Seanad debates

Tuesday, 1 July 2003

Taxi Regulation Bill 2003: Committee Stage (Resumed).

 

SECTION 38.

2:30 pm

Fergal Browne (Fine Gael)
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I move amendment No. 10:

In page 26, between lines 8 and 9, to insert the following new subsection:

"(5) The Courts Service shall furnish all relevant information to the Commission as from time to time may be required to maintain an accurate register.".

This reiterates my earlier point about the commission having the full facts and figures when granting licences. The Courts Service would be in a position to furnish the commission with that information so that an accurate register could be maintained.

Photo of Jim McDaidJim McDaid (Donegal North East, Fianna Fail)
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The offences that would generate a disqualification under the Bill are, by their very nature, limited to those areas of behaviour that would place a question mark over the fitness of a convicted person to be engaged in the delivery of individual transport services. All such convictions are recorded by the Garda. This information can be passed on to the commission under agreed arrangements, where necessary, with the Garda. In addition, appropriate arrangements can be put in place to ensure that applicants for licences under the Bill will be required to provide confirmation that they have not been convicted of one of the offences in question.

The Senator is seeking the details of the convictions but the Bill already contains a provision for applicants to give details. He says the courts will be in a better position to do that but the courts will not have records of all people who will apply for a licence. Accountants and others hold licences and there would not be any record of them within the courts.

The commission and the Garda can come up with arrangements to deal with any inquiries that are made. Any records that the courts have would be at the disposal of the Garda. Whether the courts could release information directly to the commission is another matter but, between the commission's powers and those of the Garda, via the relationship with the courts, the information will be available.

Amendment put and declared lost.

Section 38 agreed to.

Sections 39 to 43, inclusive, agreed to.

NEW SECTION.

Fergal Browne (Fine Gael)
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I move amendment No. 11:

In page 30, before section 44 to insert the following new section:

44.–(1) A person shall not drive or use or be carried in a small public service vehicle the subject of a small public service vehicle licence exclusively or primarily for the personal or private carriage of an individual.

(2) A person shall not procure or seek to procure a small public service vehicle licence to be used exclusively or primarily for the personal or private carriage of an individual.

(3) A person who contravenes this section is guilty of an offence.".

The need for this amendment was demonstrated when Michael O'Leary of Ryanair was revealed to have bought a hackney licence for his own private use so he could use bus lanes. This amendment would be a practical step towards ensuring that did not happen again. We do not want people earning a good salary to be in a position to buy a hackney licence and use it to reduce their journey times.

It is an important amendment and I ask the House to accept it. Otherwise, our bus corridors will be clogged with huge Mercedes and Jaguars posing as hackneys or public service vehicles. They are private vehicles. We need to tighten this area. The problem was brought home to all of us lately by Michael O'Leary's antics.

Photo of Jim McDaidJim McDaid (Donegal North East, Fianna Fail)
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I cannot accept the amendment or the point made by the Deputy. If we insert the amendment in legislation, we would all be before the courts because I am sure a constitutional issue would arise. When the legislation is passed and we have set up the commission, the commission will be responsible for setting its own parameters and the pros and cons of the legislation. It is not for us to determine who should own the licence or for what reason. That is the reason I cannot accept the amendment. The commission will be responsible for setting its own parameters. I will not do so. This proposal should not be included as part of the legislation.

In addressing the proposal there is a need to look in general terms at the provisions already contained in the Bill. In particular, I refer to the powers of the commission in relation to the determination of requirements and conditions to be applied to the licensing and operation of all small public service vehicles and their drivers. The inclusion of the provision proposed in the amendment would put in place a restriction on the freedom of the commission to apply and enforce the broad powers invested in that office. These powers include the determination of the conditions subject to which a licence may be granted and the conditions in respect of which a small public service vehicle may be operated. Different conditions can be applied to the operation of different types of small public service vehicles and in respect of different areas. If we were to include the provision in legislation, the case on everyone's lips could inhibit the work of the commission in dealing with this problem. I would prefer not to include it in the legislation but to leave the matter to the commission.

Amendment put.

Tellers: Tá, Senators U. Burke and B. Hayes; Níl, Senators Minihan and Moylan.

Amendment declared lost.

Sections 44 to 52, inclusive, agreed to.

SECTION 53.

Question proposed: "That section 53 stand part of the Bill."

Fergal Browne (Fine Gael)
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On the establishment of the advisory council, which will comprise 15 people, I hope the Minister will ensure that there will be no cronyism, that people will be selected on the basis of what they have to offer. We do not want a rehash of the prison boards experience. It is to be hoped that people on the advisory board will have good practical experience of the industry.

Photo of Jim McDaidJim McDaid (Donegal North East, Fianna Fail)
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I have said before in regard to issues such as this that it is normally people who are experienced and who possess integrity and competence who are appointed by the Government to the various boards. It is always a point of contention with the Opposition that competent people may be appointed to boards who might be a member of one party or other. My party obtained up to 40% of the poll at the last general election. I would suggest to him that among that 40% are many people with experience, competence and integrity, but I will take the Senator's point on board.

Question put and agreed to.

Section 54 agreed to.

SECTION 55.

Fergal Browne (Fine Gael)
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I move amendment No. 12:

In page 38, subsection (2)(b) , line 16, after "Minister" to insert "and Houses of the Oireachtas".

Photo of Jim McDaidJim McDaid (Donegal North East, Fianna Fail)
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When an advisory board is appointed to a commission, one does not ask that the advice given to a board should be made public. The advice is given on the basis that this is an advisory council. I have no intention of making such advice public. However, Senators should note that the Government amendment to the original section 29 of the Bill specifically provides that in its annual report the commission must set down what decisions it made following receipt of advice from the council. It will be available in the annual report, but it would be wrong of us to try to muzzle an advisory council. Let them give their advice freely in the knowledge that it does not have to be reported. Otherwise, the best advice may not be available.

Fergal Browne (Fine Gael)
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I hear what the Minister has to say. If the Minister had been here during the Order of Business, he would have heard many Senators raise with the Leader of the House the accountability of the BCI. Much unhappiness was expressed at the granting and withdrawal of radio licences. People want to see accountability, a clear-cut explanation as to why radio licences were granted or not granted. The same applies in this context. We want to make things more transparent and in some respects save the commission unnecessary work afterwards. The proposal would remove any cloud of suspicion or veil of secrecy by providing for a more transparent, clear-cut system which people would understand.

Photo of Mary O'RourkeMary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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While the Leas-Chathaoirleach was in the Chair, the House agreed to extend the debate until 4.40 p.m. We were not aware there would be a division at that stage, although Senators are clearly entitled to call a vote. If it is in order, we will, with the agreement of the House, extend the debate by a further ten minutes until 4.50 p.m.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach:

We will allow the House to decide. Is the proposal agreed to? Agreed.

Photo of Brian HayesBrian Hayes (Fine Gael)
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Will the Minister of State outline the rationale for his decision not to accept Senator Browne's amendment, which is a straightforward proposal to make public the advice given by the advisory board? The Minister of State's remarks appear contrary to the spirit, if not the letter, of the Freedom of Information Act and the thrust of the SMI process, an effort by the Government to expose to the public as much information as possible, with which he and some of his Government colleagues will be familiar. By laying this information before both Houses of the Oireachtas, we would simply allow it to be made public. The Minister of State's response and the rationale behind it are not well thought out. I ask him to reconsider his position on the matter, as the proposal offers the only opportunity for the House to get maximum benefit from the proposed regulatory authority, which has universal support among Senators. The information in question is a basic requirement and would be useful.

Photo of Jim McDaidJim McDaid (Donegal North East, Fianna Fail)
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I do not accept the Senator's comments. As I argued previously, the Commission for Taxi Regulation may be brought before any committee of the Houses, including the Joint Committee on Transport. In addition, the Minister will answer parliamentary questions on policy. The board will act in an advisory capacity. Those appointed to an advisory council have a right to offer advice in private. It is then up to the commission to accept or refuse it. The Senator may even be seeking information on the advice offered by named individuals on the advisory board, which is not the way forward.

This case differs from other areas, some of which the Senator mentioned, in that the Commission for Taxi Regulation will be compelled to come before a committee of the Houses. The Senator's concerns are, therefore, addressed. As I stated, nothing is written in stone. It is better to try the approach we have proposed and if for any reason the legislation requires change in the future, this can be done. The advice given by members of an advisory council should not be made public as it could become the subject of misinformation, particularly given the manner in which other issues are reported in certain sections of the media.

Photo of Brian HayesBrian Hayes (Fine Gael)
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Is it the case that when established under statute, the commission will be part and parcel of the freedom of information regime?

Photo of Jim McDaidJim McDaid (Donegal North East, Fianna Fail)
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Yes.

Photo of Brian HayesBrian Hayes (Fine Gael)
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If, as the Minister of State has conceded, this is the case, any document being considered by the commission at any time would be accessible under freedom of information requests as defined in the Act. Senator Browne's proposal will, therefore, be acceded to when a freedom of information request seeking information on the advice given to the commission by the advisory committee is made.

Photo of Jim McDaidJim McDaid (Donegal North East, Fianna Fail)
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That will depend on circumstances and the nature of the freedom of information request. Even under the Freedom of Information Act, certain areas are protected. I cannot accept the amendment for the reasons I have outlined, namely, that the board will be an advisory council to an independent commission.

Photo of Brian HayesBrian Hayes (Fine Gael)
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The Minister of State's replies will be useful for the record. On the one hand, he is not conceding to Senator Browne's amendment while, on the other, he has conceded that much of the information the Senator and others may request from the advisory board can be obtained under the Freedom of Information Act. This renders Parliament irrelevant.

Photo of Jim McDaidJim McDaid (Donegal North East, Fianna Fail)
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That is not the case. If one examines the Freedom of Information Act, particularly the changes introduced recently—

Photo of Brian HayesBrian Hayes (Fine Gael)
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We are well aware of them.

Photo of Jim McDaidJim McDaid (Donegal North East, Fianna Fail)
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it does not give credence to the Senator's argument. I maintain that the body in question is an advisory council. It is sometimes difficult to attract people to positions on such bodies. If information on the advice they have given to the best of their ability was to be exposed, we would put—

Photo of Brian HayesBrian Hayes (Fine Gael)
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Exposed to what? It is not a nuclear bomb.

Photo of Jim McDaidJim McDaid (Donegal North East, Fianna Fail)
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Exactly, which is the reason I am allowing members of the board to offer advice to the commission freely. It will then be a matter for the commission to decide whether it will accept it.

Amendment put and declared lost.

Section 55 agreed to.

Sections 56 and 57 agreed to.

Title agreed to.

Bill reported without amendment.

Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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When is it proposed to take Report Stage?

Photo of Cyprian BradyCyprian Brady (Fianna Fail)
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Now.