Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context

The Order of Business shall be No. 1, statements on the levels of suicide in Ireland, to be taken at the conclusion of the Order of Business until 1.30 p.m. or whenever they conclude, whichever is earlier, with the contributions of spokespersons not to exceed 15 minutes and those of all other Senators not to exceed ten minutes and on which Members may share time.

Brian Hayes (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context

We agree to the Order of Business. The exercise yesterday where Members of the House had the opportunity to question Mr. Proinsias De Rossa, a member of the Convention on the Future of Europe, was most worthwhile. The Whips should meet in advance of next week's meeting to see if all Members can be involved in the questioning. It was an excellent debate for those who took part – one third of the membership of the House participated. It was the first opportunity that any plenary session of any European Parliament had to question a member of the Convention and I compliment the Leader of the House on the initiative.

Joe O'Toole (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context

The last matter raised by Senator Brian Hayes has been discussed by the Joint Committee on Finance and the Public Service. The Revenue Commissioners and the Ombudsman have appeared before the committee to discuss it and it will be making a recommendation on the matter in the next ten days. There was a lengthy session with the Ombudsman and the Chairman of the Revenue Commissioners.

I have previously raised the practices of the auctioneering profession. Since then a number of people have outlined to me the bad experiences they have had. I have example after example of auctioneers working on both sides of deals and bumping up prices to catch unwary punters. This is particularly unpleasant when first-time buyers are so vulnerable and need a roof over their heads. The vast majority of auctioneers are honest but the profession must be regulated and a more open method of auctioneering introduced. They provide a vital service. It is as important that we can rely on them as it is that we can rely on auditors and accountants. Every Senator could give examples of sharp practice. There should be a full debate on the matter with a view to the Government establishing an inquiry into how the business can be regulated in the future.

Brendan Ryan (Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context

Something extraordinary happened yesterday. It relates to a matter which the Leader and I have often discussed. The Convention on the Future of Europe was discussed at great length in this House, although one would not pick this up from the newspaper coverage. I hope the media in general will spare me their sanctimonious editorials over the next six months about politicians not doing their job of informing people of what is happening at the Convention. We cannot and should not determine what the media deal with – that would be entirely wrong – but let us at least be spared the sanctimonious editorials. The meeting of the Joint Committee on European Affairs was covered by The Irish Times but I regarded the debate in this House as an extremely useful exercise.

On a related matter, I ask the Leader to find out the reason the Government wishes to delete a reference to the rights of children from the draft European constitution. In a country which has experienced such trauma in relation to the neglect of our children, for which nobody is entirely free of guilt or responsibility, why would we propose an amendment to the draft constitution for Europe to exclude a guarantee of the rights of children? That is a mystery to me. I suspect it is also a mystery to the Leader and I ask her to find out the reason. In yesterday's debate Proinsias De Rossa lavishly praised the work at the Convention of the Minister of State with responsibility for European Affairs. Perhaps the Leader will catch up with him and establish the motivation for that position.

The issue of law and order is most important. However, no matter what debates we have in this House, if the public believes the law is not the same for everybody, we will not be taken seriously. If the Garda Commissioner feels free to say gardaí may break the speed limits when they like, without guidelines or a code of practice, the right impression is not being created. I fully accept that, for reasons of national security or in dealing with crime, gardaí have to do certain things, as is also the case with ambulances. However, if the Garda Commissioner's view is that, just because one is a garda, one can do what one likes and if he does not believe—

A Senator:

That is not what he said.

Brendan Ryan (Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context

That is, effectively, what he said in his letter – that it was up to individual gardaí to make the decision according to no criteria. He wrote to the National Safety Council. That gave extremely bad example and is not the way to inculcate respect for the law in the population at large.

Let me also ask the Leader what is happening to the Local Government Bill 2003. We have read of rebellions and threats of constitutional action, about which we have not heard in the House.

(Interruptions).

An Leas-Chathaoirleach:

Senator Ryan, without interruption.

Brendan Ryan (Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context

Every journalist in Leinster House appears to know more about the differing views than this House in which the Bill is being debated. I invite Senators on the Government side to let us have a little of the action on their inside rebellion. We might even throw in a contribution to their constitutional challenge if they speak nicely to us. Senator O'Toole reckons we have loads of money. We would like to know the situation.

Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context

The debate on the Bill in this House is ongoing.

John Dardis (Progressive Democrats)
Link to this: Individually | In context

Perhaps the Senator should consult Deputy Michael Ring.

Brendan Ryan (Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context

My favourite Deputy in Cork North-Central is also threatening to contribute to the fund. It no longer involves Deputy Ring alone – it has broadened out further. Perhaps the Senators are in total agreement and will not object. Nevertheless, it would be appropriate for the House to hear of these matters and have a real debate and, of course, a free vote.

Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context

The House is in the middle of a debate on the Bill.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach:

I have allowed Senator Ryan considerable latitude at this stage.

Brendan Ryan (Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context

Will the Leader ascertain from the Minister for Environment and Local Government if there will be significant amendments to the Local Government Bill 2003 in this House or does the Minister intend to rush it through and deal with the amendments in the other House when they become troublesome?

Ann Ormonde (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context

I support the comments of Senator Brian Hayes on 'binning the blade'. This is a very serious development, particularly in our cities. It goes beyond a breakdown in law and order and raises questions about the entire fabric of society such as why is it crumbling around us and what is going on? This is supposed to be a fairly wealthy country, yet there is decadence all around us. The issue goes back to the home. What are parents doing in terms of their responsibilities? It involves a wider discussion than simply calling in the Garda. Our value system seems to be changing. Perhaps "bin the blade" forms part of it but we need a wider discussion in the House.

Noel Coonan (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context

As the holder of an auctioneer's licence, I wish to respond to Senator O'Toole. Perhaps he is confusing the positions of estate agents and auctioneers. Auctioneers are subject to an annual review by the District Court. If one is not performing properly, one will have to account for oneself in court and one's licence may be revoked. Certainly, if one meets Justice Martin, one must have everything in order. I suspect that the Senator's problem may relate to estate agents and acknowledge the point he is making.

Camillus Glynn (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context

I strongly support the comments of Senator Brian Hayes and those of Senator Norris on a previous day in relation to the use of knives and other such implements. In the case of anybody found carrying a knife of a type used in many serious assaults, many of them fatal, a mandatory sentence should be handed down to such an individual. With modern advanced technology, night clubs and disco centres should have the appropriate screening of patrons entering the premises to ensure they have no offensive weapons on their person. Such articles are not carried for the purpose of paring a pencil or one's fingernails but rather to inflict serious injury on anybody who "looks crooked" at the individual concerned. It is time we took this very serious matter in hand. I would welcome an early debate on it in the House.

James Bannon (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context

Two Senators on the Government side have spoken of crime, acknowledging that the situation is out of control. Where is the "zero tolerance" document presented before the last general election? Is it with the fairies somewhere in County Kerry at this stage? The Government parties should get their act together. They are in Government to tackle this problem and I ask them to do what they can to allay the fears of the people.

There is a very serious problem in the midlands with regard to the grill net fishing, pike by-laws and angling permits.

Timmy Dooley (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context

The Senator is in the Seanad now, not the county council.

James Bannon (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context

This is having a devastating effect on our tourism industry. Last year the number of pike anglers visiting Ireland dropped from 45,000 to 12,000. At present there is a boycott taking place on the Shannon waterways over the angling licensing permits. It is an issue that the Minister for Communications, Marine and Natural Resources should be invited to debate here.

Timmy Dooley (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context

I join Senator O'Toole in calling for a debate on auctioneers because there is an element of innuendo in this House. Senator Ross has tabled a motion in condemnation of auctioneers. Many of us know some fine auctioneers. Certainly any of the experiences or stories that I have heard have always been in support of auctioneers and a debate would help to clarify this matter.

David Norris (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context

I am grateful to Senator Brian Hayes for raising the matter of knife attacks and also to Senator Ormonde for calling for a wider debate. This is a very serious subject because it is so insidious. In the interview I heard, the Garda inspector said that often the people who had been stabbed did not realise how seriously they had been injured, and they managed to run away. He said that sometimes police had interviewed people who did not realise they were dying as a result of such injuries.

Sometimes the people who inflict these wounds are unaware of the fact that they are committing murder. Therefore there is a developing series of tragedies. There is the awful death of beautiful young people stabbed and done to death. Then there is the perpetrator. Often these attacks are fuelled by alcohol. There are the families on both sides who are left to deal with it. It is a serious matter and I am glad that it has been taken up so seriously by this House. I hope that we will have an opportunity to debate it and to introduce whatever amendments are necessary to deal with the carrying of knives.

I am not sure that these attacks take place frequently within nightclubs. One of the problems is people are pushed out by the nightclub proprietors on to the streets – I have warned continually over the years about this – and they do not take responsibility. They do not summon the police when there is a fracas outside and death is the result.

I ask that the House note the extraordinary development yesterday in the neighbouring island, the United Kingdom, where Mr. Blair suffered a stunning political reverse. It was the largest backbench revolt in history against the Government, during which one former Labour Cabinet Minister described the United States President's actions as the actions of "a maverick state".

In the light of these very dangerous developments and the continuing situation, I urge that this House should continue to monitor the situation and have a series of rolling debates on it. We have had a very useful, dignified and important debate on this matter, but as we go towards war the situation is changing. It is important that even a small country like this should have its voice heard. We should be questioning again our involvement in a war in which Mr. Bush made it very clear last night that he will go it alone anyway. He does not care what the United Nations says. There is a certain cosmetic element. There may be some restraint, through Mr. Blair, because of the difficulties in which the Prime Minister has found himself. I would like to think this House would play a role in this.

Martin Mansergh (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context

Hear, hear.

Paul Bradford (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context

The Leader will have seen the most recent so-called expert safety report on landfills and incineration. Not surprisingly, it reached no particular conclusions. I ask the Leader to allow time at the earliest opportunity for a debate in this House on the issue of waste management.

The Minister and his predecessor tried to put through a particular policy. Every local authority appears to be doing something different and there appears to be no centralised waste management policy. Most local authorities are struggling to come up with a solution and leadership is needed from the Oireachtas and from the Department. There are dozens of reports at this stage which do not reach any conclusion. Political action is required and we should kick off in this House by having a lengthy debate on waste management. There is a crisis facing every local authority and action is now needed.

Joe McHugh (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context

About four years ago an employment task force strategy was set up in Donegal in light of the decline in the traditional manufacturing sector, that is, textiles. That strategy was set up to look at alternative industry for the region by the Tánaiste and Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment, Deputy Harney. It is imperative that we bring the Tánaiste into the House in light of recent job losses and the news today that 30 more jobs are being lost in Donegal, and also because the task force document has not worked.

I make no apologies for being parochial on this issue because it has been on the back-burner. Even during the times when allegedly there was a Celtic tiger in Donegal there was always a decline in the manufacturing and textile industry. We need to delegate that brief to the Minister for Community, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs, Deputy Ó Cuív. That is the brief which will sustain jobs in Donegal by creating small-scale localised indigenous industries. We have to change our stance and also our strategy on employment. I urge the Leader to invite the Tánaiste. It is relevant not only to Donegal but also to the rest of the country.

Frank Feighan (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context

I thank our esteemed Leader—

Brian Hayes (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context

It sounds like North Korea, does it not?

Frank Feighan (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context

—our dear Leader, for clarifying the recently highlighted issue concerning TV licences and old age pensioners. Because of our intervention, pensioners all over this country are relieved and satisfied that this initiative will not affect them.

Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context

Senator Feighan's intervention.

Frank Feighan (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context

There is one question I want to ask the Leader. Over the past two months I have highlighted the neglect of rolling stock on the Sligo rail line. Last week, once again, a train left Dublin without a working heating system. I know, from within Iarnród Éireann, that this is due to lack of maintenance. In talking to the people in Iarnród Éireann, I did not get a satisfactory response. I urge the Leader to ask the Minister to invite Joe Meagher, the chief executive officer of Iarnród Éireann, to come in and explain why the north-west is being neglected.

Marc MacSharry (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context

Further to Senator Feighan's points relating to the Sligo-Dublin rail line, I am supportive of the points he made. However, I would not feel it necessary to call in the Minister if we requested the Leader to ask the Minister to instruct Iarnród Éireann to put some of the 80 carriages which have been bought, which are bound for the Cork line, on to the Sligo-Dublin line rather than maintaining the 40 year old stock currently in use.

Joe O'Toole (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context

And a dining car.

Brian Hayes (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context

It is time to nationalise CIE.

Michael Finucane (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context

I am glad Senator Ryan referred to the issue I raised yesterday, the decision by the Garda Commissioner to write to the National Safety Council stating that it was at the discretion of the Garda drivers of Ministers to decide at what speed they should drive. At the time I said it was a very bad example to set.

Some 6,000 motorists have received penalty points since the system was introduced. The insurance industry is responding positively to this change. The Taoiseach would do a lot of good if he made a statement to the effect that the Ministers' cars would be driven within the set speed limits and lead by example. The young people involved in the vox pop taken by one of the newspapers last night all responded by asking why our legislators are not leading by example, as we should.

Brian Hayes (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context

Hear, hear.

Michael Finucane (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context

We all have cars of our own, in many cases powerful cars. We have moderated our feet on the pedals in order to conform to the speed limits. There is no need under any circumstances for a Minister's car to speed. I respect the Leader for her positive response yesterday in agreeing that Ministers should lead by example. If the Taoiseach wants to make a positive statement, he should ignore the advice given and instruct his Ministers to drive within the normal speed limits that apply to everyone else.

There is extreme disappointment at the abolition of the summer jobs scheme. Many of our students go to America during the summer months but this summer there will be a drastic shortage of jobs there because of the economic downturn. It was the wrong time to abolish the scheme. It was means tested and had 4,500 participants last year. Of those, 1,300 came from homes dependent on social welfare. Many of those homes would find it extremely difficult, if a son or daughter wanted to go to the United States to get a summer job, even to find the fare. It is a retrograde step, a surreptitious cut from the Government.

Senators:

Speech.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach:

Is the Senator looking for a debate?

Michael Finucane (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context

No. I want the Minister for Social and Family Affairs to come to the House and announce that the scheme is being reintroduced.

Senators:

Hear, hear.

Eamon Scanlon (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context

I support Senators Feighan and MacSharry in their concerns about the Sligo railway line. We have the best line in the country, about which there is no question, but the rolling stock is totally unsuitable. There are trains with no buffet car and no heating. As Senator MacSharry said, this is because of the age of the rolling stock.

Senator O'Toole mentioned auctioneers. I also have some knowledge of the business and it is the only profession I know in which one must go before a court every year to have one's licence renewed. The judge asks whether anybody has an objection to the licence's being renewed and the superintendent replies. If there is, one loses one's licence. The profession is heavily policed as it is. However, in every business there are those who do not perform as they should. I would welcome a debate on this issue to clear the air because it has been raised in this House on a number of occasions, sometimes not in a very nice way. It is important to get it out of the way once and for all.

Mary Henry (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context

I support Senator Norris's request to the Leader for another debate on Iraq due to the constantly changing situation. Representatives of a total of 114 non-aligned states met in Kuala Lumpur the other day. Senators will have noticed the alarming statement that came out of the meeting to the effect that an attack on Iraq would be viewed as an attack on Islam.

John Minihan (Progressive Democrats)
Link to this: Individually | In context

I join previous speakers in calling on the Leader to ask the Minister for Transport to take action with regard to Iarnród Éireann. However, to suggest that we allocate rolling stock and decide where it should go is a little over the top. As we are talking about pulling rolling stock off the Sligo-Dublin line, I remind Members that last Sunday a train left Cork with absolutely no toilets. It stopped in Charleville to allow passengers to use the facilities there, only to discover that all toilets in question were also locked.

Brian Hayes (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context

It is worse than Calcutta.

John Minihan (Progressive Democrats)
Link to this: Individually | In context

The problems are not unique to the Sligo line.

(Interruptions).

John Minihan (Progressive Democrats)
Link to this: Individually | In context

I got a lecture last night on manners from Senator Bannon. Perhaps he should lecture his own party members.

For Iarnród Éireann to offer the passengers concerned a 50% refund is a great insult. There is a basic contract between service provider and passenger and basic facilities must be provided. If they are not, Iarnród Éireann has no right to charge the going rate or any fare at all.

Maurice Cummins (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context

We have discussed several times the scourge of under age drinking. When will the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform introduce legislation or regulations to deal with under-age gambling? It is ludicrous that, although children are not allowed into bookmakers, they can bet on the tote at any dog track or race track. This has been brought to my attention by many people, including tourists, who cannot understand how young people can bet on the tote when it is illegal to go into bookies. We have a gambling culture. I am not averse to having a flutter myself—

John Dardis (Progressive Democrats)
Link to this: Individually | In context

The Senator is backing this one each way.

Maurice Cummins (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context

It is a very serious subject. Gamblers Anonymous and everybody who deals with gambling see this as a major problem. I hope the Minister will treat this seriously and introduce some legislation to deal with it. I ask the Leader to find out whether there is any legislation pending.

Reading this morning's newspaper, I saw that the number of patients on trolleys in hospitals was increasing again and that there were to be cutbacks in dialysis and other services. In view of this, some of the comments made on the other side of the House last night should be withdrawn.

Senators:

Hear, hear.

Michael Kitt (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context

I support the comments about Iarnród Éireann. We should have a debate on the recent railway study which the Leader of the House was instrumental in initiating. While there are problems on different lines, the service from Dublin to Galway is very good. Unfortunately, however, in recent weeks there have been a number of fights on trains, causing them to be held up at stations. Last Sunday a train was stopped in Athenry for half an hour while gardaí were called to deal with the culprits. This is something that could be covered under a full debate on the railways.

Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context

I thank Senator Brian Hayes for his comments on Proinsias De Rossa's visit here yesterday. It was a most worthwhile debate and we look forward to hearing the Minister of State at the Department of Foreign Affairs, Deputy Roche, and Deputy John Bruton on the subject.

Senator Brian Hayes also mentioned the proliferation of knives. The problem is that there has been a breakdown in consideration for others, due to a lack of respect for one's self and for others. It is hugely worrying. The Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform is very keen to come to the House but he is attending committees dealing with legislation. Senator Dardis has asked him to come and he will when he gets the time.

The issue of back payments to widows was taken up by Senator O'Toole who told us the Joint Committee on Finance and the Public Service would be issuing a statement on the matter within a week. We are glad to hear this. He also asked for a debate on the auctioneering profession.

Senator Ryan mentioned media coverage of what goes on in the House and I agree. What the media cover is up to them but we are endeavouring to put forward the Seanad as an innovative Chamber, capable of change. Mr. De Rossa did himself good by conducting the debate in such an open fashion and the next two should be the same.

Senator Ryan then spoke about the rights of children in the draft European constitution. In that context, I understand that an amendment was tabled by the Minister of State at the Department of the Taoiseach, Deputy Roche, to a particular sub-article in the Convention on the Future of Europe. However, that is a far cry from the Government adopting a position on the issue. The Minister of State will come before the House on 4 March and Members can ask him about the matter at that stage.

Senator Ryan also referred to the Garda and to an individual garda who the commissioner said was performing a particular duty. He also asked if there was confusion in the Government, which there is not.

Brian Hayes (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context

This is a vocational Chamber.

Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context

The Senator also requested a debate on the national lottery, which would be useful.

Senators Glynn, Bannon and Norris called for a debate on crime, particularly the sub-culture of crimes involving the use of knives and the huge disregard for human life.

Senator Bannon echoed Senator Leyden's remarks on fishing. I understand that the agreements to which they referred were made at local and regional level, but we will investigate the matter.

Senator Dooley seemed keen on the debate on auctioneering. Is the Senator an auctioneer?

Timmy Dooley (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context

No, I am not.

John Dardis (Progressive Democrats)
Link to this: Individually | In context

He is thinking of going into the business.

Noel Coonan (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context

The Senator is too straitlaced.

Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context

Senator Scanlon defended auctioneers, correctly pointing out that they have an annual review of how they do their business.

Senators Norris and Henry stated that as the situation concerning Iraq is changing constantly, we should have further debate on the matter.

Senator Bradford referred to the Waste Management Bill, of which we have had Second and Committee Stages in the House. We have also had extensive debates on the environment, including that on the Protection of the Environment Bill, to which many Senators from all sides contributed. The Bill will be debated again next week. I do not know how it is possible to engage in constant debate on one issue.

Senator McHugh referred to the task force established by the Tánaiste in Donegal and the decline in traditional textile industries there. It is a sad fact that, because of technology and new fabrics, traditional textile industries have experienced a major decline. This has been happening since the 1960s but has now reached a serious point. I spoke to the Tánaiste a few days ago and she is keen to come before the House in approximately two weeks.

Marc MacSharry (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context

Just the 40 new ones.

Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context

Senator Kitt spoke about good rail track, but also called for a debate on rail transport policy.

Senator Finucane referred to Garda ministerial drivers and asked that the Taoiseach issue a directive to them. He also referred to the shortage of summer jobs and asked that the Minister for Social and Family Affairs, Deputy Coghlan come before the House to discuss the matter. The Minister will be in the House for the Social Welfare Bill in the near future, so we could deal with it at that point.

Senator Cummins called for a debate on under age gambling, which is similar to the debate Senator Ormonde requested. Crime is a deeper issue, involving more than just Garda numbers and the penal system. Crime among young people involves issues such as parental control, lifestyles and peer pressure, of which teachers, including Senator Ormonde, have a greater knowledge. We need to approach the problems from wider angles, other than calls to flog them and put them in prison.

Order of Business agreed to.