible for this issue. He has been promising on almost a monthly basis that a Government decision is imminent, yet none has been reached. The Government is in the farcical position of having paid national sporting organisations to put their stadium plans on hold while failing to reach a conclusion itself. The House debates many issues with which the public does not connect but this is one issue in which the public has an interest and, if the Minister was invited to the House, it would give us an opportunity to send a signal to Government that it should get its finger out.
Michael Finucane (Fine Gael)
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Criminal activity in Limerick city has been discussed recently and this week has provided further evidence of the effect of the criminal fraternity on the local population. Ten jurors out of a total of 579 were eventually appointed to take a case in the Central Criminal Court in Limerick, despite the assurance of Garda protection for those participating in the case. That is symptomatic of the fear of the criminal fraternity in Limerick. The original objective behind the transfer of the Central Criminal Court from Dublin to Limerick was to save expenditure. However, a reign of fear has gripped Limerick city and the operation of the jury system there must be a serious concern for the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform. Under the system, 90 out of a 100 potential jurors can be objected to by defence counsel. I have done jury service and a person can be objected to as a potential juror because somebody does not like the look of him or her. The jury system must be examined, particularly in terms of how it operates in Limerick.
Michael Kitt (Fianna Fail)
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I welcome the announcement of the provision of additional aid to the people of Iraq by the Government as it is badly needed. However, I am concerned that a number of countries have decided not to provide aid or assistance because they are worried about the lack of governance in Iraq. I hope this issue will be discussed by the EU and the UN. There is an urgent need for assistance and perhaps we will have an opportunity to debate this issue shortly.
David Norris (Independent)
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Following on from Senator Kitt's comments, I noticed the amounts provided by the Government and they are small in terms of the needs of Iraq but I am glad of that. It is not the duty of this or other European countries whose people massively opposed this illegal war to clean up the mess after the Americans. They waltzed in there with their own intentions, which were principally profit and power, and now they are looking to us to clean up the mess after them. We should be tough in dealing with them.
I compliment my colleague, Senator Henry, on raising the question of Guantanamo Bay and putting it in the context of the detention of Aung San Suu Kyi because the Americans have shattered respect for international law and they are still illegally sequestering people and holding them in impossible conditions at Guantanamo Bay. Until these issues are resolved, we should not help them to clean up the mess they have created as the result of a tissue of lies.
Could we have a debate on the Irish film industry and, in particular, the tax provisions which are in some difficulty? The president of the Motion Picture Association of America visited Ireland during the week. The film industry in America is powerful and he made it perfectly clear that if the Government persists with its intention of removing these incentives, Ireland will not be at the fair. We have a tremendous pool of talent in terms of technical people and actors and we have wonderful locations but we will put ourselves totally out of step with every other country in Europe if we do not have tax breaks. It is in our interest to maintain them. It may be unpopular because people want new hospitals and so on but jobs and income must be generated. I will support the Government if its wishes to maintain this tax incentive because it is important.
James Bannon (Fine Gael)
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Will the Leader invite the Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment to the House to debate price increases? There has been a significant rip-off of consumers over the past 12 months. The Government is responsible for 60% of the increase in prices. Stealth taxes are being introduced on a daily basis, which I could list until lunch time, but there have been increases in the cost of gas, electricity, motor tax, the television licence and so on. The average householder must pay an additional €650 per annum. It is important that this issue should be debated and not allowed to go unnoticed.
Labhrás Ó Murchú (Fianna Fail)
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I, like other Members, seek a debate on Iraq. The fact it is no longer in the headlines does not mean that people, particularly those with a regard for human rights, should not be vigilant. The detention of the Guantanamo Bay captives is a serious matter that will come back to haunt us when international justice is being debated in the future. Many issues are at stake. The US Administration may not accept that the captives are legal combatants, but it should consider the matter of ordinary human civil rights. The fact that people are being held to ransom at Guantanamo Bay is a worrying development. It is important for Ireland, which has always had a particular position in the international community when it comes to fair play and human rights, to be vigilant and to continue to debate the issue.
Paul Coghlan (Fine Gael)
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I was surprised to hear my colleague, Senator Brian Hayes, mention that the House may not sit next week. I have not heard any reference to such an adjournment from the Leader, who is normally rather informative. I am surprised that I have not received a letter or any other form of communication to explain the matter. I look forward to hearing clarification of this subject from the Leader.
I wish to raise the proposal to create an office of environmental enforcement. There has been a slight growth in the number of offices enforcing various matters. Will the new office be established by means of new legislation or by way of a ministerial order under existing legislation?
Fergal Browne (Fine Gael)
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Will the Leader invite the Minister for Finance or the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government to the House in the next few weeks to discuss the Government's plans to resolve the difficulties caused by last year's decision to scrap the first-time buyer's grant? Senators on this side of the House agree that it was a very bad decision. A debate on the matter could also involve a discussion of the abolition of the section 23 tax breaks. I believe that this decision has added about €100,000 to the value of every relevant property, with the consequence that houses are now even less affordable for young people. We need to debate in this House the affordability of housing for young people and the correction of the anomaly that exists.
I also ask the Leader to arrange for the Minister for Transport to come to the House to discuss road building projects throughout the country. A recent newspaper report suggested that the Minister is trying to fast-track the construction of motorways from Dublin to Cork and Galway. It is clear that other projects, such as the upgrading of the N9 and the Ennis and other bypasses, will be downgraded as a result. It is time for a debate on this matter in the House. We realise that money is not as plentiful as it was some time ago, but we need to decide whether to proceed with major projects at the expense of smaller-scale projects. Should priority be given to major projects? It would be helpful to have a debate on this matter in the run-up to the Estimates.
Noel Coonan (Fine Gael)
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I ask the Leader to advise the Government of a certain matter. Senators are aware that the last commercial Concorde flight will take place today. Given that it is an ill wind that does not help somebody, perhaps the Government might benefit from a great bargain. It might solve its transport problems by acquiring a Concorde jet. A spectacular deal might be available.
Geraldine FeeneyNoel Coonan (Fine Gael)
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The UK and French Governments cannot afford to run Concorde, but that would not be a problem for the Government.
Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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Does the Senator have a question for the Leader?
Noel Coonan (Fine Gael)
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Will the Government consider the purchase of a Concorde jet to solve its air transport problems? The Cathaoirleach should consider the advantages of such a purchase.
Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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I do not think the Senator needs to elaborate on the matter.
Noel Coonan (Fine Gael)
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Ministers could arrive back in the country two hours before they leave.
Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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That is not relevant to the Order of Business.
Mary WhiteMary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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Senator Brian Hayes noted the successful passage through Second Stage of the Irish Nationality and Citizenship and Ministers and Secretaries (Amendment) Bill 2003, which was brought forward by Senator Quinn. All Members of the House are pleased that the Bill was approved last night. I encourage all Senators, from all parties, to propose Private Members' Bills. I am preparing such a Bill at present.
If there is a quality I cannot stand in a person, it is hypocrisy. We have been treated to a double dose of hypocrisy in the House this morning. Several Senators on the other side of the House asked me if the Houses will take a mid-term break of one week. I will spare their blushes by not naming them, but I reiterate that they occupy the Opposition benches.
Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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The Senator should not be too smart. Several Members from the other side of the House asked me if the Seanad will adjourn for a week in the same manner as the Dáil.
Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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I told them that it looked like the House would take such a break. The idea that Senators have been struck by a bolt of lightning and now want to stay—
Brian Hayes (Fine Gael)
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The Leader could have informed the House of her intentions.
Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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I can arrange for the House to sit next week. It should be noted that Fine Gael has a paltry seven Members present in the House. Many of them rarely contribute when Bills are before the House.
Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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Fine Gael very rarely contributes.
Brian Hayes (Fine Gael)
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The Opposition agrees with the idea of arranging to sit next week.
Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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The Senator should look at the rows of people on my side.
John Minihan (Progressive Democrats)
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Where are the Fine Gael Members?
Brian Hayes (Fine Gael)
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I would like to accept the Leader's recommendation.
Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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The House can decide whether to meet next week when the House is adjourning this evening.
Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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Yes, exactly. I thank the Chair. I have said that hypocrisy sickens me. We have had it in massive doses today.
Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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Some of those who asked if the House planned to adjourn for a week mentioned that they hoped we would not meet.
Brian Hayes (Fine Gael)
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They are all paired with the Government Members.
Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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I ask the Leader to respond to the other matters that were raised on the Order of Business.
Terry LeydenMary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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Senator Leyden said that I should name and shame – what happened to that campaign?
Michael Finucane (Fine Gael)
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Roscommon County Hospital is taking over.
Noel Coonan (Fine Gael)
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The Leader named and shamed the Minister for Transport.
Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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Senator Henry rightly mentioned the detention of prisoners at Guantanamo Bay and she also spoke about other illegal detentions. I have requested a debate on the matter and it is being examined.
Senator McDowell was not too hasty when he spoke about the adjournment of the House for a week. I will not say any more on that matter because one is not allowed to draw attention to the absence of other Members. He also mentioned the need for confidence-building measures in Northern Ireland. He argued that the quantity of arms being decommissioned should be made known to the various leaders in the North but, given that I said yesterday that I thought the House was treating the matter in a serious and grown-up fashion, perhaps we should not make such demands. He also called on the Minister for Arts, Sport and Tourism to come to the House. Such a request has been made in respect of a fine tourism report that has been published and that we want to debate.
Senator Finucane mentioned the difficulties that were encountered in acquiring the required number of jurors for a court case in Limerick. I am sure all Senators have noted this problem. This reluctance to participate in jury duty is a telling sign of people's fear of those involved in criminal activity. We cannot allow it to continue. The Senator asked for the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform's attendance in this House.
Senator Kitt said he is glad that additional aid is being sent to Iraq. Senator Norris asked why we should send aid to Iraq, given that the US has made a "mess" there. I am aware that a donors' conference is taking place today in Madrid. The United States wants other countries to contribute to clearing up the area. The Senator also acknowledged the importance of the Irish film industry.
Senator Bannon wants the Tánaiste and Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment to come to the House to talk about price increases, or "stealth taxes", as he referred to them. I will request the Tánaiste's presence.
Senator Ó Murchú called for a debate on Iraq. I hope that such a debate will take place the week after next. I have asked that the Minister of State, Deputy Kitt, come to the House to discuss the matter.
Senator Coghlan mentioned the proposed office of environmental enforcement. He wants to know if the new office will be established by means of legislation or by ministerial arrangement. I do not know the answer to that question, but I will find out for the Senator.
We have dealt with four Bills in the House since this session began. Senator Brian Hayes said there was no legislation coming before the House, which is a total exaggeration. All the Bills we passed are piled up on the Dáil Order Paper and the Dáil cannot get through its legislation. It is not for us to criticise it or decide when it considers Bills we have dealt with, but because there are so many Bills on the Dáil Order Paper, we cannot put through many more because they will join the queue. We will discuss two new Bills the week after next. I reiterate that the hypocrisy smells deeply—
Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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The members of the Senator's party do not want to meet so he should stop that crap.
Order of Business agreed to.