Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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The Order of Business is No. 1, Broadcasting (Major Events Television Coverage) (Amendment) Bill 2003 – Committee and Remaining Stages, to be taken at the conclusion of the Order of Business until 4 p.m.; No. 2, Freedom of Information (Amendment) Bill 2003 – Committee Stage, to be taken—

David Norris (Independent)
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At Cheltenham.

Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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—from 4 p.m. until 10.30 p.m. There will be a sos from 6 p.m. until 6.30 p.m.

Brian Hayes (Fine Gael)
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I propose an amendment to the Order of Business, that No. 2 be deleted. On Thursday the Government proposes to take Report Stage of the Freedom of Information (Amendment) Bill in the House at the same time that a committee of the Houses is considering the matter. This is an unprecedented move. If the Cathaoirleach had allowed me to finish, he would have heard me say I believe an amendment to Standing Orders is required if such a move is to be considered. That is the reason an emergency meeting of the Committee on Procedure and Privileges should now take place. Senators O'Toole and Ryan made this request on Friday.

Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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I have dealt with that matter.

Brian Hayes (Fine Gael)
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It is time the Government took the House seriously. We will go through a charade this afternoon. Two members of the Government are no longer with us and we would have more success were we to have a live link with the paddocks at Cheltenham. It is most unfair to Members that the Minister and Minister of State responsible for this legislation will not come before the House today. A Minister with no responsibility for the legislation will come here to defend it. It is utterly wrong that this procedure should be upheld.

Joe O'Toole (Independent)
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I second Senator Brian Hayes's proposal. In my 15 or 16 years in the House, it is without precedent that a request from three groups for a special meeting of the Committee on Procedure and Privileges would not be conceded. While I accept the Chair has the authority to do this, I do not think it is correct. The issue was raised out of concern about the way business is conducted in the House. This is a real issue and the House will be brought into disrepute in the business it will deal with this week.

The committee system and structures and the relationship between Members and the legislative process are important. It is unacceptable that a committee of the House is consulting on a Bill without considering either what we have to say or the outcome of consultation. This is appalling and I can find no logic in the Government's position. We are awaiting the outcome of those negotiations. Under the terms of the original Act, the Information Commissioner is entitled to give a view on the operation of the Act and he will do so within the next 12 hours. That we are not to have that available to us when we are dealing with Committee Stage cannot be accepted or justified. It is completely wrong. We are ignoring the Information Commissioner, users and a committee and rushing the Bill through the House without the Minister.

I have no objection to Ministers taking time off – they are hard working and entitled to do so. They can be away and we can defer considering the legislation. There is no need to deal with the Bill this week. Let us not become involved in an argument regarding their whereabouts. If they have to be elsewhere, for whatever reason, that is their business. However, they should be here to bring the legislation through the House. The effect of this is that no amendment will be accepted. The Minister dealing with the legislation will take the brunt of the Opposition's opprobrium and will not be in a position to deal with it.

Colleagues on the Government benches hold views on this legislation that are not dissimilar to mine. I know this because I re-read the debate on the original legislation, which came before the House in 1997. I know the view Members hold, but they have been silenced and told what to do. It is like "The Silence of the Lambs" on the Government side. The fact that they do not have views to offer indicates that something is wrong.

The last time something was rushed through in this way was when we dealt with the rod licence legislation. What we are doing is utterly wrong and we will pay the price for it. It does not reflect well on any of us. It is distasteful that we find ourselves in this position. I firmly believe that Members from the Government parties hold my view and that there are things which could be done.

Martin Mansergh (Fianna Fail)
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Speech.

Joe O'Toole (Independent)
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This, however, is bad for the House. It reflects badly on the Cathaoirleach, the House and its operation.

Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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I have no control over the business of the House. That is a matter for it.

Joe O'Toole (Independent)
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New Senators might not be aware of this but there is nothing written anywhere to prevent long speeches on the Order of Business, except that it takes time from other Members. The record shows that a former Leader of the House spoke for 45 minutes on the Order of Business. It can be done, although I do not intend to do so at this stage.

The image of the House is at risk and the way we conduct our business has been brought into disrepute. This is food for the cynics. I second the amendment.

Kathleen O'Meara (Labour)
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I support the amendment before the House. I do not support the Order of Business which is a farce, nothing more, nothing less. A Bill of such magnitude which deals with the accountability of Government decisions is being rammed through the House with speed and in the absence of the Minister involved. Not only is he absent – he also has shown his contemptuous attitude by publicly declaring that he is leaving the country while the Bill is being dealt with in this House. The House and the legislation are being treated with utter contempt.

I am disappointed, a Chathaoirligh, that you were unable to respond to the request from this side of the House to convene a meeting of the Committee on Procedure and Privileges to discuss the matter. It is reprehensible to commence Committee Stage of the Bill while we are awaiting the results of the discussions at the Joint Committee on Finance and the Public Service on the legislation. It is unprecedented to proceed with Committee Stage of legislation before an Oireachtas committee has discussed the matters at the heart of it. The legislation deals with extremely serious issues, of which the most fundamental is the accountability of Government decisions. The decision of the Government to ride roughshod over a fundamental principle of our democracy, because it can, is an abuse of power and cannot be supported.

Terry Leyden (Fianna Fail)
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Freedom of information does not appear to be required when documents and reports are being leaked prematurely from the task force on medical staffing. Will the Leader of the House give a commitment that when the report is published, it will be brought before the House and the Minister will be invited to the House to discuss it? It is causing great concern. The leaked report, published in today's Irish Independent, indicates that some hospitals will be downgraded. This is causing unnecessary anxiety to staff and patients, particularly in hospitals such as Roscommon County Hospital where €8 million is being spent on the development of an accident and emergency department. Other developments are on stream as part of the major development of the hospital.

The same applies to Portiuncula Hospital which the Western Health Board bought in 2001 for €14 million. I was chairman of the board at the time. It is obvious that the Government will not buy a hospital for €14 million and then decide to remove some of its services. That would be ludicrous. I am amazed that these reports—

Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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These are matters for the debate.

Terry Leyden (Fianna Fail)
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Senator O'Toole has told us we can talk for 45 minutes.

Joe O'Toole (Independent)
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On the business of the House, not on an issue. That is the point.

Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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There is nothing in Standing Orders that allows speeches to be made.

Terry Leyden (Fianna Fail)
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I accept the Chair's ruling. I got bad advice from Senator O'Toole. It is a matter for the House to discuss a report. I am appalled by organisations and those who mischievously leak reports to try to undermine them before they are published. It is a matter for the Government and the House. I ask the Leader of the House to deal with this issue in March, if possible.

Michael Finucane (Fine Gael)
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I support the amendment proposed by Senator Brian Hayes and seconded by Senator O'Toole. There is great concern about a leaked report from the Garda authorities on the penalty points system. What is happening now will lead to an epidemic of leaked reports in future.

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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The Government is leaking all over the place.

Michael Finucane (Fine Gael)
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I find it rather strange that the Information Commissioner, whose remit includes the freedom of information legislation, was not even consulted when the report came out. The information was revealed as a result of freedom of information requests made by our party leader, Deputy Kenny, to the Department of Finance.

Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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That is not a relevant issue.

Michael Finucane (Fine Gael)
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It is relevant.

Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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It is not relevant.

David Norris (Independent)
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It is relevant that the Minister is not here.

Labhrás Ó Murchú (Fianna Fail)
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I wish to raise an issue that I know is of concern to many Members and to the wider community. I refer to the plight of our elderly emigrants, particularly in Britain, many of whom feel deserted and are living in deprived, insecure conditions. The Minister for Community, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs, Deputy Ó Cuív, raised this issue yesterday and went as far as to say that it was payback time for these emigrants.

It is estimated that over the years such emigrants invested up to £2 billion here in repatriated earnings, which many people consider provided the seed capital for the affluence we enjoy today. It would be wrong of us to ignore them and turn our backs at this stage. They are entitled to a dividend from the prosperity we currently enjoy. The Minister, Deputy Ó Cuív, should attend the House to discuss the matter with us.

Shane Ross (Independent)
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I endorse the comments made on both sides of the House about leaked documents. A serious issue arose yesterday concerning a leaked document on the penalty points system. It appears that some sabotage is going on regarding a very important programme that was launched by the Minister for Transport. We have heard that RTE obtained a report on the penalty points system, which seemed to spin in favour of the Garda Síochána.

If there is any question of the Garda Síochána spontaneously sabotaging a Government policy which aims to save lives, it is a serious matter. If that is the case, it is time we had a debate about the role of the Garda Síochána and what they are up to. Let us hope they are not acting as some sort of autonomous republic, independent of the Minister to whom they are answerable.

Martin Mansergh (Fianna Fail)
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I am not sure we are fully at the races here today.

Brian Hayes (Fine Gael)
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The Senator could sing that tune.

Martin Mansergh (Fianna Fail)
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We will be discussing a Bill, the central principle of which is hardly contested by anybody, viz. that memoranda to Government should be released after ten years instead of five.

Kathleen O'Meara (Labour)
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That is not true.

Martin Mansergh (Fianna Fail)
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It is a question of what the logical implications of that are.

Kathleen O'Meara (Labour)
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Has the Senator read the Bill?

Martin Mansergh (Fianna Fail)
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We should try to keep this in perspective. I would wish there were Ministers here from the relevant Department—

Brian Hayes (Fine Gael)
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Hear, hear.

Martin Mansergh (Fianna Fail)
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—but as Wolfe Tone used to say, "'Tis but in vain for soldiers to complain." As my good friend, Deputy Noel Davern, who gave me an excellent tip for the first race this afternoon, said—

Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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That is not relevant to the Order of Business.

Martin Mansergh (Fianna Fail)
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May I finish the point? The Irish people, a Chathaoirligh, may be in Cheltenham more in spirit than otherwise.

Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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That is not relevant to the Order of Business.

James Bannon (Fine Gael)
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The Government currently resembles a badly worn car tyre which is leaking all over the place. The only option is to change it.

Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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Do you have a question for the Leader concerning the Order of Business?

James Bannon (Fine Gael)
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We have had leak after leak and some of them have been referred to today. We have the task force on medical staff—

Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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Do you have a question for the Leader?

James Bannon (Fine Gael)
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This is undermining the morale of the staff in all our hospitals.

Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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Do you have a question for the Leader?

James Bannon (Fine Gael)
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I have, yes.

Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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Put the question.

James Bannon (Fine Gael)
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It is important that we have a debate on this issue. Why are we sending so many patients abroad when we are funding a report, the findings of which recommend reducing the number of original hospitals to 11? That is scandalous. In addition, accident and emergency services in hospitals are being downgraded. The people will not tolerate this. It is important that we have a proper debate on this issue and not one in which Members will be hoodwinked. In that context, I refer to the motion introduced by the Progressive Democrats last week which welcomed what the Government is spending on the health services at a time when it is not spending anything on them.

Michael Kitt (Fianna Fail)
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I support what other Members said about the leaked reports. What is happening concerning those reports is disgraceful. I refer not only to the report in regard to the penalty points system but also the Hanley report on the task force on medical manpower, to which reference was made. That report examined services in the Mid-Western Health Board area and Eastern Area Health Authority and concluded that many regional hospitals should be downgraded. I understand that other hospitals are to suffer the same fate. I ask the Leader to arrange a debate on the Hanley report.

The issue concerning Portiuncula Hospital, Ballinasloe, affects not only the west but also the midlands. A public meeting on this issue will be held in Athlone in the coming days. Other issues involving the funding of the health services and the future of the health board structure will soon be the subject of debate. Therefore, it would be timely to have a debate on the health services as soon as possible.

Joanna Tuffy (Labour)
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I support Senator Ó Murchú's call for the Minister, Deputy Ó Cúiv, to come before the House to discuss the issue of Irish emigrants. I note he is quoted today as saying that it is payback time for these emigrants and that many of them are worse off in their host countries than they would be here. I would like the Minister to explain what the Government is doing to support those emigrants, particularly those who would like to return here but are prohibited from doing so because of the cost of housing. What is done to ensure the availability of housing for emigrants who wish to return to Ireland?

John Minihan (Progressive Democrats)
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I join previous speakers in raising the issue of leaked documents, particularly the document leaked by gardaí in recent days. This is a serious issue given that gardaí are trusted as the custodians of the security of the State and its institutions. If such leaks are taking place, I ask the Leader to inquire from the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform if it is his intention to hold an inquiry into the matter. Regardless of the contents of the leak, the fundamental issue is that, as Senator Ross stated, custodians of the security of this State leaked a document. There are serious questions regarding the motives behind this leak. On the other hand, we should congratulate the Garda, regardless of its motives, on its efficiency in carrying out a review in such a short period. Considering that the penalty points system was only introduced in November, one begs to question the motives behind the review and the purpose of this leak. I ask the Leader to take up this matter with the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform as a matter of urgency.

David Norris (Independent)
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With regard to the question of leaks, it is a feature of political life that virtually every Minister leaks information. If Senator Leyden is in the situation of never having committed a sin, then of course he is entitled to cast a stone. My understanding is that virtually all Ministers leak information from time to time. What is unusual about the matter raised by Senators Finucane and Ross about the Garda—

Terry Leyden (Fianna Fail)
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I did not engage in such—

David Norris (Independent)
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—is that it has not been established that it was the Garda which leaked the document. However, it was certainly unusual that the Garda established a body to monitor and review a situation and published a report after a mere three months. That does look a little like jockeying for position and ordinary members of the public – I include myself in this – would, I imagine, be concerned that this is a kind of bargaining lever the Garda is using in order to obtain either more pay or additional personnel.

Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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Is the Senator seeking a debate?

David Norris (Independent)
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The Cathaoirleach has divined it; that is precisely what I am seeking. I support my colleagues in requesting such a debate.

I also want to seek a debate on another matter. When will the Leader consider taking No. 16, motion No. 14, on Tibet or a similar motion? There is a serious reason that such a motion should be taken. Questions were recently asked in the Dáil about Tibet and the Minister, Deputy Cowen, gave the following reply:

On 3 December I set out the approach of Ireland and our EU partners to Tibet. There has been no change of policy in this regard. In common with its EU partners, Ireland regards Tibet as an integral part of China and the Government of the People's Republic of China as the only legal Government of China.

That is not true. It is time we called the Minister for Foreign Affairs to the House to explain why such a violent and undiscussed change of policy has taken place.

When we entered diplomatic relations with China in 1979 no mention was made of this in the discussions or exchanges of documents. The former Fianna Fáil Minister, the excellent Frank Aiken, in debates at the United Nations in 1961 and 1965—

Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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Senator—

David Norris (Independent)
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—said on the record that Tibet had a greater right to independence than most of the countries in the UN at that time. Let us hear from Deputy Cowen why this change has occurred. He seems to be at the races on this matter as well.

Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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The Senator can raise those points with the Minister.

David Norris (Independent)
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I support my colleagues' amendment to the Order of Business. I regard the Cathaoirleach and the Leader as fine officers of the Seanad and decent people. They have been placed in a most invidious position because they and the Seanad are being run by the bully boys of the Dáil, with a contempt for democracy and the people. It is no wonder the profession of politics is held in contempt when a Bill is rammed through Parliament in the absence of information from the Information Commissioner—

Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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The Senator has made his point.

David Norris (Independent)
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—and while the two principal Ministers concerned are gadding around in Cheltenham.

(Interruptions).

David Norris (Independent)
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It is an absolute disgrace and the Cathaoirleach is quite wrong in saying the absence of the Minister is not relevant. It could not be more relevant. He is the Minister charged by the people with responsibility in this area.

Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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I have eight Senators offering and there are only six minutes left. I doubt I will reach them all.

Camillus Glynn (Fianna Fail)
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There must be an election.

Michael Finucane (Fine Gael)
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The sooner the better.

Camillus Glynn (Fianna Fail)
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I support the remarks of Senator Leyden and others regarding the leaked reports. I also call for a press council to be established. Such a request has been made on many occasions. Some of the local and national newspaper reports on these leaks have no basis in fact, but the corrected versions of events do not enjoy the same status in the newspapers as the incorrect reports that preceded them. It seems that if the truth stands in the way of a story, then the story wins every time.

Sheila Terry (Fine Gael)
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I also wish to raise the leaked report, which seems to concern many Senators. I am particularly concerned by the Garda report on the penalty points system, which is good and has been shown to save lives. If the situation is as reported, however, it is a serious concern. The system must run properly so that people have faith in it and lives are saved. We have raised the issue of Garda resources on many occasions. Where are the additional 2,000 gardaí that were promised by the Government?

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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Hear, hear.

Sheila Terry (Fine Gael)
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I welcome the official opening of the National Aquatic Centre yesterday by the Taoiseach. That facility was paid for by taxpayers' money. I seek a debate on something the Taoiseach said at the opening.

Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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That is not relevant.

Sheila Terry (Fine Gael)
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He said it took him 16 minutes to get from O'Connell Street to Snugboro.

Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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What the Taoiseach said is not a matter for the Order of Business.

Sheila Terry (Fine Gael)
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The Minister for Transport should explain why it takes people one hour to get from Blanchardstown to the city centre while the Taoiseach can do it in 16 minutes.

Senators:

Hear, hear.

Maurice Hayes (Independent)
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I look forward to the debate on hospitals, a matter in respect of which I am in absolute opposition to almost everything which has been said so far. I hope people do not play politics with hospitals because they are far too important. We should not toss around words like "downgrading". It is a question of whether one wants five or six hospitals in the premier league or two dozen in the third division. I know which option I would take.

I find it ironic that Members are getting into a lather about leaks and freedom of information. It is an indication of the complexity of the subject. In a previous incarnation, I used to investigate leaks and I generally found they were more a case of the reservoir overflowing than of information being deliberately leaked. I would not put all the blame on the press.

The last point I wish to make has been made more difficult by Senator Norris because I do not want to throw accusations around. With regard to the dignity of the House, it is a pity the relevant Minister will not be here when serious legislation, the Freedom of Information (Amendment) Bill, is being taken. While I support large parts of the Bill, other significant sections of it could be improved on Committee Stage. We cannot, however, do anything on Committee Stage if the relevant Minister is not present.

Brian Hayes (Fine Gael)
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Correct.

Fergal Browne (Fine Gael)
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I agree with previous speakers' calls for the Minister for Health and Children to come before the House to debate the leaked report of the task force on medical staffing, particularly in light of the news that major cuts are being announced in the Mater Hospital today. This is a worrying development which throws the health strategy into chaos. When the main hospital in Dublin is cutting jobs and beds it calls into question plans to improve services and increase bed capacity.

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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I seek a debate on transport. I ask the Leader to arrange for the Minister for Transport to come before the House to debate the many overruns in major transport projects. These are having a serious effect on other projects in the queue for funding. The issue should be debated as a matter of urgency.

Noel Coonan (Fine Gael)
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I am alarmed and concerned by the verbal attack by members of the Government parties on members of the Garda Síochána. I ask the Leader to request that the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform come before the House to debate the reason the Garda Síochána is not being given the additional resources, manpower and equipment it needs to enforce the legislation introduced by the Government. I demand an explanation regarding the reason the Garda is being attacked by a Government which is taking a position best described as trying to shoot the messenger.

Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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The Senator may not discuss the issue.

Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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I call Senator Coghlan.

Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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I ask the Senator to resume his seat.

Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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We cannot discuss this issue. I have made a ruling on this matter.

Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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I ask the Senator to resume his seat, please.

Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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The Senator must resume his seat. He should also stop laughing.

Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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The Senator is smiling.

Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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There will be no clarification given. I have made a ruling on the matter.

Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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I call on the Leader to reply.

Paul Coghlan (Fine Gael)
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Before the Leader replies—

Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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The Leader to reply.

Paul Coghlan (Fine Gael)
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The Cathaoirleach has left me out.

Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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Senator Brian Hayes, Leader of the Opposition, proposed an amendment to the Order of Business.

Joe O'Toole (Independent)
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On a point of order, this is impossible. Two speakers are standing which is grossly unfair to those who should be entitled to make their point.

Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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Senator O'Toole, time is up. Senator Feighan raised a point that I had ruled out of order and he would not accept my ruling. I had to go ahead—

Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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Time is up. I now call the Leader to reply.

Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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Senator Brian Hayes proposed an amendment to the Order of Business, on which I expect there will be a vote. He spoke about the Minister with responsibility for the Freedom of Information (Amendment) Bill not being present. An excellent Minister of State will come into the House to deal with the Bill and I know all Senators will observe the courtesies in that regard.

Senator O'Toole seconded Senator Brian Hayes's motion. He spoke about the Information Commissioner and the fact that useful amendments were often tabled on Committee Stage which made good changes to legislation and wondered if that would happen on this occasion. Senator O'Meara agreed with the two earlier speakers and said it was an abuse of power.

Senator Leyden raised the matter of the Hanly report referred to in the newspapers today. I understand there are two major reports, the Brennan report and the Hanly report, and as soon as they are officially issued, they could be the focus for a useful debate in the House.

Senator Finucane supported Senator Brian Hayes and said that while some Senators were not critical of the Ministers' absence, he was on this occasion.

Senator Ó Murchú, echoing a speech which I understand the Minister for Community, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs gave in County Mayo, spoke about the plight of elderly emigrants who, he said, were now entitled to a dividend from our current prosperity. Senator Tuffy supported Senator Ó Murchú on the question of emigrants, in particular the housing needed for elderly emigrants returning to this country. We will ask the Minister when he can come to the House to talk about the issue.

Senator Ross raised the issue of the penalty points report which he said appeared to have been leaked by the Garda. We do not know who leaked it—

Noel Coonan (Fine Gael)
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He accused the Garda.

Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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—but it is a difficult situation when a strategy worked out by the Minister and the Government was proving to be such a major success in that the number of fatal accidents, in particular, had declined greatly, about which everybody is very pleased. The concern now is that people will again get careless on the road. Very few are speeding and it would be a great pity if that practice was to resume.

Apparently, Senator Mansergh got a good tip—

Michael Finucane (Fine Gael)
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For Cheltenham.

Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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—which he did not share with us.

Brian Hayes (Fine Gael)
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No votes for the Senator the next time.

Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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Senator Bannon talked about hospitals and asked about the need to treat patients outside the country when reports were being issued about hospitals here. I would welcome a debate on the Hanly and Brennan reports when they are issued. Senator Kitt referred to the position in which Portiuncula Hospital found itself following the report in the newspapers.

Senator Minihan referred to the leaked Garda report. It appears that way but we must await developments in that regard. The Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform was quite explicit. As I understand it, he did not berate anybody but simply made clear that he had not been asked for extra resources. Senator Norris asked whether it was the Garda which had leaked the report. We should suspend judgment until we know more. The Senator also called for a debate on No. 14 on the Order Paper, an extensive motion about Tibet. He also supported Senator Brian Hayes.

David Norris (Independent)
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Will we have a debate on Tibet?

Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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I hope we will when we get ourselves together again. Senator Glynn called for the establishment of a press council.

Noel Coonan (Fine Gael)
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The Leader may have been careful but Members on her side were not.

Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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Senator Brian Hayes has proposed an amendment to the Order of Business. Is it being pressed?

Brian Hayes (Fine Gael)
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Yes.

Amendment put: "That No. 2 be deleted from today's Order of Business."

Tá