Seanad debates
Tuesday, 4 February 2003
Order of Business.
2:30 pm
Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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Today's Order of Business is No. 2, Immigration Bill 2002 – Report and Final Stages, to be concluded today.
Brian Hayes (Fine Gael)
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I have no objection, in principle, to the Order of Business as proposed by the Leader of the House. I wish to raise two issues. The Leader is probably aware that last week there were leaks in the newspapers concerning a Government appointed commission on the health issue, chaired by Professor Niamh Brennan. Within its report very radical changes are set out concerning the management of the health service. It seems that the Minister for Finance, Deputy McCreevy, has won out against the Minister for Health and Children, Deputy Martin, in regard to the need for changes in the management structure under one umbrella and a way in which to deliver a health service that is cost-efficient but effective. I ask for an opportunity to debate in the House the report when published. Excellent reports like this are sometimes left on a shelf and never debated in the Houses of the Oireachtas. When published, perhaps the Ministers for Health and Children and Finance will come to the House to debate the issue because it is important to review strategies.
Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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Does the Senator want the Ministers to appear before the House together?
Brian Hayes (Fine Gael)
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If they do not come in together, perhaps the Leader's persuasive techniques will persuade them to come here anyway.
Brian Hayes (Fine Gael)
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Will the Leader join me in welcoming the Irish Rugby Football Union's change of mind last week?
Brian Hayes (Fine Gael)
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It has decided to support professional rugby in Connacht as we go forward, despite the mutterings of the Montenotte set in this House.
John Minihan (Progressive Democrats)
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Is Senator Hayes referring to me?
John Minihan (Progressive Democrats)
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That is fine, but the Senator should be more specific.
Geraldine FeeneyBrian Hayes (Fine Gael)
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I welcome the cross-party support for the motion that was debated last week, when at last the Seanad proved its relevance.
Joe O'Toole (Independent)
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As somebody who spends a great deal of his time involved in negotiations, I have always felt that timing is important. I would appreciate if the Leader could convey her personal congratulations to the leader of the Fine Gael Party in this House on his extraordinarily excellent timing in tabling the motion on Connacht rugby last week rather than this week. The choice of motion was courageous and effective. I congratulate my Fine Gael colleagues and I welcome the fact that the motion received all-party support. Given that Fine Gael was so successful with its motion regarding Connacht rugby, may I ask it to turn its attention to solving the problems in Iraq?
Senator Brian Hayes mentioned the health report, which will have implications for taxpayers and the health services. I firmly believe that the publication of the report will be the biggest news story of the year and I appeal to Members on all sides to address the matter in a non-party political way. The report's recommendations will be revolutionary and a fresh and creative approach will be needed if they are going to work. I am concerned that politicians on all sides will dig in to protect structures that we have criticised for so long. We need to operate creatively and differently as we move forward and nobody should be allowed to speak in partisan terms on this issue. Perhaps the House will need to invite people other than the two Ministers to speak here. I suggest that officials from the commission be invited to address the issue.
Negotiations on a new national pay agreement are close to a conclusion. It would be appropriate to debate this matter in the House, even before the deal is adopted or otherwise. Some things remain to be done and people have an opportunity to be creative at a time when the country faces economic and financial difficulties. I would welcome a debate on the matter.
I would also like to bring to the attention of the House, in deference to the conscience of those who feel it is beyond them to accept the rate they are offered for their jobs, the fact the legislation was amended some years ago to allow people to opt out of the benchmarking awards they are offered. Those who feel they are not entitled to accept, do not want to accept or cannot accept the pay awards that will flow to them from the benchmarking agreement can be at ease. I appreciate that Members are entitled to say that they do not agree with pay awards, but on the next occasion they make such criticisms it would be helpful if they would also make clear that they do not intend to accept them.
Joe O'Toole (Independent)
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I assure the House that nobody, including people in this House and the Lower House whose jobs were thoroughly analysed and scrutinised, will receive more than they deserve from benchmarking. I would like to place these matters on the record as it is helpful for the House to be aware of them.
Derek McDowell (Labour)
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In relation to the intervention of Fine Gael in the Connacht rugby affair, I have never doubted the affinity and deep knowledge of members of that party, particularly Senator Brian Hayes, in relation to garrison games and related issues. The class base of rugby in Ireland is an issue that needs to be discussed, but the fact that the game is becoming more popular in Connacht is helpful and might help to change its image among the working classes of Dublin and other areas.
Brian Hayes (Fine Gael)
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Tell that to those living in Limerick.
Paschal MooneyJohn Minihan (Progressive Democrats)
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The Senator is a working class hero.
Ulick BurkeDerek McDowell (Labour)
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One will travel far and wide before finding a Christian Brothers school where rugby is played. That is the bottom line.
I was interested to see the coverage in recent days of the Kyoto Protocol, which is about to enter into force following its ratification by the Russian Federation. It seems to have suddenly struck the Government that this is a very serious issue that could have serious implications for our economy and the fiscal position of the country in years to come due to the potential for serious fines if we fail to meet our international obligations. However, it has been clear for some time now that as matters stand, we have no chance at all of meeting our international obligations. This is a train which is coming down the tracks towards us at great speed.
It is remarkable that Ministers seem to have only now become aware of it because the Departments of Finance and Enterprise, Trade and Employment have been aware for some time now of what is approaching and have done their level best to ensure at least one measure – to which, in theory, the Government is committed, namely, the introduction of carbon energy taxes – goes no further. This is the sort of matter the Seanad could usefully debate because it will be around for the next two or three years but nonetheless requires urgent measures from the Government. It also requires action from society in general, for example, from industry and those who provide energy. I ask that provision be made for a debate on the issue.
Terry Leyden (Fianna Fail)
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The Seanad and I express our deepest sympathy to President George W. Bush of the United States of America, the National Aeronautics and Space Administration and, especially, the families and loved ones of the seven astronauts on board the shuttle, Columbia, who perished on Saturday, 1 February. The seven astronauts who perished were commander Rick Husband; pilot William McCool; payload commander Michael Anderson; Kaplana Chawla from India; Ilan Ramon from Israel; Dr. David Brown, navy captain pilot; and surgeon Laurel Clark. We wish to convey through the acting American ambassador in Dublin our deepest and heartfelt sadness at this major tragedy for NASA and the USA. We all share in our expression of sympathy to the families involved.
Fergal Browne (Fine Gael)
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Will the Leader ask the Minister for Education and Science to come before the House as a matter of urgency to discuss the review of the education network prepared by the Centre of Management and Organisation Development which recommends the closure of nine part-time education centres and three full-time centres? This will have a massive effect on some 3,900 schools, both primary and post-primary, and is certainly a retrograde step. It is a further example of severe cutbacks in education by the Government. Carlow in my constituency will have no part-time education centre and Kildare education centre will be closed while the Kilkenny centre will no longer be full time. This will have a severe effect on the south east.
Mary Henry (Independent)
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The Arts Council's five year plan was accepted by the Government but at the end of the year its funding was cut dramatically with the result that now there is a large shortfall in the money it can offer to performing companies. Will the Leader ask the Minister for Arts, Sport and Tourism to come into the House to discuss the matter? In various areas, the resurgence of festivals and arts programmes has been extremely important for tourism, not just the local population. We need to address this issue before we enter the summer tourist season when the really serious effects of companies' not giving performances will be felt.
Joe McHugh (Fine Gael)
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Although I welcome the announcements about the CLÁR programme, I ask the Leader to invite the Minister for Community, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs, Deputy Ó Cuív, to come into the House for a discussion, as was done last year, because there is a feeling among community groups nationally that there is no transparent mechanism for obtaining funding from the programme. This is quite a worry, especially as it as one of the briefs for which the Government has money to spend. We need transparency. Will the Leader reinvite the Minister for Community, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs, Deputy Ó Cuív, to ask him what mechanism he proposes for the transparent drawing down of funding?
If there is no confidence in the CLÁR programme, it will have a knock-on effect on the INTERREG IIIA programme. The Minister has responsibility for a sum of €9.59 million for priority 3 of that programme but if there is no confidence in the CLÁR draw-down, there will be a deterioration of confidence in the INTERREG IIIA programme. Will the Leader use her influence to bring the Minister to the House to discuss the matter?
John Minihan (Progressive Democrats)
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I join previous speakers in congratulating the IRFU on its decision. I also congratulate Members on the Government side of the House for the clarity and sense of depth they brought to the debate on the issue last week which, I hope, brought about that decision.
With regard to mutterings from Montenotte, I rather think they came from Mayfield – my address is Montenotte, about which let us be quite clear.
John Minihan (Progressive Democrats)
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Will the Leader consider having a debate on planning, a matter we raised on a number of occasions in the last session? Many Senators and I share the belief that we should have such a debate.
David Norris (Independent)
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I support Senator Minihan in his request for a debate on planning, particularly in relation to lap-dancing clubs and bars. It is a serious problem which is not at all funny. There is gross exploitation of women. I wonder what kinds of middle-class idiotic judges are handing out these permissions for areas in which they do not live. On O'Connell Street there are supermarkets licensed to sell trays of beer to louts at all hours of the day and night. This is a serious issue which we should debate in the House.
Will the Leader confirm that it is her intention to have statements on Iraq on Thursday? If that is the case, I welcome it. Last week we referred to the "Marian Finucane Show" radio programme in the context of RTÉ's extraordinary attitudes. A statement on "Today with Pat Kenny" that a shelter in Baghdad was attacked by a "barrack-buster" bomb and that "some civilians were injured" went totally unchallenged. In fact, 400 civilians were killed. This morning there was an extraordinarily aggressive interview with Deputy Sargent on "Morning Ireland" which put any interview with the IRA or Sinn Féin in a mealy-mouthed context. Will the Leader inquire as to whether pressure has been applied on the Government by the United States or any of its agencies and if this is being passed on by the Government to RTÉ in order that we know of this in advance of the debate?
Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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Will the Leader arrange a debate with the Minister for Communications, Marine and Natural Resources on the shortages of electricity supply? I understand that last week we were within hours of a complete blackout. If this was to happen, it would take nine days to restore the country to full power. This is a matter of great urgency and concern on which we should have a debate.
Joanna Tuffy (Labour)
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Will the Leader ask for a debate with the Tánaiste to find out what the Government is doing to ensure we have a competitive workforce? There is no point in just being shocked or disappointed at factory closures. We need investment in skills, education, training and research and development but the opposite is happening through cutbacks in third level education and research and development. It is a wrong move. Job creation is not just about tax measures.
The only State-funded organic agricultural college has today been threatened with closure. That would be a short-sighted decision in a sector which is increasingly important.
Michael Finucane (Fine Gael)
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I wish to raise the breaches of security that led to attacks on aeroplanes at Shannon. The sensitivities of people regarding Shannon as a location for the landing of military aircraft have been known for many years and, therefore, I am amazed that the Government has been so slow to put in place proper security measures at the airport. It does not require a Cabinet decision to decide whether the Army should move in. I am extremely concerned that the way these attacks are portrayed in America may not result in a positive image of Ireland's position on this issue. I hope the Government will move in haste and resolve the security problem at Shannon.
Noel Coonan (Fine Gael)
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In view of the fact that it is the European Year of the Disabled, I request that the Leader address the issue of the disabled person's grant with the relevant Ministers. Part of the problem is that two Ministers, the Minister for the Environment and Local Government, who administers the scheme, and the Minister for Health and Children, who determines qualification for it, are involved. As a result of cutbacks in local government funding in north Tipperary, the scheme has been frozen. No applications are being taken and this is sending a message to the old and disabled that they should not live in north Tipperary under the current Government.
Will the Leader engage the Minister for Health and Children in a discussion with people and communities that are providing a tremendous service looking after the mentally disabled? I include in this the St. Anne's Centre, which has made it clear that cutbacks will leave it with no option but to discharge the people in need of care. These individuals will have to be discharged because there is no one to look after them. Unless funding is made available, we will face a serious crisis which will reflect poorly on us as we celebrate the European Year of the Disabled.
Maurice Cummins (Fine Gael)
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Last week I raised the question of security and the lack of resources for the Garda in view of the circumstances in Limerick. I call on the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform to come before the House to offer an explanation. The Government is soft on crime and there is no question that the provision of resources to the Garda has not been forthcoming, despite all the pious words we heard prior to and after the election. In view of the fact that the Army has to be called in to secure Shannon Airport, one wonders about the security implications for other airports.
I support Senator Henry's call for the Minister for Arts, Sport and Tourism to come before the House to explain the savage cuts of, in some instances, over 20%, and 50% in the arts budget in respect of programming grants. It is a disgrace.
Michael Kitt (Fianna Fail)
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I join Senator Tuffy in calling for a debate on the efforts to close down the organic farm in Athenry. Teagasc has many questions to answer on this issue because it is discriminating against Athenry in the same way that the IRFU tried to discriminate against Connacht rugby. I hope we will have the opportunity to discuss that issue and fight for Athenry organic farm, which is the only State-funded college farm.
Paul Coghlan (Fine Gael)
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In view of the serious breaches of security at Shannon Airport, will the Leader tell us how many penalty points Deputy Brennan has incurred as Minister for Transport? On a more serious note, we all support the right to peaceful protest but none of us condones the wanton acts of vandalism that have occurred at the airport. I fully support the remarks of my colleague Senator Finucane in this regard.
Maurice Hayes (Independent)
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I also deplore acts of vandalism and every effort must be made to prevent them. I dissent from the view that this can only be done by an army. I have lived too long with circumstances in which soldiers are asked to do the jobs of policemen when the only thing a soldier has that a policeman does not is a gun. Do people want them to use guns? The police have far better powers at their disposal and as this is a police matter. The Garda Síochána should be given the resources it needs or made to use the resources it possesses. My experience of police forces is that it does not make as much use of its resources as it might. This is a policing matter and it would be profoundly wrong, from a political perspective, to turn it into a military one.
Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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Senator Brian Hayes, the leader of Fine Gael and of the Opposition, raised the matter of the Brennan report and the need to invite the Minister for Health and Children and the Minister for Finance to discuss it in the House. The report has not yet been formally issued, although I am sure the leaks are inspired and correct. That is usually the case. Senator O'Toole speaks as one who appears to have prior knowledge of the contents of the report, which may have been discussed at the partnership negotiations. He says there is a need for everyone to be creative, in which regard he is correct. We must put aside our in-built notions of what has sufficed for 30 years, but may no longer do so, particularly in the realm of health boards and other institutional matters.
Senator O'Toole also referred to the need for a debate on partnership and said that if any one of us does not want the money, we should say so and forgo it. There is legislation which permits one to refuse the money one has been granted. I have not yet met anyone as noble as that, but perhaps I will do so before the end of the day.
I do not agree with what Senator McDowell said about rugby. He was very dismissive of the game, which is played by 45 second level schools of all types in Connacht. It is played in vocational schools, community schools, comprehensive schools and secondary schools and the young people involved aspire to represent their province. It is not good enough to dismiss them in the manner used by Senator McDowell.
Derek McDowell (Labour)
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I welcome the fact that the base is being broadened to combat the privilege which has always been part of the game.
Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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The base is being broadened, but the Senator spoke in very pejorative terms about garrisons etc.
John Dardis (Progressive Democrats)
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The Senator should try to get back on side.
Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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What an apt remark. Senator McDowell also spoke of the need for a debate on the environment and I look forward to hearing him speak tomorrow.
Derek McDowell (Labour)
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I am asking for a debate on Kyoto, not one which deals with waste management.
Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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I realise that, but the matter can be raised as a prologue to the main debate.
Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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We will get to Kyoto, but given that the Minister will be here, the Senator should address his comments to him.
I formally second Senator Leyden's motion to convey our sympathies to the American ambassador on the shuttle disaster. Senator Browne raised the matter of teachers' centres and asked for a debate to be attended by the Minister. I do not know if the closures are a fact or a proposal, but the centres play a very important role in the lives of the schools in their catchment areas. I hope that what the Senator has described will not come to pass.
Senator Henry referred to the five year arts plan and requested that the Minister for Arts, Sport and Tourism come before the House. I agree with her in this regard. One wonders if there should not be a long-term debate on these matters and, in particular, on the question of funding. When money is abundant, it is spent, and when it is not, many of the groups involved in the arts must suspend their operations and are unable to continue their work. It means many arts groups are unable to continue their work.
Senator Minihan spoke up for Montenotte as distinct from Mayfield. He also requested a debate on planning. The Minister for the Environment and Local Government, Deputy Cullen, will attend the House tomorrow to debate the Second Stage of the Protection of the Environment Bill. However, I will seek to arrange an additional debate on planning and the Kyoto Protocol.
Paul Coghlan (Fine Gael)
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No doubt the Leader leaves that to her constituency colleague in the other House.
Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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We are not allowed to talk about him.
Paul Coghlan (Fine Gael)
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The Leader means she is content to let the hare sit.
Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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As he gets very upset if anybody says anything, it is best to say nothing. Senator Norris was also annoyed at what he considered to be the aggressive tone adopted by Cathal Mac Coille in his interview with Deputy Sargent on "Morning Ireland". We all agree that Cathal Mac Coille is a distinguished journalist. He was seeking a "Yes" or "No" answer from Deputy Sargent but the Deputy would not respond.
Senator Paddy Burke asked the Minister for the Environment and Local Government to attend the House and explain what the Government was doing to ensure there would be no electricity blackout arising from insufficient generating capacity. It would be an interesting matter to raise on the Adjournment.
Senator Tuffy asked the Tánaiste and Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment to attend the House to explain what was being done to ensure the workforce remained competitive. The Minister will attend the House tomorrow to debate the Second Stage of the Industrial Development (Science Foundation Ireland) Bill. The Senator referred to the attempts to close the organic farm at Athenry, which matter is under the remit of the Department of Agriculture and Food.
Senator Finucane referred to the dilatory approach by the Government to security at Shannon Airport and the image it portrays in the United States. There are two separate issues. Security at Shannon Airport is one while the image portrayed in the United States is caught up in the debate on Iraq. I agree with the Senator's call for increased security at the airport. I understand the three relevant Ministers met this morning to consider how best to proceed.
Senator Coonan pointed out that funding for the disabled person's grants scheme in north Tipperary had been frozen. He requested the Minister for Health and Children and the Minister for the Environment and Local Government who are jointly responsible for the scheme to attend the House to debate the issue. It might be a relevant matter to raise on the Adjournment. We will also seek the attendance of the Ministers.
Senator Cummins expressed concern about the security situation in Limerick and the lack of resources for the Garda Síochána and requested the attendance of the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform to debate the issue. The Minister is due to attend the House later today to debate Report Stage of the Immigration Bill. I will arrange for him or a Minister of State to attend an open debate on justice matters which, I hope, will also include a questions and answers session. Senator Cummins also requested the Minister for Arts, Sport and Tourism to attend the House to debate what was happening to the arts.
Joe O'Toole (Independent)
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Let me make a point of order, a Chathaoirligh, although I do not wish to be misunderstood. The Leader has just seconded a proposal by Senator Leyden who listed the names of the unfortunate astronauts who were killed. We must be careful about setting a precedent. It would be very easy for Senator Norris, for example, to read the names of the 400 people killed in Baghdad. While Senator Leyden's action may be well intentioned, it is inappropriate and could set a precedent which could go out of control. If Members wish to convey their views, they should do so. However, there are very strict rules in the House regarding how we deal with matters in order to stop Members from standing up every day with a different item of this sort. I ask that the matter not be put to the House on the Order of Business.
Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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I thank Senator O'Toole for his advice and, on reflection, agree with him. Perhaps the matter could be brought to the Committee on Procedure and Privileges.
Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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That will not be necessary. We have a Standing Order regarding expressions of sympathy.
Order of Business agreed to.