Seanad debates
Wednesday, 29 January 2003
Development of Rugby: Motion.
2:30 pm
Brian Hayes (Fine Gael)
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I move:
That Seanad Éireann calls on the Minister for Arts, Sport and Tourism to seek an immediate meeting with the IRFU in order to discuss the future development of rugby and to explore avenues which will guarantee the continuation of professional football in Connacht.
I am aware that a similar motion has been placed on the Order Paper by Fianna Fáil Members. There is a degree of support from all parties for this matter and it is important that we debate it in the House. Last week more than 2,500 people attended a public demonstration in Dublin. There are those in the House who believe it means nothing, is a matter of no importance and should not be debated. I disagree. Substantial numbers came to the capital city to demonstrate on an issue important to them and the people they represent in their region. If that cannot be debated, articulated and ventilated in this or the other House, it is a travesty of democracy. I contend that the motion before the House in the names of my colleagues and supported by others on all sides of the House is in order, that it is right that we should reflect the views of those who took to the streets of Dublin for that protest, and that we ensure the debate is monitored in the House.
This is an issue of public concern. The State, through the Department of Arts, Sport and Tourism, gives public funding to the Irish Rugby Football Union. It is only right and proper that it be monitored to ensure the public receives value for money and also that there is a level of responsibility within the IRFU as to how that money is allocated. Latest reports suggest the Government is considering the development of a national stadium with the IRFU and the Football Association of Ireland. It is, therefore, appropriate at this stage to put these questions to the IRFU through the Government, which will respond to the debate in due course.
It is right, as we ventilate public anger on this issue in the debate, that we remember that rugby football and its development is important to the country. The IRFU has probably done more than many organisations on a 32 county, four province basis to ensure all strands of opinion on the island are adequately reflected. That is one of the great strengths of rugby in this country. It is a 32 county game, which is a proud tradition. It reflects all four provinces. That is the reason it is unacceptable that professional rugby in Connacht would be discarded, jettisoned and put to one side and the reason we are debating this matter and using this opportunity to send a strong message to the IRFU before a final decision is taken on the matter.
I must declare an interest. For my education I was sent west to Garbally College, Ballinasloe. I have the unique distinction of having a Connacht branch junior cup medal, not as a player but as a substitute for the final. The management took the correct decision to ensure I would not get near the pitch for the semi-final and final. I remember the importance of my school to Connacht rugby and the development of the game within the province.
It is important that we look on this issue as one that affects rugby throughout the country. I know rugby supporters throughout Ireland have given full support to the Connacht branch and the position it and the supporters of Connacht rugby within the province have taken. This is an issue, of which the bureaucrats and bigwigs who manage rugby in this country will have to take cognisance and remember before a final decision is taken.
It has been suggested that this is a matter of money and that the IRFU must engage in a cost-cutting exercise over the next two years to ensure its accounts are brought back to a healthy financial position. While that is a matter for the union and not the House, it would be wrong for the union to think it can put Connacht rugby to one side. Its budget – about €1.8 million – represents a small fraction of the overall budget and is puny compared with the amounts given to the other three provinces, Munster, Leinster and Ulster. I understand that, on average, they receive about €3.8 million each from the union. The level of financial strain Connacht imposes on the union cannot be compared with other provinces.
The professionalisation of rugby has helped the game, especially in Connacht because, for the first time, we see regular interprovincials and European tournament games on television. The advancement of rugby on TG4 has been of great benefit to the sport and those who believe in its promotion. This is an issue on which politicians should be able to comment given that substantial sums are invested in TG4 to prop it up. We have a right to make our views known. A key part of that programming is the Connacht, Leinster, Munster and Ulster games seen regularly on television. One cannot simply disengage one of the four provinces at the stroke of a pen because one is involved in a cost-cutting exercise. One cannot have a Connacht branch without a Connacht team. That is the position the vast majority of rugby supporters throughout the country hold.
Some years ago when the game went professional the Connacht branch, with other branches, reached an agreement with the IRFU at senior management level that it would meet a number of standards required in the professional era. A regular ten to 12 players on the Connacht team are home grown and do not come from outside the province. That is a startling statistic when compared with the other provinces, many of which have a greater dependency on players from outside. Many of the Connacht players have come up through the system. A huge benefit of professionalisation has been the significant investment in youth rugby and a number of those players have come through to senior level. I understand ten of the 40 players on the youth squad come from Connacht. In my day, no more than six or seven schools were involved in Connacht rugby, whereas 12 competed at senior cup level last year. That is a major advance.
The IRFU has often said not enough people attend Connacht matches. Per head of population, a much greater number of people attend matches involving Connacht than attend matches involving the three other provinces. European Cup matches on Friday evenings at Donnybrook have been particularly successful, with 6,000 to 7,000 spectators coming to see Leinster play. On equivalence, this should mean that approximately 2,000 people should attend Connacht matches. However, between 3,000 and 4,000 regularly attend games involving the province. On a per head of population basis, Connacht has managed to play its part.
If the Irish Rugby Football Union makes this decision against the wisdom of people who love the game throughout the country, against the wisdom of people in Connacht and against sports fans everywhere, it will signal the end of that organisation and the end of rugby in this country. That is why the unanimous position taken on all sides of the House will send a strong signal to the Government to intervene and ensure the public's view is respected and the right decision is reached.
Ulick Burke (Fine Gael)
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I second the motion. I am glad the House is showing cross-party interest in this subject. I sternly disagree with the people who rubbished this motion earlier today. The IRFU is a national organisation and is responsible for fostering games on a 32 county basis. While I am conscious that all sporting organisations are suspicious when politicians involve themselves in debates concerning the ordering of their work, in this instance we are asking the Minister to meet the IRFU and discuss its proposals in light of the fact that the Government is contributing to all sports, including rugby, at national level. As a result, it must take a more than passing interest in how these funds are utilised for the benefit of the greatest numbers who want to participate in whatever sport they wish.
I am firmly convinced that this is not a question of money. If that was the case, there would be simple way for the IRFU to resolve the difficulties in which it believes itself to be. The cutbacks could be made across the board at national level. Why is it singling out the weakest link by pointing to Connacht? People in the west are used to this type of behaviour. It is a regrettable decision on the part of a national organisation that has benefited from Connacht rugby to an enormous degree throughout the years.
In proposing the motion, Senator Brian Hayes declared his interest in that he won a Connacht junior cup medal playing with Garbally. That school has contributed several international players, most recently Noel Mannion and previously Ray McLoughlin, Dick Roche—
Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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Not the current Minister of State, Deputy Roche.
Ulick Burke (Fine Gael)
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—and Ciaran Fitzgerald, who captained Ireland. They all came up through the ranks and represented Connacht. If this IRFU proposal goes through, it will end the aspirations of many young people now involved at youth and school level who want, first and foremost, to represent their province and later their country. That parallels the aspiration of people who play Gaelic football or hurling to represent their county. If any other organisation was to cut off participation for any of those counties' involvement in provincial or All-Ireland championships, there would rightly be uproar.
It was significant that so many people from Connacht – including many players – and other areas assembled last week to request the IRFU to think again. Deputy Glennon, a former Member of this House and a former international rugby player, gave welcome support to the professional players in Connacht.
If the IRFU thinks Connacht rugby is the albatross around its neck, it should consider the figures. It took some €1.8 million to run Connacht rugby last year. That compares to €3.4 million for Leinster and €3.8 million for Munster in the same period. Connacht is not the cause of any financial difficulties in which the IRFU might find itself.
There is concrete evidence of success from the expenditure of that money. Connacht has been designated as a development province. From 2000 to 2003 the number of schools in Connacht participating in rugby at any level has increased from seven to 43. The number of under-21, provincial and international players has increased by 50% in the same years. Some 31 Connacht players have been involved in youth internationals in the past three years. That has increased from a figure of perhaps five or six in previous years. Young people aspire to participation at that level.
The number of clubs that are providing facilities has grown over the years. These take many young people away from other distractions. If that avenue is denied to youngsters in Connacht, the efforts and endeavours of recent years will have been for naught.
The small parish of Monivea represents a cathedral in the desert. The people who live there support hurling, Gaelic football and soccer as well as rugby. That is what participation in sport should be about. I ask the Minister to take immediate steps to convince the IRFU to allow professional rugby to continue in Connacht, otherwise we will once again be presented with the concept of "to hell or to Connacht". This is not acceptable. Commentators, players and the people have all indicated their support for retention.
Kieran Phelan (Fianna Fail)
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I support the motion tabled by the Fine Gael group. Rugby in this country has come on by leaps and bounds in recent years. We have progressed from a stage where we were becoming the whipping boys of the Five Nations Championship, as it was then, to being more than able to hold our own against the French and English and even beating the current world champions, Australia, only a few months ago.
This progress has been due to a number of factors. Through the development of youth, the introduction of the professional game, improved organisational standards and a more professional approach to the administration of the sport in general, we have converted rugby in Ireland from an international laughing stock to the envy of a number of our fellow nations. In this regard the IRFU deserves to be praised. However, for all its previous foresight it appears it has developed short-sightedness in recent weeks. I have no doubt that curtailing the professional game in Connacht would set the game in this country into reverse.
We have all been engaged by the progress of our four provincial sides in the various international competitions which are now such an important part of the game. Less than two weeks ago the country was gripped as Munster achieved what seemed like an impossible result by reaching the quarter finals of the European Cup following the team's titanic performance against Gloucester. How many more such days can we look forward to if we cut off one of the national game's provincial limbs? While it is true Connacht has not enjoyed the same level of success as the other three provinces and does not seem likely to do so in the near future, by ending the professional game in the province we are giving up on the very hope this could happen one day.
Being a supporter is always about hope. Only one team can win any given championship. Its supporters can celebrate, but for the others all that remains is to dream of what might have been. If the professional game goes in Connacht, the province's supporters will be deprived of this dream and anything approaching a level playing field. In a sense, the goalposts will have been moved for Connacht rugby.
What would become of rugby in the province if the proposal was accepted? The idea is to concentrate on the development side. Why would young players in the province be encouraged to engage in a sport when they were being clearly regarded as second class citizens in comparison with their counterparts in Leinster, Munster and Ulster? Would they continue to play knowing that they would have to move to another province or even another country if they wanted to progress to a higher, professional standard of play? Would former Irish international greats such as Ray McLoughlin and Ciaran Fitzgerald, or even Colm Rigney from my county, have come through such a system if it had been in place in their day?
Ultimately, the fragile state of rugby in Connacht would be shattered and the recent progress achieved by the province completely undermined. Only a short time ago there were seven clubs playing the game in the province. As a direct result of the funding and development of the game, that total now stands at 40. How long will that figure be sustained if the game is being undermined by the very body responsible for its development? We will see a drain of talent from the province with English clubs and the other provinces cherry picking the best youngsters at an early age and developing them under their own systems. Connacht will no more be able to compete with these sides than an Eircom League side can compete with the likes of Liverpool and Manchester United.
The IRFU has been considering this idea on the basis that it cannot maintain expenditure at current levels. It views Connacht as the easiest cut it can make. What needs to be asked is whether such drastic action needs to be taken and if this is a case of the IRFU discriminating against Connacht. Some facts need to be considered when considering these questions. Despite the need for urgent cuts, the IRFU has already booked 88 rooms in the Westin Excelsior Hotel in Rome for the upcoming Six Nations Championship match against Italy. Given that the players and coaching staff will take up only a small portion of those rooms, the question needs to be asked as to the reason the IRFU is bringing so many officials to the game, especially when it is supposed to be trying to cut costs
Kieran Phelan (Fianna Fail)
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This is not the first example of such excessive spending by the IRFU. It appears such a block booking is normal for the association whenever the national side plays abroad.
Another point which suggests possible discrimination against Connacht is the fact that none of the other provinces has been asked to make a presentation on cost cutting. Surely each of the other provinces would be able to tighten its belt to some extent in an effort to save the professional game in Connacht.
The IRFU estimates it will run up a loss of €7 million this year, whereas cutting the cost of the professional game in Connacht would only amount to an estimated saving of €2 million. What is the sense in this? Surely a wider view of the problem needs to be taken by the IRFU. Surely it should not cut off its nose to spite its face. I urge the Minister to bring all his influence to bear with the IRFU and, if necessary, withhold grants from the association if it is unwilling to adopt another approach to this matter.
The professional game in Connacht is essential for the good of the game, not only in the province but also throughout the country. We cannot neglect one area for the sake of taking the easy option. The IRFU needs to think of another way of handling its problems and avoid critically injuring the game in Connacht. It should be remembered that once one amputates a limb, one cannot replace it.
Frank Feighan (Fine Gael)
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In the early 1980s when I was playing Gaelic football and soccer with enthusiasm, a rugby club called East Connacht was founded in Carrick-on-Shannon. The club generated considerable interest in north Roscommon, south Sligo and Leitrim and many of my friends were involved in it. The highlight of the year was the game against Loughrea or Creggs which the team invariably lost.
We used to enjoy our trips to Dublin. At the time Ireland was doing very well and won the triple crown. Connacht rugby, however, was not taken seriously. When asked, for example, in Old Wesley rugby ground for which team we played, no one had heard of East Connacht. Nevertheless, we enjoyed following Ireland and participating in the sport. This was during a time of virtually no under age rugby or coaching when Connacht rugby was dismissed. In the past 15 years there has been a renaissance with professionals finally coming into the game and clubs such as Buccaneers, Creggs, Monaveigh and Galwegians all contesting. At last Connacht rugby has come of age.
With the IRFU facing a major budget deficit of €4 million this year and as much as €7 million next year, it is easy to float the idea of reducing the professional playing pool from 120 players to 90. One does not have to be a genius to understand the proposal targets Connacht players and Connacht rugby. This is unfair given that many players want to play for the province and gain access to the all-Ireland team by doing so. I wonder if the proposal is related to Connacht becoming a threat to the old school of rugby. We are being told to tighten to our belts, which we have heard before, and that €2 million can be saved by getting rid of Connacht rugby. I have been impressed with all aspects of Connacht rugby, particularly the success it has enjoyed. If Irish rugby is to continue, it must include an input from Connacht.
Journalists such as Brendan Fanning argue that Connacht has done precious little to save itself. The tone of his recent article was very unsympathetic to Connacht's cause and the amount of work done. Are the people concerned really interested in rugby in an all-Ireland sense? George Hook said it was not a Cromwellian attack on Connacht but if one is surrounded by 27 counties which believe they will be all right while the five counties in Connacht must do without, one would rightly think it is an attack on the west.
My interest lies in the proliferation of rugby clubs in Connacht and ensuring they are vibrant and that people in my area can participate in the game, unlike what happened 20 years ago. If one travelled to Dublin then and was asked where one was from, one would not be taken seriously. However, we are being taken seriously now but need funding and support from everybody.
I am delighted there is cross-party support for the motion. Rugby, Gaelic football and soccer are played in Creggs, on the Galway border with my county, and such clubs have been part of the renaissance in the west. I do not want them to be forgotten. I am delighted there is nationwide support for the petition, on which there are 3,500 signatures. I am also delighted with the support for the motion, which is deserved.
John Dardis (Progressive Democrats)
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I am extremely uncomfortable about the motion. While I support it because it is important, I have grave difficulties about the propriety of the Houses of the Oireachtas discussing the affairs of the Irish Rugby Football Union other than in circumstances where State funding is involved. I have always stuck to the belief, even when there were difficulties with apartheid in South Africa, that sport and politics should not mix. That might be a counsel of perfection but, to the degree that it is possible, that should be the case. That is the reason I was pleased that the other motion on the Order Paper acknowledged the responsibility for the administration and development of the game of rugby rested with the IRFU. That was an important addition to that motion and, while it is not before the House, it is an important statement that should be on the record.
I have been involved in rugby football since I was a teenager. I have played and refereed the game at a high level. I refereed games in the Sportsgrounds in Galway on wet days and at Galwegians RFC at a time very few people and virtually no politicians had an interest in the future of rugby football or its welfare in Connacht. It was left to a few people such as Billy Glynn, Malcolm Little, Paddy Beattie and Senator O'Rourke's late husband to carry the flag. This issue must be put in context, even though I support the motion.
The IRFU has done a remarkable job developing the game since it turned professional. It is recognised as a model by other unions. By comparison, the debacle in Wales is at the other end of the scale. One of the reasons for the debacle and the significant debt of the Welsh union, which has resulted in performances on the field not being what they should be, is that there are too many senior clubs which will not agree among themselves as to what they should they do. They should reduce the number of clubs.
While the Irish provinces have become clubs in the professional era competing in the Heineken European Cup and the Parker Pen European Shield, identifying with one's province is still important and we have a tradition that goes back 128 years. A total of 13,000 adults are playing rugby football in Ireland, 7% of them in Connacht, which receives 19% of funding from the union, apart from the administrative funding budget, of which the province gets 26%. However, the administrative structure is the same irrespective of the size of the province. The cost of the professional teams this year will be €19.9 million while the union's income will be €35 million. More than half of the money is going into the professional game which is as it should be.
We are able to compete at international level. We can hold our heads up high because we can beat the Australians and the English at Lansdowne Road but we are able to do so on the basis of the strength of the provinces. Tom McGurk made an important point in an article he wrote in The Sunday Business Post, which is inherent in the attitude of all the provinces. He stated:
In the world of professional rugby where money and transfer fees know no frontiers, Munster remains rooted in the sacred old amateur tradition of playing for the place you come from. It is the parish against the world as the expensive international superstars of Gloucester discovered last week, the furious pride that comes with performing for your family and your friends in front of your neighbours.
That is central to what Irish rugby is and long may it remain so. That is the reason Connacht must be protected and developed. There are five provincial sides in New Zealand and three in Australia where 46,000 adults play the game. There are three provincial sides in Scotland and we know what happened in Wales given the mess the union is in there having continued with nine senior clubs.
The focus in the debate has been on the control of spending but I have heard nothing about increasing revenue. There must be ways to do so. The commercial possibilities associated with Connacht, Munster, Leinster and Ulster are not being exploited to the extent they should be in terms of merchandising and so on. Perhaps there is a source of revenue in terms of sponsorship and so on.
Senator Phelan made reference to the travelling blazers. I attended the game between Ireland and Italy three years ago. It was the first game we played in the Six Nations Championship. We stayed in a magnificent hotel, the Cavalieri Hilton, which overlooks the Vatican. It was a splendid place but one could not move for blazers. That has a disruptive effect on the team because all the blazers want to tell the players how they should play the game the following day when they accost them in the many hallways of hotels. I doubt that Manchester United bring all the board members and their wives and everybody else when they travel to play a European Cup match. Perhaps the union might examine this issue.
I return to the sense of place and players going out to lay down their lives for their families and neighbours. It comes to this sometimes in Munster and perhaps also in Connacht. That is one of the reasons towns such as Carlow and Naas have developed senior clubs. There is a sense of place that cannot be found in the senior clubs in Dublin and it explains why prominent clubs such as Wanderers have not performed. Galwegians were top of the All-Ireland League Division One. Reference has been made to Ciaran Fitzgerald, a player from that club who has captained Ireland to the triple crown and the Lions. Ray McLoughlin is another who could be credited for modern international forward play.
Tradition counts in general and on the field of play. It is reflected in the performance of the national squad. Not long ago Lansdowne Road was like a morgue on match day. Roy Keane got it right when he said the prawn sandwich brigade was present to an unhealthy extent because they could pay the exorbitant ticket prices. At one time one could not sell a ticket above face value or one would be drummed out of the union. However, nowadays clubs can put them on the market and accept whatever amount they like for them with the prawn sandwich men occupying the ground. That has been reflected in performances on the field. The fact that they did not provide prawn sandwiches carried Munster to victory because they had ordinary folk behind them.
Brendan Ryan (Labour)
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My views on the appropriateness of the motion were made known on the Order of Business, an issue to which I will return. If I thought this was an appropriate place to debate the matter, I would enthusiastically endorse much of what has been said. Perhaps as a coded way of talking about the overall neglect of Connacht and the west generally it has some appropriateness.
I am a great believer in the role of the State in all areas of development and I am considerably sceptical about much of the ideological determination to withdraw the State from many areas of activity. I believe in the role of the State in issues like funding sport and other sorts of voluntary activity. However, in order for that to work successfully one has to be extremely careful not to let a situation develop where the State believes it can tell voluntary groups what they should do in detail with those resources. There has been considerable controversy in recent years about the Arts Council, with some people suggesting it had too much autonomy and that broader issues of policy ought to be determined elsewhere. I am pragmatic enough to know that if one has an attempt to tell a sporting organisation how it should do its business, that will be done by a civil servant, not a Minister. No Minister is going to get involved in that sort of detail, even though he may go through the rituals.
I have reservations about the priorities involved in spending two hours of the time of one House of the Oireachtas debating an issue like this and the idea that political power should be invoked to attempt to influence decisions by a voluntary organisation which has not done anything illegal. The IRFU is doing nothing illegal; this is a matter of its choices and priorities.
Everyone present who is concerned about this has plenty of ways of giving support to Connacht. They do not need to discuss it here. With all due respect to Connacht, the country and the world has bigger problems than the future of professional rugby in Connacht. I say that as an enthusiast for sport and as an active participant when I was able, though I had probably retired from active sport around the time Senator Hayes was born, to judge from his announcement this afternoon. However, every morning the Leader says there are many issues to be debated and that we do not have time to reach them all. There is the possibility of war and how we have drifted into a situation where there is massive traffic in armaments and military personnel through the country under an ad hoc arrangement and without proper debate. People in the third city in the State are living almost in terror about who is in charge of their city. Those are just the current issues but I could go on forever.
This issue is not high enough on my list of priorities to justify the time of the Houses of the Oireachtas being devoted to it. I say that with every respect for those who feel strongly about it, but there are other fora and means for dealing with it. The absence of other Labour Members is probably an eloquent statement of their views of this issue. Though I will not speak for them, this is a waste of the time of the Seanad. It is a suggestion that we cannot think of things that are serious enough to debate or that this matter is more important- –
Ulick Burke (Fine Gael)
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This is outrageous. He is picking up where his colleague left off.
Brian Hayes (Fine Gael)
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My point of order relates to Standing Orders. With respect to the Senator in possession, it is patronising of him to say what he has said about colleagues on this side of the House.
Brian Hayes (Fine Gael)
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The Chair will be aware that according to Standing Orders when a Member speaks he or she speaks to the motion before the House. With all due respect to the colleague in possession, he should deal with the motion as opposed to other matters.
Brendan Ryan (Labour)
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Everyone is getting a bit sensitive. I have said what I have said and will say worse.
Brendan Ryan (Labour)
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I recall one occasion having Senator Moylan, a most difficult Senator to provoke, in a state of agitation because of things I was saying. My comments on this matter are very mild by my standards.
It is trivialising the Seanad to have a motion like this debated here. It suggests we are a side-show to a crisis in one sporting organisation. It is not what we should be doing with our time.
Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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I am delighted to be here for this excellent debate. Any debate benefits from disparate views but not views which try to make us feel we are of such low quality. I affirm the rights of Private Members' time strongly. The party which has the two hours each week is dictated by Standing Orders but since entering the House I have never heard one party dismiss another party's motion in such a perfunctory way. It is regarded as a particular party's business to pick a motion and debate it. The Senator and his party have put down motions and amendments to Bills with which I profoundly disagreed or which I found trivial and outrageous. However, that is my opinion.
A Senator has every right to put down a motion in Private Members' time and seek debate on it. Members then speak for or against the motion; that is the kernel of debate. By patronising Fine Gael and Fianna Fáil, which put down a similar motion, Senator Ryan has exceeded his rights as an individual. He may complain about the motion or oppose our point of view but he cannot say a motion is trivial or nonsense in the way he did.
Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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We know there are many other issues to deal with, but we would be foolish to think that with one sweep our voices could settle all those issues overnight. We would be foolish to think Saddam Hussein is trembling in his bunker or President Bush is holding his wife's hand because they are terrified of Seanad Éireann. That is ridiculous. It is necessary that we discuss matters of provincial, national and international concern and we are debating an issue here of provincial and national importance.
Before addressing the mistake the IRFU is making I declare my own interest. For 18 years my late husband was secretary of Athlone Rugby Club. He then served as president for two years and was a delegate to the Connacht branch for many years. I went on the march and a rather foolish reporter asked Senator Feeney and me what either of us would know about rugby. The individual in question took on the wrong women. I understand Senator Feeney's late husband played for Sligo. We regard the time we spent, albeit with our spouses, as time well spent.
Athlone has now developed into Buccaneers, a joint Ballinasloe and Athlone rugby club which is doing fine. Senator Ryan said we can have no interest because this matter has nothing to do with the body politic and Senator Dardis made a very fine point on that. Rugby receives grants and last year the Buccaneers premises and grounds received up to €500,000 in Government aid to build a new clubhouse and develop the grounds.
There is much debate at present about the IRFU and its plans for a national stadium in the future. I do not doubt that the Government will be called on to provide handsome sums of taxpayers' money to this project. We should do the same for all sports. The IRFU proposal for Connacht is disgraceful and is an abandonment of the game. The idea that the professional team would be taken away is a bad headline for young people to read. As Senator Ulick Burke said, many second level schools in Connacht have developed the game.
The IRFU will say that Connacht has been designated as a development province for rugby. That will be fine until the game is developed and there is no professional side to represent the province. It is quite a dangerous tactic on the part of the IRFU. I wrote to the president of the IRFU, Mr. Don Crowley, who is from Galway. I believe it is part of the plot that they will pursue this proposal while he is in office and if it gets past him, the game will be over.
We marched to the headquarters of the IRFU last Thursday. I was privileged to speak at the meeting along with Deputy Kenny and Bobby Molloy, a former Deputy and Minister. I was delighted to put forward our point of view. We have four provinces – four green fields – in this country and who is to say that one province is to be wiped away at the behest of a group of people sitting in a privileged street in the centre of Dublin? What an elitist decision for the IRFU to make and what a note of preferment has been introduced to its debates. It wants to impose that decision on the poor people of Connacht. However, they are no longer poor and are no longer going to sit down and take it. Cromwell told us 400 years ago to go to hell or to Connacht and we went because there was nowhere else to go. The people of Connacht want to keep their game of rugby at the highest level. They have shown that they can do it. They have shown spunk and determination.
The meeting of the executive of the IRFU will take place on 6 February and the vote will take place then. I ask Senators to imagine a vote that says: "We are going to remove from Connacht the high level of professionalism which has been achieved." I can imagine what would happen if this was proposed in any other sport or club in Ireland. The Acting Chairman wants me to stop talking and I always obey the Chair.
I am glad to assert that any grouping in this House which has Private Members' time granted to it has the right to put forward a motion. It is quite incorrect to see matters otherwise. I was amazed by Senator Ryan's attitude to other people's time; it is not his time. We are expected to fall in with the Senator whenever he wishes to put forward a motion.
Maurice Cummins (Fine Gael)
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I am sure that the one Labour Deputy in Connacht would not think this is a trivial matter—
Maurice Cummins (Fine Gael)
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—and would certainly support the motion that has been put before the House.
Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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The Deputy in question is in Iraq.
Maurice Cummins (Fine Gael)
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He would want to look after himself while he is there.
I live in a city which has one senior club and one junior club – Waterpark and Waterford City – and which would not be classified as a major centre of rugby excellence. The clubs that are involved in playing and developing the game are doing a tremendous job. They are not ostracised, but rather encouraged by the Munster branch in developing the game in a city like Waterford.
The IRFU should adopt similar tactics in regard to Connacht. When one hears that the number of clubs in Connacht has risen from five to 43 or 45, or whatever is the correct figure—
Maurice Cummins (Fine Gael)
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Yes. The IRFU and the Connacht branch should be complimented for that. The proposal is a deterrent and certainly not an encouragement for those schools in the Connacht region. Anybody who is any good at schools level aspires to represent their province at inter-provincial level. I cannot understand why the IRFU would adopt this policy because of cost cutting. It would be similar to the GAA saying that because there is only one excellent hurling team, Galway, in Connacht, that the province will be amalgamated with another province for the Railway Cup or even debarred from competing for the cup.
I was one of what are referred to as "blazers", because I served as president of the Schoolboys' Football Association of Ireland and of the FAI youth committee for a number of years. Our policy regarding "blazers" was that only three would travel with the teams because that was all we could afford. When one hears of 66 rooms being reserved, the mind boggles and the cost-cutting measures should be directed at situations such as that.
On radio recently I heard the president or secretary of the Connacht association speak passionately about the clubs in his province and the need for professional rugby there. Participation in the Parker Pen competition has given exposure to Irish rugby in Wales, England and France. The Connacht team have been tremendous ambassadors for the country in all their visits abroad. We all shared in the success of Munster rugby, and, indeed, the success of Ulster rugby as Ulster is the only Irish team to have won the competition to date. Please God we will share in the further successes of either Munster or Leinster in this year's competition.
I support the motion. Connacht rugby should be encouraged and the professional aspect should be continued. I urge the IRFU to direct its cost-cutting efforts at aspects other than getting rid of professional rugby in Connacht. It would be a retrograde step for Connacht, for the IRFU and for Irish rugby.
Terry Leyden (Fianna Fail)
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I wish to share my time with Senator Minihan. I support the motion. I commend the Fine Gael group in the Seanad for putting down the motion and the Leader and my group for putting down a motion in parallel which agrees fully with their sentiments.
I was shocked, to say the least, that the IRFU proposes to exclude Connacht. I do not believe it will become a reality. It is totally unacceptable that the IRFU should turn its back on a province like Connacht in an era when rugby is expanding and developing in the province. I come from an area close to the Creggs rugby ground which has provided tremendous opportunities for people in the Creggs area. Many people in the Roscommon town area play in Creggs and I have a link through that.
We should be proud that the IRFU is a 32-county organisation, but it will no longer be a 32-county organisation if the IRFU excludes Connacht. Like the Leader of the Seanad and others, I went on the march last week. I was delighted to take part in that march which indicated the depth of opposition to the proposal. Deputy Jim Glennon also participated. Although he represents a Dublin constituency, he felt the injustice of the proposal strongly enough to come along.
The headquarters of the organisation are in Lansdowne Road and if the IRFU is short of funds, I would respectfully suggest that it dispose of that property and use the grounds in Lansdowne Road for office accommodation. It seems a reasonable point of view.
I heard the suggestion that we in Connacht form 7% of the total population. I do not know to which population they referred – I presume it was the rugby population. At any rate, they spoke of a 93:7 split. That means that rural areas would be excluded from all policies. If the Government pursued that type of policy, where would we be today? We would not have schools or Garda stations.
Terry Leyden (Fianna Fail)
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There is massive investment in the west. It is important that we retain our professional team. It does give great leadership to young people and something to which to aspire. One should bear in mind that there are 3,075 school rugby players in Connacht – that is a phenomenal number of young players – and there are 43 rugby playing schools in Connacht. Many years ago there were very few rugby playing schools in the west, but now those schools are proud to be playing rugby as well as GAA and soccer. It is a phenomenal change of attitude. Between the ages of 7 and 18, there are 2,734 under age club players in Connacht. That is where expansion and development will come from.
I am delighted that we have been joined by the Minister for Arts, Sport and Tourism, Deputy O'Donoghue. I hope he will meet with the IRFU. I look forward to his response to this debate. With his interest in the game within his own constituency and throughout the country, he will bring some sanity to this issue. It is a form of apartheid for the IRFU to turn its back on a major region. We were flabbergasted to say the least. I am sure the Leas-Chathaoirleach would agree that this is a unacceptable decision.
I want to voice my support and state that I marched last week with a group where there was a massive turnout. I would appeal to the IRFU to ensure that if there are to be cutbacks, they will be made across the board throughout all the provinces. If the IRFU proposes to turn its back on Connacht, it should bear in mind that if there is a vote in this House on funding for the IRFU, I will vote against it. I ask the Minister to take stern action. I ask him to withdraw funding to the IRFU if they decide to renege on the development of rugby in the Connacht region. If the IRFU took such a decision, it would not be representative of the wishes of the Oireachtas.
John Minihan (Progressive Democrats)
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I welcome the Minister to the House. I am glad he is here for this debate. Initially I had not intended to speak on this issue. I felt there were enough people from the west and from Connacht to eloquently outline the issues on the Private Members' motion, but having listened to Senator Ryan I decided I would have to speak and take issue with the points he made.
I do not question the right of Fine Gael to raise any issue it sees fit in Private Members' time.
John Minihan (Progressive Democrats)
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If it wishes to raise it, so be it. I welcome the opportunity to have such a debate. We, as public representatives, have a duty to represent the views of the people who gave us the privilege of sitting in this House. If there is a strong sense of feeling about particular issues, it would be remiss of us not to highlight those issues in this House, if for no other reason than to bring them to the attention of the relevant governing bodies.
I do not propose to interfere in the internal workings of the IRFU and I fully accept that that is not our business, but I will accept the right of any public representative to represent the views of their electorate. If we were to follow Senator Ryan's line of argument, we would be betraying our moral responsibilities as public representatives in not highlighting those issues. Therefore I fundamentally disagree with Senator Ryan's train of thought. If he were here in the House – he has left having given us a diatribe for a few minutes – I would suggest to him that we will note with interest the issues he raises on the Order of Business and in Private Members' time in the future and we will equally judge their suitability.
Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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He has already put forward many dotty matters.
John Minihan (Progressive Democrats)
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I have a fond interest in all sport, be it rugby, Gaelic football, hurling or whatever, and I value its importance to society and to the social development of our young people. The tradition in Ireland, be it in rugby or GAA, of club, parish, town, county, province and country is a tradition that young people aspire and work up to. It is a chain that is clearly established in one's progression as a sportsman. To remove part of that chain would be wrong and would go against the social fabric in Ireland which young people like to work up through. Whereas I do not want to interfere with the workings of the IRFU and believe it must manage its own affairs, it should not interfere with the chain clearly established in Irish life and in sporting circles. In GAA, in rugby or in any sport, people like to aspire to the next level.
We pride ourselves on having an identity, be it of club, town, parish or province. Senator O'Toole is constantly telling us he is a Kerryman, for instance. We in Munster are proud to be Munster people and we are proud to be Cork people when it comes to an all-Ireland final. We do not want this removed.
Joe O'Toole (Independent)
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The Senator is stretching it a little.
John Minihan (Progressive Democrats)
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I will not interfere with the work of Kerry GAA either.
John Minihan (Progressive Democrats)
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The next Munster final will be played in Fota, I understand, but we would be happy to have it back in Páirc Uí Chaoimh if Senator O'Toole wants it there also.
I hope this debate will highlight the strong views held by people in Connacht about the issue. I support the motion, if only in order that the IRFU might see that this matter affects the social fabric of life in Connacht.
John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Fianna Fail)
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I thank Members of the Seanad for providing this opportunity to discuss an issue which has excited the interest and concern of many rugby and general sports enthusiasts, not just in Connacht but also throughout the country. The extent and intensity of the debate, not just in the media but also in sports clubs and at social gatherings in recent weeks, are yet another reminder of how important sport is to Irish people and how deeply it affects us in our daily lives.
The independence and autonomy of the national governing bodies of sport are a fundamental principle of Irish sports policy. Successive Governments have during the years sought to preserve this principle and not interfered in matters that are essentially internal and the business only of the sports organisation, its management and members. Clearly, there can be situations where the interest and intervention of the State are desirable and necessary. Sports organisations are subject to the laws and regulations of the land the same as everyone else and fully accountable, for instance, in the case of any Government funding received.
The question of the IRFU's intention to withdraw its funding from the Connacht professional squad, while essentially an internal matter for the organisation, has caused a great deal of concern and anxiety and is, no doubt, worthy of debate in the Seanad. Developing and sustaining a professional sports set up are most demanding and expensive undertakings for a sports organisation. The changes that had to be managed when professional rugby union became a reality in 1995 were seismic in their impacts. The challenges must have seemed daunting for an organisation which had been based on an amateur ethos and structures for well over a century. Those charged with the administration and development of the game in Ireland had to react quickly and make the changes necessary if Ireland was to survive as a viable rugby nation with a thriving domestic game and the potential to compete realistically with the giants of European and world rugby.
The recent successes of the Irish national team, including the defeat of the world champions, Australia, as well as the outstanding performances of the provincial teams, typified recently by the Boy's Own heroics of Munster against Gloucester and the unbeaten run of Leinster in the European Cup, are examples of what has been achieved by the IRFU in these difficult times. We should also not forget the high quality performances in Europe this year by Connacht. The success of Ireland's rugby teams in international competitions is important to us, not just in sporting terms but also in the attendant boost to our spirits and morale. The enormous contribution that sport makes to the economy is not always fully appreciated in the drama and emotion that usually characterise discussions and media coverage of major sports events in Ireland.
Irish rugby plays no small part in the economic arena. An economic impact study commissioned in 1998-99 showed that four international rugby matches played annually in Ireland created at least a €60 million contribution to the economy. More than half of this figure was export revenue generated by overseas visitors. These figures confirm that, given the increase in the number of international test matches and the growing number of European fixtures, rugby is now a major contributor to tourism and the economy. The public relations and promotion for Ireland as a tourist destination through the international activities of Irish rugby have a lasting value.
However, this success has been bought at a price and meant a huge investment by the IRFU in terms of money, manpower and initiative at all levels of the game in Ireland. The achievement and maintenance of consistently high performance levels in international rugby are built on the early identification and nurturing of talent and the availability of top quality coaching and development in schools and clubs, using top class training and match facilities, with referees of the highest standard available.
Irish rugby plays an important role in delivering a health dividend for the country. Through its club structure it has also delivered significant social benefits in terms of helping to provide our young people with a healthy and enjoyable outlet for their energies. In addition, the skills, relationships and responsibilities intrinsic to rugby and the club structure have had a positive effect on the development of individuals and the development of the community.
The Government, through my Department and the Irish Sports Council, has worked closely with the IRFU in recent years in the development of Irish rugby. Since 1998 grants to the value of €6.8 million have been allocated for the provision of new and enhanced facilities for junior and senior rugby clubs, including funding for the provincial rugby grounds in Connacht and Munster. In total, since 1998 the IRFU has received €11.5 million from the Government in current and capital grants. In the 2001 budget the Government allocated a special fund of over €3 million to be used in the encouragement of greater under age participation in the major field sports, Gaelic football, hurling, soccer and rugby. Since then the Irish Sports Council has been working actively with the governing bodies, including the IRFU, in developing and funding programmes and initiatives aimed at increasing participation and raising standards of performance among young players, including special interventions in areas of social and economic disadvantage. In 2002 the Government, through the Irish Sports Council, contributed over €3.75 million to the IRFU for the development of young players through a wide variety of programmes.
The IRFU has around 214 clubs and 254 schools catering for a total playing population of around 79,000. It fields four professional teams at provincial level, employing directly 120 full-time professional players, as well as a further 38 players under academy bursary contract. In terms of wages alone, this is clearly a heavy financial burden which has to be met from the IRFU's funds, unlike soccer, where the weekly wages of the professional players are paid by the clubs, not the governing body. It is clear that the IRFU is faced with a difficult situation. Rugby in Connacht has expanded and improved greatly in recent years, with a growing number of players involved and an increasing number of schools now playing the game.
The Connacht provincial team has also performed excellently in European competition, spurred on by a large and enthusiastic following from all over the west. A glance at the AIB Division 1 league table will show Galwegians and Buccaneers in fourth and sixth places respectively. This is surely an indication of how well Connacht rugby is doing and must bode well for an even brighter and more successful future. I am confident that the people in the IRFU who will make the decision on the future of professional rugby in Connacht will bear these facts in mind. The IRFU has met the great challenges of the changeover to the professional game with sensitivity, skill and good judgment.
Since my appointment as Minister, I have met the officers of the IRFU on many occasions in relation to all facets of the game of rugby, including the proposal for a new stadium and the bid by Scotland and Ireland to host the finals of the European football championships in 2008. At all times I have been struck by the professional and honourable approach taken by the IRFU in its dealings with the Government. I have no doubt but that in dealing with the current issue it will also bring these qualities into play. Its performance during the bid for the European championship finals was, to say the very least, patriotic.
I hope and trust wisdom and good sense will again prevail in the best interests of Irish sport, the great game of rugby and Connacht. I will meet the IRFU to discuss this important and sensitive issue. However, it would be wholly inappropriate to contemplate the withdrawal of any funding currently being provided for the IRFU through my Department for capital purposes or through the Irish Sports Council for programme purposes in the current sensitive situation. The IRFU is listening attentively to the points of view being expressed by all participants in the debate on the future of professional rugby union in Connacht and will evaluate carefully its options before reaching its decision. It has demonstrated its capacity to act decisively and with foresight to support the game of rugby in Ireland in this turbulent era and it is only right that it should be given the space to make whatever decisions it considers necessary to ensure the continued development of the game in this country.
I am certain the views of Senators will be taken on board by the IRFU and I will be glad to help ensure the outcome of this debate will be brought to the attention of the Irish Sports Council and the IRFU. On my way into the House the Leader inquired about the state of rugby in Kerry. I informed her that some decades ago Ireland was disappointed to have only one player on the international Lions team. There was great disappointment in Kerry at the time because it had only one player on the team also.
Joe O'Toole (Independent)
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When I heard the moral sermonising from these benches today about what might or might not be appropriate to debate this evening, I was reminded of my first year here and meeting somebody who I thought might enter national politics. He informed me that he had decided not to do so because he was putting his family first. It knocks one for six to hear moral certitude of that kind. It took me some time to figure out that to work for one's country or community is also to work for one's family. This idea of only having one issue or priority at any one time is what I call the "parish priest syndrome", namely, if one has to do two jobs in one day then it is a busy day.
My choice would have been to debate the Iraqi crisis this evening, but that does not detract from the validity of the motion before us. It was not from Dublin or Cork that the phrase "gods make their own importance" came. If we do not highlight the importance of issues ourselves, nobody else will. This is an important issue that does not have much to do with sport.
The last occasions on which I marched against the IRFU was in 1970. I recall speaking outside Lansdowne Road that day and saying that if these people turn their backs on the coloureds and blacks of South Africa, it is only a matter of time before they start turning on someone else. It took 30 years, but I was eventually proven right. It is now the turn of Connacht. To paraphrase Cromwell, it is to hell with Connacht as far as the IRFU is concerned at present. I never trusted that organisation. I always had doubts about it and what is happening confirms my feelings.
Joe O'Toole (Independent)
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The Minister touched upon one point I would love him to have developed, namely, that rugby plays an important role and delivers significant social benefits in terms of helping to provide our young people with a healthy and enjoyable outlet. I would not stand here and defend the reduction of a grant towards sports and leisure facilities in any part of Ireland – from inner city Dublin to Tory Island – because there is a social dividend in investing in sport.
This issue not just about representation for Connacht. That is important, but there is also the matter of providing people with an outlet through organised games. That is why the GAA, the IRFU, the FAI and all the smaller sporting groups are important; they provide a way for young people to express themselves in a positive, progressive way, rather than in a negative, damaging way.
This is a hugely important aspect of the debate and must be attached to every discussion about sporting activity. We often hear people interviewed on radio and television saying, "There is nothing for the kids to do around here." That is what this matter is about. We are pulling back further from the part of Ireland in question. Governments have thought it important enough at times to establish a ministry devoted to developing the west and we have passed legislation to develop infrastructure there. This issue has to be placed in that context. We should consider the Connacht rugby team as part of a wider picture.
Taxpayers' money is going to the IRFU. I accept that the IRFU must look after its own business and we should not interfere. However, if the Government is giving money to a national body, it does so with the clear understanding that the money is going to be invested throughout the nation as a whole. The money should not be given to one side of the country and taken away from another. I do not know how we get around this in practice, but it might be better if the Government simply allocated a certain amount of money to each of the four provinces.
There are things we can do and points that we can make. All sorts of suggestions were made to the GAA recently when people felt it was not sharing its assets with the nation. The same could be said of this matter and we should take a strong and clear view on it. It should be particularly important for public representatives from places other than Connacht to speak because this issue concerns everybody. This is about people standing together and making a judgment on what we need to do.
Another issue, which I do not have time to deal with now, is the professionalisation of the game. I have discussed the impact of this with a number of people, including Deputy Glennon. Once a game becomes professional, it must confront issues like industrial relations, career prospects, insurance, family responsibility and a variety of issues that did not previously arise as matters of concern. It changes the whole nature of the game. If people decide to go down that route that is their choice, but there will be fallout. As we have seen, part of that fallout is that there is a lack of money to invest at the lower levels.
For Members, this issue is more about participation than about the position of Connacht in the AIB league or how well it is doing in European competition. These are important issues, but what we want to do is cultivate and develop that sense of place. There is no argument that people with a sense of place and of commitment to a place are least likely to commit damage to that place or its people. That is the reality and representing one's club, town, village, county, province or country is what gives a sense of place and of being nationalist in the best sense – not in the negative way in which that word has come to be used in recent times.
This is an extremely important matter. The issue regarding Connacht rugby is much wider than the amount of money that is being made available to people in the province to play with an oval ball. That is the issue upon which we are focused, but if we stand back we can see a broader picture. We can see a part of the country which is deprived of infrastructure, which has poor roads and railways, which is beautifully attractive geographically but which is struggling to make itself attractive in other ways. We need to compensate by positively discriminating in favour of such areas. That is the only way we will deal with a variety of issues.
The urbanisation and, more importantly, the "Dublinisation" of this country is being hastened by this kind of decision. There is a strategic issue, rooted in the policies we have for the development of rural areas, involved here. This issue is as important as closing a railway, of not putting in place a road or not building a school. This is infrastructurally and socially important and is also important in terms of health and of giving people – beginning with young people at under age levels – a sense of purpose in their lives. The sense of purpose they have in playing a game at one age may translate later into something like their educational progress and eventually into being a healthy, involved, active citizen. Social capital is invested by people who give their time to underage rugby, for example, and these people also need a vote of confidence at national level.
This motion touches upon many aspects of life and living and we do not need to apologise to anyone for tabling it. The Iraqi crisis is a more important issue, but we cannot talk about it every day. I would have debated Iraq today, but that does not diminish in any way the importance of this issue to many people who feel let down and deserted and who already feel that politicians in Dublin do not care much about their local needs. This is an example of reaching out and saying to people that this may not be the most important issue in the world, but that it is important and that we understand their position and are standing with them.
Pat Moylan (Fianna Fail)
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I will be brief, but wish to make a few points on this important issue. I compliment the Fine Gael group on its Private Members' motion. We have a right to vote against the motion of any party but I do not think we have the right to oppose its choice of topic. I take a dim view of the expressions of a particular Member to that effect earlier. It left a lot to be desired.
Players in the west and the midlands should have the right to their aims and aspirations in getting to the top in the game of rugby. I compliment the current rugby stars for what they are doing at national level. This evening we are trying to influence the IRFU to make the right decision on professional rugby in Connacht.
While personally my commitment has been to the GAA, I compliment those who are involved in promoting rugby among young people. If those young people were not involved in playing rugby or some other sport, we would have far greater problems. It must be acknowledged that the State currently spends very little on this great work.
Rugby is a great spectator sport with a high tally of scores. It is important that we record some of the points put to us by the Connacht branch of the IRFU last week when we met them in Buswells Hotel. The IRFU is a 32-county organisation charged with promoting, fostering and developing the game in all four provinces. That must be recognised. Why is it considering taking professional status from Connacht? It would be very wrong to do so.
The development plan objectives for 2000-05 have all been met on target in Connacht. The senior team has had a 60% success rate. The branch has developed the local grounds and infrastructure and increased the player base as well as the number of clubs and schools. Previous speakers have also outlined this.
Connacht was the first ever Irish provincial team to win in France and England, a breakthrough for this country in rugby terms in 1997. It put down a marker that we had clubs capable of success at international level. It won two Celtic League quarter finals and two European Shield Parker Pen quarter finals. All this suggests that the Connacht branch is doing an excellent job. In the Connacht schools interprovincial competition of 1999-2000 they won three games, drew one and lost three. In 2000-2003 they won nine games and lost three. That is positive proof that they are moving in the right direction. There were between seven and 18 under age club players in Connacht in 1997 out of a total of 1,540. There are now 2,750 players, which is again proof of the work being done in the area.
In my own town, as with other midland towns on Saturday mornings, there are many people involved in rugby training for young people. The work they are doing must be recognised and supported. There is an opportunity for rugby in the closed season of the GAA during which GAA players can keep fit by playing rugby. Not everyone will make the top grade but it is a chance for players who wish to experience other games.
The IRFU currently has 214 clubs and 254 schools catering for a total playing population of around 79,000 people. Tonight's debate is focused on the professional game of rugby in Connacht. This must be supported. Perhaps we are not getting the full story. There was a rumour that a particular international competition was looking for only three teams from Ireland and the easy way out was to go the current route. I support the motion and plead with the IRFU to continue to support rugby in Connacht. I have no doubt that if it does so it will be richly rewarded at international level in the future.
Michael Finucane (Fine Gael)
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I support this motion and I compliment my colleagues who put it down. I applaud the unified approach taken by the Government side, which has meant that the motion reflects the thinking of all of us in regard to the crazy decision by the IRFU to undermine one particular province that was quite successful in its rugby activity.
Buccaneers is one of the Connacht teams whose players come from both Athlone and Ballinasloe. Over the past two years Ballinasloe has lost in excess of 500 jobs and if this dimension is taken out of it as well, surely it sends the message that nobody cares.
I see at first hand in Newcastlewest the great work done at under age level in rugby. At present, Limerick is generating much publicity in the media. This is very unfortunate and is doing a lot of damage to the community, particularly in regard to tourism. As the Garda chief superintendent said, there are eight or nine families involved in trouble. There is a multiplicity of rugby clubs in Limerick city catering for people regardless of their social status. Is it not a pity that the families causing all this heartbreak and bad profile for Limerick are not involved in under age rugby, soccer or GAA clubs? It would be a more fertile ground of activity in which to display themselves. Limerick has an international reputation as a rugby city; Thomond Park has always been regarded as the cradle of rugby.
This is a timely motion on which the debate has been good spirited. We might influence the thinking of the IRFU, which should not proceed to undo the good work done in Connacht by making a rash decision that would be detrimental to rugby in the province. I disagree with what Senator Ryan said. It is almost as if Fine Gael should seek his consent when it wants to table a motion. I would hate to see that evolving.
Iraq is important and we have seen and read the acres of newsprint generated in recent times. If we were to spend an entire day debating it in this House, would we influence even slightly what is currently happening there? Would we change the minds of President Bush or Saddam Hussein? We would be giving ourselves lofty powers if we thought we could do so.
Senator Dardis said he disagreed with mixing politics and sport. We must rise above this. I do not think this is mixing politics and sport. I compliment the Seanad on dealing with the motion which is timely, pertinent and relevant. Sometimes motions before this House are timelier than those in the Lower House. This is good motion which should be supported.
Margaret Cox (Fianna Fail)
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I wish to share my time with Senator Mansergh.
Margaret Cox (Fianna Fail)
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It gives me great pleasure to take the opportunity to defend the people of Connacht. I grew up in the province and will defend it to the ends of the earth. Many of my friends in Galway will remember the first rugby match I went to with my husband. He was my boyfriend then, but we nearly broke up before the end of it when I asked him if the team which had put the ball over the bar had scored a point. I think he thought I was not on the right playing pitch.
When one sees a five year old child asking for a Connacht rugby jersey on his Santa list, one can see the difference sport can make to the lives of every family and community. I will happily admit that I do not know an awful lot about rugby and have never attended an international game in Lansdowne Road but this does not mean I do not believe the IRFU's plan to take away Connacht's professional squad is in any way justified or equitable.
I am delighted to hear the Minister confirm that he intends to meet the IRFU to discuss this important and sensitive issue. He also said he was certain the views of Senators as expressed in this debate would be taken on board by the IRFU. I hope it is listening very carefully.
Any kind of sport is the lifeblood of both urban and rural communities. When children and young people are playing sport, they are not hanging around on street corners, dabbling in drugs, drinking themselves stupid or getting into trouble. It is often hard for those living in rural communities to find other outlets because of a lack of facilities such as cinemas etc. The local sports hall, club and matches give occasion for people to come together. Even the AGMs of local rugby clubs are reasons for them to get together and have contact with the outside world. That is what Connacht rugby means.
I am familiar with the Connemara team. I am familiar in so far as I know it has been successful but I do not know its name. That does not matter, I know it exists and is doing a good job in the community. It is giving young people in the area something to look up to. We defend the right to have this.
Martin Mansergh (Fianna Fail)
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I commend Fine Gael for tabling this motion and my party colleagues for tabling a supportive motion. I express my full solidarity with the Senators from Connacht. Rugby is one of the sports in which I have an interest; my grandfather presented a cup that is still played for by clubs in Tipperary. I played the sport for a few years.
Any national organisation, voluntary or otherwise, should operate on the principle of inclusion. I am astonished to have to come to this House to defend the fourth green field – the fourth green field being Connacht. Rugby is not played as the most sensitive of sports – one has only to think of the studs on the boots – but "to Hell or to Connacht" is not a policy that should recommend itself to any organisation. We had a good discussion in this House before Christmas about single gender golf clubs. The same principle applies here. We must have inclusion.
Mary Henry (Independent)
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I wish to share my time with Senators Paddy Burke and Feeney.
Mary Henry (Independent)
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I reinforce what Senator Mansergh said. In our last debate on tourism I was very opposed to the Irish Open Golf Championship being held at a club which discriminates against women. Now we have a sports organisation which has been given money by the State discriminating on a provincial basis, which is even smaller than discriminating on a gender basis. I urge the Minister to take this issue seriously.
Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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I thank Senator Henry for sharing time with Senator Feeney and me. It is difficult to cover everything I want to say in two minutes. Some 1,500 people marched in relation to what is happening to Connacht rugby and one can only agree with their views in that regard.
Senator O'Toole said that all sorts of suggestions can be made. I am delighted that the Minister for Arts, Sport and Tourism has agreed to meet the IRFU in relation to this matter. I hope he will keep all avenues open. Several suggestions could be made and many avenues could be explored in this regard. This is an issue in respect of which we cannot afford to remain silent. I have not played rugby, but I was delighted to use the training facilities of many rugby clubs in Munster, Ulster and Connacht more than 25 years ago when I played football. I always take great pleasure in slagging off a former president of Castlebar rugby club, Donagh Barry, who comes from the constituency represented by the Minister of State, Deputy Gallagher, and who said rugby is a sissies' game because the players have to throw the ball to each other, tee it up on a peg to kick it and lift each other up to catch it.
I realise what the people of Connacht have done to promote the game. Several Senators referred to the fact that rugby is played in 43 schools in Connacht. I was lucky enough to go to a secondary school where hurling was played. I refer to Ballinafad college, which has since closed and which was the only school in County Mayo where hurling was played. When entering competitions in Connacht, we had to play against teams in Galway. Some 43 national schools now play rugby in Connacht. That is unbelievable. When I was in secondary school, Garbally was probably the only college where rugby was played. There were certainly few others.
I support this worthwhile motion. Some 1,500 people walked to the IRFU buildings to protest over what is happening. This is about having four professional rugby teams in Ireland, it is not about Connacht, which is the fourth professional team, having an identity. We must put our weight behind those involved. I have no doubt that a solution can be found. I am delighted the Minister said he will meet the IRFU in the near future and I hope he will keep all avenues open.
Geraldine Feeney (Fianna Fail)
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I am thrilled to support the motion. Senator O'Rourke, other Members – including Senator Higgins – from the other side of the House and I were happy were happy to be involved in the protest march from Baggot Street to the offices of the IRFU. Without telling Members my age, for the past 23 years I have been proud to be associated with club rugby, school rugby and provincial rugby, at junior and senior level, in Connacht. I know from where my colleague, Senator Ulick Burke comes, given that he taught in a school which is renowned with school rugby in Connacht.
My late husband was capped on three occasions for the province. My 21 year old son has two caps for Connacht to date. My second son has a cap for school rugby in Connacht. I am extremely proud of them. There is a cup – the Frank Feeney memorial cup – dedicated to the memory of my late husband for which juvenile teams from Connacht and Northern Ireland compete every May in Sligo.
If the IRFU goes through with what it intends to do, I would hate to think where this would leave juvenile rugby, school rugby, club rugby and junior rugby in Connacht. The IRFU has said that what it intends to do will not affect them, but anyone in his or her right mind would know that they will be affected. These children and young men do not have anything to which to aspire. I see that in my son, who is playing junior rugby in Connacht. He spent three months in New Zealand during the summer being trained by the All Blacks in Christchurch. He does not have anything to which to aspire. He would like to think that he could try out for the Connacht senior team, but if there will not be such a team I can see him losing interest in the game.
I can understand at one level the predicament facing the IRFU. Why does it not tap into its revenue potential and develop a commercial focus, which is something it lacks? In particular, the merchandising of the Connacht team gear is abysmal. Prior to the march last Thursday we went down Grafton Street to try to buy Connacht caps or scarves, but we could not get them. We had to pay an outrageous amount of money for jerseys with short sleeves. Dublin sports shops do not stock Connacht merchandise. It is a shame that the IRFU does not run the merchandise end of its business a little better.
I wish to quote from an article in The Irish Times yesterday and I hope I am giving credit to the right person for this. I think it was Gerry Thornley who said, "If you have got to trim the fat, don't cut off the limb". The IRFU should take note that we will not take this sitting down and we intend to fight.
Brian Hayes (Fine Gael)
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I would like to thank all the Members who contributed to this debate. Some 16 Senators contributed, which represents more than 25% of the membership of the House. Due to time constraints, some Members who wished to contribute were not able to do so. If ever there was an issue about which Members, representing people throughout the country, feel strongly and in respect of which they want their opinions heard, it is this one. I am happy the debate was held in the main in that spirit despite the rather latent contribution from Senator Ryan.
I wish to say to Senator Ryan and others that it would have been my intention today to have a debate on Iraq. With respect to the Leader of the House, the time for such a debate should have been provided by the Government. We have a debate on such matters day in and day out. I will not have Senators lecture my party and other Members about issues which we can or cannot discuss.
Senator Ryan holds the unenviable belief that politics began the day he was elected and that the rest of us are here as some kind of supporting cast to him and others. I say to him and anyone else from a certain small section of Dublin 4 who believe they have a right to lecture us on these matters that we will not accept lectures from them or anyone else. We will stand on our own two feet. If ever there was an issue which engendered common cause and a sense of partnership on all sides of the House, it is this one. When the IRFU changes it mind about this crazy decision – I believe it will do so – colleagues on all sides of the House who contributed to the debate on this issue will be able to take credit.
This has been an important debate. I thank many of the Members who made excellent points. Senator Feeney, in an excellent contribution, spoke from the heart about her personal involvement in the Connacht branch and in Connacht rugby. She may not know that I spent six years in Garbally and was taught by the Senator to my right, but I will leave that for my memoirs in 20 years' time.
Senator Kieran Phelan raised an important point about accountability. There is the matter of the IRFU's current expenditure in terms of what Senator Cummins referred to as the "blazer brigade". Given that the IRFU is trying to cut back on its expenses, is it correct that it should pay top dollar for some 88 rooms in respect of an upcoming match? I was not aware of this important point.
Another important point was made by the Minister about the Irish Sports Council which should make its views known on this issue because it has given good advice to the Government in recent years about capital programmes. As we heard from the Minister, the IRFU has received €11.5 million since 1998 for its capital programme. What is the view of the Irish Sports Council on this issue given its specific remit to help organised sport in parts of the country where social and economic problems must be confronted? Most importantly, the Minister said in his contribution that he would meet the IRFU.
Sometimes in politics we question our relevance. If any good comes from this, which can only be the decision to reinstate Connacht professional rugby in full, I hope this debate will have played a role. We represent the people who elected us, the ordinary people who, as someone once said, have their dinner in the middle of the day. They want us to raise these issues in the Houses. We are frequently chastised by the media for not raising issues of relevance to the people. If ever there was such an issue, this is it, on which we have heard a common voice bar one nasty intervention. That is the role the Seanad must play if it is to have any meaningful role in democracy.