Mr. B. Hayes: I oppose the Order of Business on several grounds. It is an absolute joke that we are to be asked to discuss the changes that the Dáil has made to the Freedom of Information (Amendment) Bill 2003 in one hour's debate. I understand that there are 27 amendments to the Bill. That is not the way to do business. It is not the Leader's fault but that of Standing Orders. My party's spokesperson and those of other parties are to be allowed to make only one response to the 27 amendments. On that basis, we oppose both the Order of Business and the way in which the Government is moving the motion for Earlier Signature. In effect, the a guillotine is being applied to the President who is being told to "Sign this, or else". I ask the Leader, even at this late stage, to reconsider the Order of Business.

Yesterday we all witnessed the scenes in the Iraqi capital Baghdad following the fall of Saddam Hussein's regime. Whatever the views of Members of both Houses on the war, and its legitimacy or otherwise, I hope we can all agree that the future of Iraq belongs to its people. We all wish that there will soon be no Americans in Iraq and that Saddam Hussein, the Ba'ath Socialist Party and all the trappings of the regime will be gone. The Iraqis are a proud people with considerable talents in a country rich in resources. We hope that such a future can be achieved.

The future to which I refer would be best realised where the United Nations is centrally involved in planning with the Iraqi people. The Irish Defence Forces have particular knowledge and expertise in terms of building the capacity for a peaceful and secure future for people in countries such as Iraq. Ireland should be part of any successful United Nations force deployed in Iraq the coming months. We have specific knowledge in peacekeeping and peace-making. The Iraqi people and the people of the region would welcome help from the Government and the Defence Forces. It is something we should debate.

The Leader will be aware that some of her colleagues want to gag her and her parliamentary colleagues. We will not have the Leader of the House driven underground. She is in no way an endangered species. If that happens, she will find great defence on this side of the House.

Mr. O'Toole: Senator Brian Hayes took the words out of my mouth. I have been extremely upset about this since this morning and have already had words with the chairman of the Fianna Fáil parliamentary party, good Louth man that he is. I am appalled to think that whatever drove the Government to this stopping, blocking and stemming of information which led to the extraordinary amendments to the Freedom of Information Act has extended to the parliamentary party where the new rule is that people will no longer be in control of what they say. We say to our colleagues in Fianna Fáil that this is appalling. We will probably have to listen to the Progressive Democrats for the view of the Government from now on because those in Fianna Fáil will be put down and put to sleep if they speak out of turn. If we can be of any assistance in this matter—

Mr. Leyden: Like the ICTU.

Mr. O'Toole: We saw how Fianna Fáil Members were gagged during the passage of the Freedom of Information (Amendment) Bill and, now that the Government got away with that, it is trying to say the same to parliamentary party members about internal party affairs. Before long, it will be able to send statues to the Chamber.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach: Is the Senator looking for a debate on the matter?

Mr. O'Toole: A constitutional issue is involved, especially for this House because constitutionally it recognises groups rather than parties. It is unacceptable for an external force such as the Fianna Fáil parliamentary party to try to gag the duly and democratically elected members who happen to take the Fianna Fáil Whip in the House. We should take some stand against this. It is unacceptable and unfair that Fianna Fáil Senators should be told to shut up by their party leadership. They deserve better. We are on their side in this one. It was bound to happen because it was heading in this direction for a while. Fianna Fáil Senators should resist and not put up with it.

Mr. Leyden: How does the Senator keep the ICTU down? He seems to control it very well. It has one voice, one leader. It is wonderful.

Mr. B. Hayes: The Senator should keep an eye on the bigger picture.

Mr. O'Toole: There is great concern, especially in the Fianna Fáil Party, about the influence of Senator bin Leyden in the operation of the party, that he can be an undermining influence.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach: Senator O'Toole must refer to another Senator by his or her proper title.

Mr. Leyden: That was probably unparliamentary. Senator O'Toole will have to correct the record.

Mr. O'Toole: I have very mixed views about what happened in Baghdad last night. While we have always said we would celebrate the end of Saddam Hussein's regime, all I could think of was Gulliver's Travels. It reminded me of the scene from Lilliput where the huge giant was toppled over by the little people. It looked to me like some dumb show put on for the American viewing public.

We need to examine seriously how this will move forward. Now that that aspect is over, can we examine others? I am most concerned about where we stand on the United Nations. I have no doubt that the United States is opposed to UN involvement. This war took place apparently to disarm the regime in Iraq and has changed its emphasis towards putting a new regime in place and installing democracy. While none of us could oppose this, it was not the reason given to the United Nations and there is now a view in the United States that the United Nations should not be involved. This is a serious issue. I appeal to Members on both sides of the House to keep a close eye on what happens, especially to the Kurds who have always been the meat in the sandwich between the Turkish and Iraqi regimes and when it suited western governments.

One issue we need to examine closely and on which there was a huge discussion recently is the lack of fair and free access to health services. There is an appalling headline in today's newspapers to the effect that men from County Kerry are more likely to die from a heart attack than any other group. Will someone show concern for us and ensure there is equality of access because, again, we are discriminated against, this time in coronary disease?

Mr. Ryan: No one with a spark of humanity would wish other than that the war in Iraq would end quickly and in a way that protects the lives of Iraqis. While overwhelming military force can win a war, I am not convinced that the stability that is the most precious thing Iraqis seek will emanate from it. There is a huge issue concerning who is responsible for the consequences of the disorder, anarchy and considerable chaos that appears to be breaking out. The state of the hospitals in Baghdad alone, as described in this morning's media raises the question of proportionality.

There is an irony in the advocacy and enthusiasm for democracy in Iraq, given that the war was essentially launched from Kuwait which has no intention ever of becoming of a democracy. I find it ironic that a war to install democracy in Iraq was launched from a country that will never be a democracy and does not recognise women's rights to participate in politics. This is not to speak of that other great ally, Saudi Arabia, which has no great enthusiasm for democracy either.

I must express scepticism about the prospects for a seriously free democracy in Iraq. Anyone who watched the most recent presidential election in Bolivia will have seen the unqualified intervention of the US ambassador in that country, advising the people of the serious consequences of voting for the wrong candidate. That is not the way to install the type of democracy in which I believe.

I would like to have a debate at some stage, presumably after Easter, on the question of law enforcement in this country. We heard from Senator O'Meara last night about the lack of enforcement of environmental law in County Tipperary. It is now beginning to be enforced as a result of my colleague's activities. We know that a State body, Aer Rianta, has been pumping raw sewage into the Shannon Estuary for the past few years. Until a huge fuss was made, no one was prepared to enforce the law.

As another example, I drive regularly from Cork to Dublin and when the new speeding regime was introduced, something I support fully, I assumed I would be slowed down by all the trucks that would not be able to drive above 50mph miles an hour, which is their speed limit. However, I have no problem because they all drive at 60mph. No one enforces the law against huge juggernauts travelling at between 60 and 65mph on roads that are probably not suitable for such vehicles and most assuredly are not for them travelling at 65mph. It is an issue in this country that we are very good at putting laws on the Statute Book and very poor at enforcement. I would like us to discuss this issue about why we are so poor at enforcing laws.

On an issue related to enforcement, whatever attempts Fianna Fáil may make to gag its members, I hope it will not enforce those very well either. I would hate to have our Leader silenced.

Ms O'Rourke: Why do Senators always refer to me?

Mr. Bannon: We are concerned about the Leader.

Mr. Ryan: She is the one with whom we identify most.

Mr. B. Hayes: The Senator should speak for himself.

Mr. Ryan: The Leader can deal later with Senator Brian Hayes.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach: Senator Ryan should conclude.

Mr. Ryan: The culture is extraordinary because the Taoiseach has already required all Cabinet members to undertake that they will not keep diaries or publish memoirs. We now have the filleting of the Freedom of Information Act and the silencing of Fianna Fáil. Is there much left for the Government to do to suppress information?

Mr. Minihan: Yesterday we were referred to as sheep. Perhaps, therefore, the Opposition is talking about the silencing of the lambs.

We have raised the issue of Iraq on many occasions on the Order of Business in recent weeks. It is important that we continue debating it as new developments unfold. There is no doubt that the victims are the people of Iraq but international peace and stability, the United Nations and the European Union have also suffered. Ireland will have a leading role to play in this respect given that we will take over the EU Presidency in January next. We should now start the process of healing the rifts in both the European Union and the United Nations.

I concur with the comments of Senator Brian Hayes that the future of Iraq has to be for the Iraqi people but the United Nations has a huge role to play. We should be proactive in bringing forward new resolutions to ensure this process begins. There is no doubt that the months ahead will be critical in ensuring peace and stability in the Middle East and the future co-operation of states, particularly in the European Union. The Government will have a huge leadership role in the months ahead. This should begin immediately. We could facilitate it by debating the issue in the House. I ask the Leader to organise such a debate as soon as possible.

Mr. Bannon: Will the Leader invite to the House the Minister for Community, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs, who has responsibility for the social inclusion programme, to explain how he intends to support the most disadvantaged in society? It was announced in the budget that 6% of funding would be cut from the programme but it now transpires that 40% has been cut. Is the Minister aware that contracts are being terminated and services withdrawn because those administering the programme had to review their plans because of a recent letter sent to each Leader board? Senator Leyden and I have letters concerning counties Longford and Roscommon.

Mr. Leyden: Indeed I have.

Mr. Bannon: I support my colleagues in respect of the debate on the appointment of the Information Commissioner. This needs to be examined. We need to be more open about the manner in which we make appointments to such vital public offices in the future.

With regard to the muzzling of Fianna Fáil Party members, I fully support my party colleagues in supporting the Leader on this major issue.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach: That does not arise on the Order of Business.

Mr. Bannon: In The Irish Times today I read that there is a move to rattle the position of the Tánaiste as leader of her party. The picture in the newspaper speaks 100,000 words.

Mr. Leyden: This is a very stimulating debate.

Mr. O'Toole: This might be the Senator's last chance to talk without being muzzled.

Mr. Leyden: Let us consider the case of Amina Lawal who was sentenced to be stoned by the courts in Nigeria for having a child out of wedlock. She has been successful in getting a lawyer to represent her and proceed with the appeal. The imposition of such a sentence breaks all international codes and laws. Perhaps the conflict in Iraq is attracting all the attention of the media around the world but the plight of Amina Lawal is very important. Ireland has had very close links with Nigeria, perhaps too close in the recent past, and should withdraw all support for that country if it proceeds with the stoning and murder of this young lady. The stoning, if proceeded with, will break the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights and the Convention against Torture. The young lady in question now has a child and because she is breast-feeding—

An Leas-Chathaoirleach: Has the Senator a question for the Leader?

Mr. Leyden: The House has already expressed its condemnation to the Nigerian Government and I wish to renew this condemnation in the House and make it clear that we will take action if the Nigerian Government proceeds with the sentence against Amina Lawal. She is mothering her young child but the grossly unfair sentence still stands. As a country with very close links with Africa, Nigeria in particular, we have a moral responsibility to make sure the sentence is not carried out. I ask the Leader to use her good offices to convey this view, expressed unanimously by the House, to the Nigerian Government and the ambassador.

Mr. Coonan: In the calm of post-war Iraq and in view of the comments made by the Minister for Defence that there is no such thing as complete military neutrality, will the Leader organise a debate on the Defence Forces given that the Minister has proposed the abolition of many of the FCA units, sold many military barracks and failed to invest funds in equipment for our Army personnel such as helicopters? I would like the Minister to be invited to the House, not just because he is a neighbour of mine but because these issues have not been debated. It is opportune and timely that we do so.

Mr. Morrissey: Will the Leader arrange a debate, sooner rather than later, on the port tunnel? We read articles on a daily basis about its height restrictions, the number of trucks it can accommodate and the damage that might be done by super-trucks. There are no European height restrictions on tunnels. However, there has been an ongoing debate at official level for the past 12 months and Owen Keegan of Dublin City Council has bandied about figures of €140 million down to €20 million. In December a solemn commitment was made to having a transport study conducted on the figures pertaining to the numbers of trucks that would breach the present height restrictions. Those figures are not emerging as quickly as we would like. We were told a month ago that we would have them within a week, after an initial leak of the interim figures. It is bizarre when one realises that the Luas bridge in Dundrum, in the Minister's constituency, has been increased in height to five metres at an undisclosed cost. Also, the East Wall Road bridge has been increased in height to five metres by Iarnród Éireann, yet the height pertaining to the biggest tunnelling project in the country is lower. There seems to be a big cover-up going underground. Will the Leader invite the Minister to the House before Easter, even for one hour, to discuss this subject?

Mr. Higgins: Like other Members of the House, I welcome the fact that the war in Iraq is drawing to a close, whether one agrees with it. We must now keep an eye on future developments, particularly in respect of the roles of the European Union and the United Nations. There are other Saddams who are equally oppressive and insane. I refer, in particular, to Mr. Mugabe, President of the forgotten people in Zimbabwe. I am not advocating any kind of military intervention or invasion from outside, but South Africa has a particular role and influence in this case which it has not exercised. At some stage we or the Joint Committee on Foreign Affairs should consider inviting the South African Ambassador to Ireland with a view to discussing what influence that country can bring to bear on dealing with Mugabe and trying to do something for the poor people of Zimbabwe, not simply the white settlers. There is a huge incidence of AIDS, hospitals do not have medicines and people are literally starving. They are reduced to eating the bark off trees.

I wish the Taoiseach and the British Prime Minister, Tony Blair, well in their deliberations today.

Mr. Ryan: Hear, hear.

Mr. Higgins: This is a most important day from the point of view of this country's welfare and particularly that of Northern Ireland. We want to see the Assembly and the Executive up and running as quickly as possible to restore power to the people, rather than having devolution where matters are run from London. I wish the Taoiseach and the Prime Minister well and hope matters will be finalised today.

Senators: Hear, hear.

Mr. Kitt: I join Senator Higgins in extending my best wishes to the Taoiseach and the British Prime Minister at today's talks.

I hope the United Nations will take a central role in Iraq, particularly in regard to the distribution of food and humanitarian aid, in respect of which I agree that there should not be any militarisation. This sentiment was expressed to us at a meeting of the Joint Committee on Foreign Affairs last week. I support the involvement of Irish forces in Iraq.

The report on the abuse of the elderly has recently been published and I am pleased that the Minister of State at the Department of Health and Children, Deputy Callely, has already met the Garda Commissioner to discuss the issue. It would be worthwhile to debate the report on the treatment of the elderly. There is a worrying article in one of today's newspapers on the issue.

In regard to the alleged muzzling of Fianna Fáil members, the chairman of the parliamentary party, Deputy Kirk, should be commended for allowing us an opportunity to discuss the matter. We have a number of weeks to make submissions. It shows that Fianna Fáil is not only a good party in government, it is good in opposition also. It is a little like the Kilkenny hurlers, of which it is said that the second best team in Ireland is the Kilkenny substitutes. I look forward to that debate.

Mr. B. Hayes: They speak out of both sides of their mouth at the same time.

Mr. Browne: I regret that we have not had the Minister for Transport in the House this term. Transport is an important issue, one that affects us in our everyday lives. I concur with Senator Morrissey's sentiments in regard to the fiasco of the Dublin Port tunnel which has now gone over budget by €300 million. Four weeks after it was asked to do so, the NRA has still not given the relevant information to the Joint Committee on Transport on the overspend, in spite of repeated reminders. How does the Government plan to honour its promise to ensure no heavy goods vehicles will pass through the city centre, given that some vehicles will be unable to use the tunnel? It would be helpful if the Minister came into the House and made the figures known. We have heard that 1% of vehicles will be unable to use the tunnel but there has also been speculation that the figure may be 5%. It would be useful if we had a debate on the subject to allow the Minister to outlines the facts in regard to this matter.

I also have a question in regard to the penalty points system. There appears to be widespread confusion as to exactly when points will take effect. Some are of the opinion that they date from when the fine is paid, while others believe they date from the day the speeding offence is committed. It has come to my attention that if a fine is overpaid, one can buy extra time. An overpaid fine cannot be processed and will be sent back, thus prolonging the actual payment of the fine. This anomaly could have great significance if the endorsement only takes effect on payment of the fine. The effect of such an aberration might only become apparent in three years' time. It is vital that the Minister comes into the House to clarify these matters.

Mr. J. Walsh: I concur with the sentiments of Senator Higgins in extending good wishes to the Taoiseach and the British Prime Minister, as I am sure does every Member of the House. I hope it will resolve the issues that have divided and affected the operation of the Assembly.

I join those Members calling for a debate on transport. It is not correct to say, as Senator Browne did, that we have not had a debate on transport during the lifetime of this Seanad. The Minister has been here on at least one occasion.

Mr. B. Hayes: He did not say that.

Mr. Browne: I did not say that.

Mr. Ryan: Senator Jim Walsh, without obfuscation.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach: Senator Jim Walsh, without interruption.

Mr. J. Walsh: I agree that we should have a debate which would take in such issues as the port tunnel and the operation of the penalty points system, in regard to which I have some reservations in that if there is a long period before people are notified of the points they are accruing, it could be unfair to the individual.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach: Is the Senator seeking a debate?

Mr. J. Walsh: Yes. I also wish to refute the comment made by Senator Ryan in regard to the operation of articulated trucks. They cannot get into top gear at under 50 mph. There is a need for a debate on transport. Will the Leader include a provision whereby the application of speed limits which in some cases are pitched artificially low would be reviewed? I believe that is the Minister's intention.

Mr. Ryan: They should change the gear.

Mr. J. Walsh: This morning we again heard about negative coverage in the newspapers in regard to the health service. I seek a debate on health matters that would specifically focus on the recently published report which surveyed patients' views on the health service. This revealed generally positive feedback with satisfaction rates of up to 80% or 90%.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach: Is the Senator seeking a debate?

Mr. J. Walsh: I am seeking a debate on the matter. It is essential that there is balance in the perception of the health service for the morale of those involved in it, as much as for the confidence of those who use it.

Mr. Scanlon: It has come to my attention that there are a number of European companies successfully operating out of Ireland, particularly in the food sector. Some of them are not giving an opportunity to Irish companies to even give quotes to supply some of the products being sold by them here. I am aware of a factory in Finglas that employs over 200 people which approached one such company to supply a product manufactured here but despite many attempts to get an opportunity to quote, it never got to do so. That is wrong. It is something that is happening regularly. We should have a debate to discuss the matter. Irish jobs are at stake. It is very unfair if companies come here from Europe or elsewhere, trade successfully and make good profits but prevent Irish workers from participating in their enterprises.

Ms O'Meara: I wish to formally second Senator Brian Hayes's motion. I do not think it was seconded. In regard to the Order of Business—

An Leas-Chathaoirleach: He does not need a seconder. He is opposing the Order of Business.

Ms O'Meara: My apologies. I seek to have a debate on the war in Iraq. I know we will not be able to have it this week but, perhaps, we can have it next week. It is urgent that we do so.

Will the Leader put cancer services as an item for discussion on the agenda? An urgent debate is required. There are many Members who wish to contribute to such a debate and raise important issues.

Ms O'Rourke: I concur with those Members who referred to the Taoiseach's meeting today with Tony Blair. The Good Friday Agreement was signed five years ago on this date, 10 April. This anniversary is highly significant and the House was very much united on the issue. Everybody in this House welcomed the development wholeheartedly.

Senator Brian Hayes is opposing the Order of Business, as he is fully entitled to do, in regard to the closure of the Freedom of Information (Amendment) Bill and the attempt to guillotine the President. Many of us, on all sides of the House, are aware that the President is not for guillotining. She is well able to express herself and I do not think the Senator's allegation is correct.

I agree that Iraq should be for the Iraqi people. I saw the scenes last night on television which were repeated on every station. I found the toppling of the statue and the forced gaiety and jollity nauseating. Nobody is in favour of Saddam Hussein. How could anybody be? However, the scenes we witnessed last night do not bode well for the future.

Senator Brian Hayes also raised the possibility of the Defence Forces going to Iraq. Speaking to my colleague, Senator Minihan, I think it would be very appropriate for us to send a peacekeeping force there from the UN and the EU. It is a very fine idea, and as Senator Hayes said, the Irish have long experience of peacekeeping in troubled areas. I thank the Senator for his expression of solidarity with me. I do not know why Senators are all expressing such sentiments as this matter has nothing to do with me.

Mr. B. Hayes: Not yet, but it could in the future.

Ms O'Rourke: I see. Senator O'Toole is also perturbed about members of my party being gagged. I can tell him that none of us will be gagged. The story is massively—

Mr. Minihan: The Leader should not upset Senator O'Toole as she might give him a heart attack.

Ms O'Rourke: That is true. The story has been massively inflated, but we are delighted that the Senator is prepared to be Sir Galahad and ride to our rescue. Senator O'Toole also expressed his worry about the heart condition of his Kerry neighbours.

I feel strongly that we should have a debate on the post-war role of the EU and the UN. One's views and comments can so often be distorted. We are all genuinely glad that the war is over but the fear now concerns what is to happen next. Coupled with the scenes from Iraq shown on television this morning were scenes from Afghanistan, which is entirely riven by dissent, apart from a very small area in the centre of the capital city, Kabul. A party of occupation, which is what the American and British forces are, is not the right conduit for aid and for setting up a proper administration run by the Iraqi people themselves.

Senator Ryan raised the issue of Iraq and the instability that will now follow. The war, he said, was not about democracy but was supposed to be about weapons of mass destruction. It was never to be a war to bring about a change of regime. That only came about later when it was found that there were no weapons of mass destruction.

The Senator also called for better law enforcement, arguing that we pass laws but then do not have sufficient personnel to enforce them. He talked about the speed of trucks, a point that was answered by Senator Jim Walsh, but trucks are passing drivers which are trying to stick to the speed limit. I have noticed in the past two or three weeks that more drivers are becoming careless again. I do not know whether this is just custom or whatever.

I wish Senator Minihan good luck, as chairman, at his party convention tomorrow. I think he will have a few sticky wickets—

Mr. Minihan: Not at all.

Ms O'Rourke: No doubt he will be able to deal with them. Senator Minihan also asked about a debate on Iraq and the role of the UN and the EU. I fully agree that it would be a very worthwhile debate. I wonder whether we will have time next week, but if not, we will have it immediately when we come back after Easter.

Senator Bannon asked for the Minister for Community, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs, Deputy Ó Cuív, to come to the House to explain how he intends to support the disadvantaged. The Senator also expressed his care for me, for which I thank him.

Senator Leyden talked about the stoning of a young woman, Amina Lawal. The Nigerian embassy was the only agency, group or embassy to whom we wrote from which we never heard back. I was quite amazed. I got confirmation about a week ago that they never replied. That sentence still stands, and we should issue another firm letter to the Nigerians.

Senator Coonan wants the Minister for Defence to come to the House to debate the meaning of neutrality, as now appertains. Senator Morrissey raised the issue of the port tunnel. He is right to do so because we need clarification. It appears that the height of the tunnel will not be raised and that the huge trucks will be banned. This information was conveyed in a vague statement, and we want more clarity on the issue.

Senator Higgins raised the issue of Iraq and also the rule of President Mugabe in Zimbabwe, and he suggested perhaps inviting the South African ambassador to the Committee on Foreign Affairs. The Senator also expressed good wishes to the Taoiseach and the British Prime Minister.

Senator Kitt called for the Minister of State with responsibility for the elderly, Deputy Callely, to come to the House. That would be very useful, and I know the Minister of State is keen to do so.

Senator Browne called for debate on transport and the port tunnel and sought clarification about penalty points and about when one pays, when they are enforced and so on. We do need clarification on this issue because these are the things people are asking us about.

Senator Jim Walsh supports the call for a debate on transport, and I know he has much knowledge on that. He talked about the speed of trucks, but my experience, like Senator Ryan's, is that they are overtaking cars. I do not know what gear they are in but they are overtaking. The Senator asked about the health service survey. We do not ever hear the good news being debated, which is the point the Senator is making, only the bad.

Senator Scanlon talked about Irish companies not being asked to tender by European companies set up here who are sourcing material or components. I did not know that Irish companies were not being asked in some cases. They cannot get preferential treatment, and that is obviously not what the Senator meant. His concern is that Irish companies are not being allowed to issue quotes. We will take that up with the Tánaiste.

Senator O'Meara raised the issue of Iraq and seconded Senator Brian Hayes's call for a change to the Order of Business. She also called for a comprehensive debate on the availability of cancer treatment, the numbers involved and so on. That would be very worthwhile.

Question put: "That the Order of Business be agreed to."

Tá

Níl

Tellers: Tá, Senators Minihan and Moylan; Níl, Senators U. Burke and O'Meara.

Question declared carried.