Seanad debates
Wednesday, 11 December 2002
Primary Education: Motion.
Brian Hayes (Fine Gael)
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On a point of order, it is the order of the House that the debate on this motion should start at 6 p.m. As it is now 6 p.m., I move that the motion be put.
Ulick Burke (Fine Gael)
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I move:
That Seanad Éireann
–deplores the failure of both Government Parties to honour their election pledges to eliminate the current substandard inadequate primary school buildings and facilities, that are a risk to the health and safety of pupils and teachers and prevent the implementations of the full primary school curriculum:
–condemns the decision of the Minister for Education and Science to allow a cut in funding for the primary school building programme;
–and demands
–that this decision be reversed and funding for the programme be increased to €250 million per annum for the next five years;
–that the 40 primary schools identified by the INTO as unfit for habitation be immediately allowed to go to tender;
–that all Boards of Management of the other remaining schools awaiting approval be informed as to when their school will be allowed to go to tender;
–and that all schools with the appropriate enrolment for an additional teacher will have that appointment sanctioned.
I welcome the Minister of State, Deputy de Valera. The Government amendment is predictable, but it is also unfortunate and unworthy. I draw the House's attention to the election promises of both Government parties. Fianna Fáil's promise stated: "We will continue our policy of implementing significant increases in direct school funding." That should be noted, as in reality there was a reduction. It also stated: "We will build on the unprecedented investment we have made in school buildings to ensure every school attains modern standards within five years." The Progressive Democrats' promise stated: "We will ensure that every primary school reaches and is maintained at an acceptable, explicit national standard within three years [there is a fair bit of outbidding there] and that the primary school building capital budget will be increased to over 200 million within three years."
With what have we been presented? Cuts. It is strange that out of the Government's education budget only €147 million is allocated to primary school improvements. We can dress that up any way we please, but that is why I find it difficult to stomach the Government amendment. I am not sure the Minister of State would have been party to such an amendment.
There is a 4% reduction in the Estimates which, allowing for building inflation, is a 10% cutback in real terms. Building in almost 400 primary schools has been frozen as a result of these cutbacks. Those schools were listed in a survey in The Irish Times last week and 40 of them are in County Galway. The Department announced on 4 April 2001 that funding was in place for 30 schools nationally for work from the architectural planning stage. On 5 November 2002 work on only 17 of those schools had advanced to any degree. Who is telling lies or being deceitful? The figures do not add up.
John Dardis (Progressive Democrats)
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The former Senator is not here to defend himself.
Ulick Burke (Fine Gael)
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Yes, I have the headline: "Minister's good news for Coralstown school deputation." A deputation, headed by the then Senator, visited the then Minister's clinic and the good news was announced in a blaze of glory afterwards. It is strange that this school is not among the 17 in respect of which progress has been made. How can boards of management, parents and pupils in the other 398 schools in need believe anything that emanates from either the Minister or the Department?
I hope a new beginning can be made and that when the current Minister says he wants to see transparency, we will see transparency. We should have no fudging or dressing up in the lead-in to an election; we should get definitive answers. In the past five years Opposition Members in this House and in the Dáil asked the Minister to tell boards of management what progress could realistically be achieved by schools in need.
The INTO has identified 78 schools as unfit for habitation, stating that staff and pupils in those schools were under threat from unhygienic, damp conditions, overcrowding and, in some cases, rat infestations or worse. That is the reality. A school in my constituency received promises which have come to nothing. I am talking about Moyglass national school where nothing has happened despite a firm undertaking in writing from the Minister's office that this school had been given the go-ahead and work could commence immediately. Some 40 schools in County Galway – the second highest population centre after Dublin – are in urgent need of attention.
With regard to the schools listed during the term of the previous Government, the findings of a further survey carried out by the INTO are a damning indictment of inactivity during the past five years when times were prosperous and work could have been done. The then Minister, Deputy Woods – I said this to him in his presence – did nothing and allowed those schools to deteriorate even further, a process that will probably continue in the immediate future.
Of the 75 schools surveyed, 66% had inadequate toilet facilities – many of them have outdoor toilets – 50% have inadequate handwashing or drying facilities, 40% do not have adequate heating, 43% either have no drinking water or have water that is unfit for human consumption, 47% have rotten windows and doors, 71% have an inadequate or unsafe schoolyard and most do not have the basic facilities of a general purpose room, a principal's office, a staff room or a room where extra tuition can be given to support disadvantaged children. Teachers supporting the disadvantaged are teaching in corridors.
We are supposed to be one of the richest countries in Europe, but we have Third World conditions in some of our primary schools. Are these conditions considered to provide equality for all our children? I ask the Minister of State to ensure that somebody brings forward a plan to address this position. The Minister for Education and Science, Deputy Dempsey, promised a modernisation plan five years down the road with a reduced budget. I demand that the Department of Education and Science give a realistic estimate of the time it will take to complete these projects. We must prioritise them if necessary. The projects must be completed and those concerned should be assured that their needs will not be ignored.
A sore point is that some schools can jump the queue in terms of being granted project approval. Some schools are put at the top of the list on making an application. Parents groups and school management boards who gathered shillings and pence to fund such projects have noted other schools jump the queue in terms of being granted approval for projects. That position cannot be allowed to continue except in an emergency.
I ask the Minister of State to ensure in fairness to the children concerned that the position which has prevailed for the past five or six years, and which will be accentuated in the next year or two, will not be allowed to continue. Thousands of children are in school in cold conditions and are hungry, but the Government pays no heed to addressing their needs. The Minister of State is a responsible person and she has a responsibility to change the position. This must be done.
Brian Hayes (Fine Gael)
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It gives me great pleasure to second this motion on behalf of my colleagues in the Fine Gael group. I commend Senator Burke on publishing this motion on behalf of our party and putting the case eloquently to the House. I welcome the Minister of State at the Department of Education and Science, Deputy de Valera, to the House. She is a capable Minister and I wish her well in the Department. She has a capacity to get through the bureaucracy and sort out problems. I hope this is the issue which she will devote her time to sorting out in the coming years.
This is the most important issue to be debated in Private Members' time for one straightforward reason. If ever lies were told, people having been told given assurances before the last election, it must be in the area of primary school buildings. We all accept that there has been a substantial increase in funding in all sectors of education over the past five to ten years, and that is welcome. The primary school sector must be given priority, primarily because all children have an opportunity to go to school.
Lies were told in a myriad of constituencies in advance of the general election and communities were told that certain schools would be sorted out in the context of decisions that were made. The Minister of State at the Department of Education and Science, Deputy de Valera, and the Minister, Deputy Dempsey, must defend the gross deception that was perpetrated on these communities by the former Minister, Deputy Woods, who, in the most gratuitous and offensive way, tried to buy votes on the back of promises made that cannot now be fulfilled. That is why this motion has been tabled. It highlights the deception, lies and the con job perpetrated on the people in advance of the general election. This was done in the most vulnerable communities who need a decent standard of education. This deception must be highlighted.
Six weeks prior to the general election the number of school projects put on the architectural planning list increased enormously to 400 – the number prior to then was less than 100. Communities in the 42 Dáil constituencies were told they would get the projects they demanded because a general election was taking place. I come from a parish in Tallaght where two of the Minister of State's colleagues, who are Deputies in a party that supports the Government, went around 1,700 houses and told the people ten days in advance of the election that the refurbishment programme which a school had been seeking for ten years would be delivered. Those people in my parish have been on the streets since the election because of the lies that were told. The spoof and con tricks have been exposed because there is no money available to provide for such school projects.
The Minister of State must take responsibility for this on behalf of the previous Minister, Deputy Woods, who made these commitments to aspiring Deputies in the 42 Dáil consitutentices. As Senator Ulick Burke correctly pointed out, this is not an isolated case. This happened in a systematic political campaign where the most marginal constituencies were highlighted by the former Government as the constituencies to be delivered on in terms of the refurbishment programme. We are left in the appalling position where those of us on this side of the House must highlight the deception that took place and urge the Government to proceed in terms of delivering the best possible programme for these schools. What is the way forward? In terms of the new economic circumstances the Government faces, it is time that, once and for all, we should deal with the 400 schools on that list.
If that means using some of the proceeds of the national lottery to complete the refurbishment programme, let us do so. We did it before, as the Minister of State knows, between 1987 and 1989 when some of the proceeds of the national lottery were invested in the health services. The Government should invest part of the proceeds of the national lottery in education so that the refurbishment of schools can be completed. This has been an ongoing matter of contention between the Government and the people. I would support such a move and would like to hear the Minister of State's view on it.
The amendment to the motion states that the Government wants to advance what is described as public private partnership projects in primary school areas as speedily as possible. What is meant by that? I am not aware to date of examples where schools have been built with private sector funding. I would not oppose it on any ideological basis, and there may be one case.If so, let us see it. I am not aware of any example in the primary school sector. I would like to see the refurbishment of schools advanced as speedily as possible. Delivering this for the 400 schools on the list will take a huge amount of revenue over the next few years.
As a result of the deception of the people and the lies told by the Department of Education and Science through the Minister in the general election, there is a case for removing responsibility for school refurbishment and expansion from the Department. People no longer believe the Government because of its spoofing in advance of the election. There is a political as well as a public argument to be made for taking responsibility for this area from the Department of Education and Science and allocating it to an independent body which would monitor the 400 schools in question to ensure their refurbishment programmes are advanced over the next four years.
This is an issue of huge concern in my community. More than ten days ago, we took to the streets in my parish because of the anger felt in the community. We will continue to do this until such time as our legitimate concerns our met. I appeal to the Minister of State to accept the substantive motion in the name of my colleagues to ensure that we deal with the accommodation needs of these 400 schools over the next three to four years.
Liam Fitzgerald (Fianna Fail)
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I move amendment No. 1:
To delete all words after "Seanad Éireann" and substitute the following:
"–noting the Government's commitment towards improving school accommodation as demonstrated by the fourfold increase in funding for primary buildings since 1997;
–noting the dramatic expansion of the school building and refurbishment programme at primary level;
–noting the intention of the Government to proceed as speedily as possible with Public Private Partnership projects in the primary area;
–noting the improvement in the pupil teacher ratio at primary level;
commends the Government for the expansion of the primary capital programme; and notes the determination of the Minister for Education and Science and the Government to continue the school building programme in order to meet new and emerging needs and to eliminate the substandard accommodation which has accumulated in primary schools because of past under-investment."
Fearaim fíorchaoin fáilte roimh an Aire Stáit. Over the past 20 minutes we have listened to highly charged and emotive language, allegations of lies and other wild and, in many cases, unfounded allegations. I will do my best to resist and not respond in kind. I will deal briefly with the queue jumping syndrome to which Senator Ulick Burke referred. I am familiar with the plans the Minister and Minister of State have in place to deal with that effectively. I will also deal with the culture of publishing lists prior to elections, a culture which has prevailed over many decades and during the watches of successive Governments.
Liam Fitzgerald (Fianna Fail)
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I sympathise with any community whose school has been delayed in receiving urgent remedial refurbishment, as I am sure do the Minister of State, the Minister, the Government and anyone with care for education and the needs and demands of local communities.
Senator Brian Hayes made a point about diverting massive resources to deal with the 400 schools on the lists. Lists are nothing new from the INTO. I happen to be a member of the union and it has published lists down the years.
Liam Fitzgerald (Fianna Fail)
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The union has a legitimate right – a duty – to publish lists. I am sure the Minister and the Government would love to divert massive resources to deal with the schools on the list, but it is a matter of making choices. I want to outline a few principles to the House, and the Opposition in particular, about making choices and prioritising.
We must face a few unpalatable facts. It has been grudgingly acknowledged during the debate that overall funding of the Department of Education and Science has increased by 94% between 1997 and 2002, from €2.9 billion to €5.6 billion. It has practically doubled and that is a fact. Even with a global economic slowdown and the impact that has had on the economy, the Government has protected and sheltered education from some of its worst effects. There can be no doubt about the Government's commitment to the improvement of the school accommodation programme. The commitment will be delivered upon.
Liam Fitzgerald (Fianna Fail)
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We are talking about a Government with a proud record of achievement since 1997.
Liam Fitzgerald (Fianna Fail)
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Capital funding has increased fourfold from €124 million in 1997 to €508 million in 2003.
Liam Fitzgerald (Fianna Fail)
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Capital funding for primary and post-primary schools has risen from €93 million to €338 million over the same period, an increase of more than 350%.
Liam Fitzgerald (Fianna Fail)
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At the same time, capitation funding has risen from €57 to €101 per pupil in primary schools. This has been one of the ongoing bones of contention for teachers. I know because I had 12 years of it when I taught in an inner city school. The funding has been almost doubled. No one can dispute that this is a spectacular expansion in the education capital programme and the primary capital programme in particular. The facts speak for themselves.
The position of the Government is clear. It is determined, as demonstrated over the past five years, to continue the school building programme to meet new, growing and diverse needs—
Ulick Burke (Fine Gael)
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Diverse is the word. There is no water nor are there proper toilets in some schools.
Liam Fitzgerald (Fianna Fail)
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—as well as to eliminate substandard accommodation. That determination is unflinching and I can give that commitment to the House.
Notwithstanding that, it is acknowledged that there will be a slowdown in the rate of expansion of the building and refurbishment programmes over the coming year. We do not deny it. At the same time, the need for the refurbishment of existing accommodation is growing and we also acknowledge that. We do not deny the existence of lists in this regard.
As for transparency, I hope I have the opportunity to outline the many initiatives taken by the Minister, the Minister of State and the Department to transform the culture which has been pervasive for decades and for which the party of the Senators opposite was equally culpable when in Government
Liam Fitzgerald (Fianna Fail)
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I do not defend any party for encouraging this culture, but it existed and was pervasive until recently. It will change.
Liam Fitzgerald (Fianna Fail)
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It has begun and we are delivering already. The slowdown in the expansion of the schools building and refurbishment programme is due to economic factors. Reality must prevail and we must cut our cloth to suit our measure. Given our overall economic position, the Minister and the Department have done very well to bring forward a programme that is expansionist but at a slower rate.
A number of Senators referred to the INTO list.
Ulick Burke (Fine Gael)
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There is another one in The Irish Times.
Liam Fitzgerald (Fianna Fail)
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This list is nothing new and it has been in place for many years. We accept that there is an increase in the number of schools on the list, but there is an historical reason for this which must be taken into account. It is easy to suggest that the capital programme for primary buildings should be raised to €250 million per annum for the next five years.
Liam Fitzgerald (Fianna Fail)
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However, such an aspiration belongs to the world of Cinderella. I thank God that, as a result of action on the part of this Government, the primary education sector moved away from Cinderella's world many years ago.
Liam Fitzgerald (Fianna Fail)
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—that have been brought forward in the past five years. Education is safe in the hands of the Minister.
Maurice Cummins (Fine Gael)
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I listened in awe to Senator Fitzgerald trying to defend the indefensible. To paraphrase a song from a Gilbert and Sullivan operetta, I have got them on the list. The following ten schools in Waterford are on the list to which I refer: Naomh Mhuire, Ballygunner; Scoil Lorcáin, in St. John's Park, Waterford; St. Paul's Junior School, Lisduggan; Gaelscoil Phort Láirge, Ballygunner; Ballyduff National School, Kilmeaden; Butlerstown School; Knockanore National School; Scoil na bhFiodh, Kilmacthomas; and Holy Cross School, Tramore.
Money was promised like snuff at a wake prior to the general election. These are not allegations, but facts and realities. Fianna Fáil candidates visited these schools and stated that money would be available immediately. It is good to see members of the boards of management of these schools going on local radio and telling newspaper journalists about the false promises that were made and the false hope that was given to schoolchildren and their parents. They are being told that leaking roofs can be fixed, but for many years we have only had patchwork funding of primary schools.
The budget may be more than €5 billion, but only €147 million is being spent on capital projects in primary schools. That is not sufficient and more money will have to be provided. However, the Government has decreased the amount of money available for capital projects in the budget. Despite the State's wealth, this is the way we treat our schoolchildren and the teachers who are trying to teach in substandard schools. I compliment the Minister for saying he will not tolerate queue jumping. He must honour that promise, but it will not be sufficient. He should not tolerate what is happening and should demand more money. A budget sets priorities. It is obvious that primary schoolchildren, their parents, teachers and the boards of management are not on the Government's priority list.
I could say more, but I would only be repeating what my colleagues stated. The lack of money for primary schools is not a localised matter, it is one that affects the lives of people throughout the country. It is something the Government must tackle and the sooner the better. Pious platitudes will not solve the problems in our national schools.
Síle de Valera (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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In asking the House to endorse the achievements of the Government in addressing the accommodation needs of primary schools, I assure Senators that the programme of capital investment in the primary sector will continue and that the allocation of €147 million for 2003 will enable us to consolidate the very considerable progress that has been made over the last several years. Admittedly, in view of current economic realities and the tightening of the financial position, the rate of progress in 2003 will be somewhat slower than we would have liked.
Contrary to what has been said by the Opposition parties here and in the Dáil, neither the Minister, Deputy Dempsey, nor his immediate predecessor have ever underestimated the scale of the task facing us or the length of time required to address the many accommodation problems in primary schools. As a result of under-investment over the course of decades, many schools are in a poor state of repair and require substantial funding for upgrading to meet modern requirements. There is no point in pretending that it will be possible to improve the accommodation situation in all schools overnight and deal with emerging needs at the same time.
Capital expenditure on primary buildings in 2002 will be €172.6 million. As a result of the Government's commitment to funding educational infrastructure, in excess of 120 major capital projects in the primary sector have recently been completed or are under construction. Many of these projects will continue in construction into 2003.
I want to dispel a misunderstanding that has arisen in relation to the 400 major primary school projects in architectural planning that are listed on my Department's website. These projects were not included in the 2002 construction programme. Because they are major projects, they have to go through a detailed process of architectural planning which can take a considerable period to complete.
The starting date for construction of any major school building project depends on factors such as its size; the complexity of the architectural planning; land acquisition, where necessary; sorting out title to the property; the period required for the granting of planning permission and obtaining a fire certificate; the outcome of the tender competition and the procurement of bonds; and insurance and tax clearance by prospective contractors. The financial commitments to be met from building projects already in construction are also important factors in determining the number of projects that may proceed at any given time. It is my Department's intention to release the projects in architectural planning to construction on a phased basis over a number of years.
All applications to the Department of Education and Science for capital funding are subject to a detailed process of prioritisation. In brief, priority is given to the following broad categories of projects: new schools to cater for substantial increases in enrolments in rapidly developing areas where no other primary school exists; accommodation which is urgently required for children with special needs such as autism or speech and language disorders; the upgrading and refurbishment of special schools; the replacement or refurbishment of very poor buildings, including old prefabs – an example might be a structurally unsound building; and the provision of accommodation which is necessary to facilitate agreed amalgamations. While the primary responsibility for health and safety in school buildings rests with school management authorities, naturally the Department will assist schools in fulfilling these obligations.
In addition to the capital grants made available to schools under the grants scheme for minor works to national school properties, amounting to €18 million annually, a further 1,700 grants for national schools have been sanctioned this year, amounting to €61 million. About one third of these grants were in respect of health and safety works to school properties. The remaining grants were for temporary accommodation and the purchase of essential furniture and equipment.
Many of the specific issues raised by the INTO and in the media, for example, hand washing and drying facilities, heating, replacement of windows and doors and water supply, are more appropriately addressed using the devolved grant. This grant empowers schools to deal directly with such problems without the need to get approval from my Department. The vast majority of schools now deal with these minor works and do so very effectively.
The INTO regularly refers to "rat or mice infested primary schools". Rodent problems, as they would in any domestic, industrial or commercial setting, are more likely to arise if pest control policies are inadequate and where there is a poor maintenance regime. The most structurally sound buildings can suffer rodent infestation. It does not follow that rodent infestation, where it occurs, requires the construction of a new building or that dealing with such a problem must await construction of a new building. It may be colourful and headline grabbing to make such references, but the responsibility for dealing with such problems rests with local school management, which we provide with annual funding for this purpose, over which it has total discretion.
It is important that school management authorities carry out routine maintenance in accordance with the guidelines issued by the Department and utilise public moneys given to them in a proper and effective manner. To assist schools, the Department issued detailed advice in the form of a manual on school maintenance. The manual was recently placed on the Department's website for ease of reference and gives clear, practical guidance on the typical maintenance issues likely to arise in primary school buildings. It is designed to assist boards of management in fulfilling their responsibilities in relation to the upkeep and improvement of school premises. It is also intended to ensure capital grants given to all schools on an annual basis under the devolved grants scheme are properly expended.
Despite the increase in the level of funding in recent years, there is a corresponding demand which reflects an historical deficit. However, it is not realistic to expect that all problems relating to school accommodation can be addressed immediately. The Government remains committed to continuing the work it has started and consolidating the substantial progress that has already been made in order to ensure the needs of schools are met over time. The process of investment in educational infrastructure begun by the previous Administration will be continued, as outlined in An Agreed Programme for Government.
To meet our objectives the Minister will look closely at the potential for using public-private partnership mechanisms and the concept advanced in the programme for Government of a multi-annual programme, the schools' modernisation fund, to be financed through the National Development Finance Agency. The Government acknowledges that much more needs to be done to tackle poor accommodation in primary schools and, within the constraints of financial resources, we intend to continue with a phased programme of construction works over the lifetime of the Administration. For the information of the House, the Minister intends publishing his expenditure proposals for primary school buildings in the new year. The Department's website will be updated at regular intervals from that point on.
In order to ensure the long-term planning of capital provision through a precise and detailed identification of accommodation needs in schools the Department has undertaken, on a pilot basis, a comprehensive inventory of the accommodation of 115 primary and post-primary schools in County Kildare. The information gained from the survey will be placed on a geographic information system – GIS – database. The Department is undertaking a detailed assessment of the pilot phase of the inventory to determine more precisely the nature and extent of the nationwide survey.
Acknowledging the accommodation needs of primary schools, the Government has hugely increased the level of resources made available for primary buildings in recent years. Redressing past under-investment will take time, but the Government is determined to ensure the needs of schools are met on a phased and equitable basis.
In tandem with the improvements being made in physical infrastructure the Government is committed to continuing to improve the pupil-teacher ratio at primary level. With regard to the appointment of additional teachers, most Senators will be aware that the mainstream staffing allocation of a primary school for a particular school year is outlined in a circular issued to all boards of management by the Department. This staffing schedule is agreed following discussions with the education partners. The number of mainstream posts sanctioned for a school is determined by reference to the staffing schedule and the enrolment in the school on 30 September of the previous year. Therefore, all boards are aware of the actual staffing position for their school in any school year and may appoint the number of teachers warranted by reference to the staffing schedule.
Síle de Valera (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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An independent appeals board on mainstream staffing allocations has been established and commenced operation at the beginning of the 2002-03 school year. The purpose of the board is to allow for the independent consideration of appeals, under certain criteria, against the mainstream staffing schedule issued to schools. The criteria were outlined in Circular 19/02, which issued to all boards of management in August 2002. The appeals board operates independently of the Department. Its decisions are final and communicated directly to the relevant board of management.
The Government has significantly improved the pupil-teacher ratio at primary level from 21.7:1 in the 1997-98 school year to 19:1 in the 2001-02 school year. An Agreed Programme for Government contains commitments to continue to reduce the pupil-teacher ratio in our schools and progressively introduce maximum class size guidelines which will ensure the average size of classes for children in junior classes will be below the international best practice guidelines of 20:1. We are also committed to implementing changes to retention and support policies which will assist schools in areas of significant disadvantage in recruiting and retaining teachers.
Social inclusion represents a key priority for the Government.
Síle de Valera (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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In the area of education our overall approach to tackling educational disadvantage has been framed within the context of the Government's national anti-poverty strategy, NAPS. The NAPS approach is based on a continuum of provision from early childhood though adulthood, with the focus on preventive strategies, targeting and integrated community responses. Within this strategy we have set ourselves challenging and ambitious targets under the key headings of school literacy, adult literacy and school retention. These are designed to bring about an education system that allows all our citizens to realise their full potential.
Due to the very high importance attached to tackling the problems of educational disadvantage the Government provided for the establishment of a statutory committee on educational disadvantage under the Education Act, 1998, to advise on the policies and strategies to be adopted to identify and correct educational disadvantage. This committee brings together experts from across the community of education interests and will be a very important resource in planning to ensure real progress is made in this area.
The level of investment provided for in the current Estimate enables us to maintain existing services and make further progress in the primary and post-primary sectors with increased provision for resource teachers and special needs assistants in primary schools; increased provision for school retention initiatives generally, including the school completion programme, involving in excess of 370 primary and post-primary schools in 82 clusters with a budget in 2003 in the order of €23 million, up from €15.4 million in 2002; the Giving Children an Even Break programme which applies to 2,320 primary schools and involves the appointment of more than 200 additional teachers to ensure maximum class sizes in junior classes in those disadvantaged schools with the highest proportion of disadvantaged pupils will be 20 – the expenditure for this programme, combined with the resources dedicated to the Breaking the Cycle project, the support teacher project and the disadvantaged areas scheme, will be over €36.7 million in 2003; continued support for the home-school-community liaison service in all primary and second level schools with designated disadvantaged areas status. In addition to these schemes and initiatives, there is a wide range of other supports, including those for Traveller children, children of non-nationals and other vulnerable groups.
The Government's support for primary education is unprecedented. Our record in relation to improvements in the pupil-teacher ratio and improving school accommodation speaks for itself. Our commitment to combating educational disadvantage cannot be questioned. Over the next five years the Minister and I will continue to use the resources voted by the Oireachtas to maximise the benefit to children in primary schools by meeting our commitments in these areas. I commend the amended motion to the House.
Fergal Browne (Fine Gael)
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I thank the Minister of State for coming to the House. I wish to declare that I was a primary school teacher before I became a Senator. I may still be a member of the INTO, although I am not too sure. Maybe Senator Fitzgerald could advise me on that.
Primary education is beyond doubt the foundation stone of the education system and of the continued social and economic progress we have experienced in recent years. The Department of Education and Science has a dreadful record. If it were a business, it would have been bankrupt years ago. A child born in 2002 will go to school in 2006, so the Department has four years advance warning to cater for that.
In recent decades the Department has made an absolute mess of teacher numbers. When my sister went to college in the 1980s, there were far too many teachers graduating and friends of hers had to drive forklifts in London because they could not get work as teachers. Then Carysfort was closed, admittedly by a coalition Government including Fine Gael. In the 1990s when I was in college, there were too few teachers. The Department is now trying to ram through a large number of postgraduates to bring up the numbers.
In trying to do some corrective work, the Department, in its wisdom, decided to appoint a large number of resource teachers. All of us, particularly Senator Fitzgerald because he is a teacher, welcome the appointment of resource teachers but there is no point in it if they are being taken out of mainstream teaching, particularly if there are not enough teachers to fill their positions. That is happening.
There is the ludicrous case of teachers teaching in cloakrooms. When canvassing during the general election campaign, I made it my business to call to every school in every parish. The stories I was told were horrific. The Department needs to learn lessons. It gets plenty of advance warning. It needs to study the census figures carefully, identify the trends, find out how many children will be going to school in a certain year and ensure there are enough teachers. It should not create additional posts if there are not enough teachers to fill them or if they are being created at the expense of mainstream teaching, as is happening.
I do not understand the anomaly in the system where secondary schools receive two and a half times the capitation payment received by primary schools. Primary schools have the same expenses as secondary schools and the anomaly should be rectified immediately. That anomaly also forces small schools to choose between a part-time secretary or part-time caretaker.
We need to look at small schools and at one teacher schools. When the Minister for Health and Children was Opposition spokesperson on education in 1997, he gave a pledge before the general election that he would ensure all one teacher schools remained open. While that might sound good in theory, I have great difficulty with it. I hear stories of teachers in one teacher schools with only three or four pupils in a class and they might also have a resource teacher. Colleagues of mine in an urban school in Carlow have had 35 pupils in a class. There is no equality of treatment in that regard.
I understand the need for one teacher schools on islands and in remote parts of the country. However, where there is a cluster of one teacher schools, the Department should consider amalgamating them. Children miss out as well from a social point of view. If a pupil is on his or her own in class for eight years of primary school, what social skills will they develop? They miss out on basic things such as being in a school band, being involved in a football or hurling team and so on which, even leaving education aside, is important. In addition, a pupil could have a bad teacher and be stuck with them for the first eight years of their educational life. That could have a dramatic effect on them. They might even end up as a Senator – who knows?
Fergal Browne (Fine Gael)
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I jest. The last Government's biggest crime was the way it mistreated teachers and dealt with the voluntary aspect of teaching. The then Minister, Deputy Woods, downgraded teachers and made them feel bad about themselves. The last straw for teachers who gave up a lot of time voluntarily after school hours, invariably unappreciated by parents, was the way the Government annihilated them. The situation became farcical when those hired to supervise in secondary schools got paid more money than the amount teachers were looking for originally. There are questions to be answered in that regard.
I compliment the religious orders. But for them, many schools would not have been built and maintained. We live in a multi-ethnic society and we will face severe difficulties in schools in the coming years, if not already, when we will have children from different backgrounds, nationalities and denominations. We need to look at the role of the religious in education and at whether it is time for the State to take over schools completely. How can we accommodate the needs of a modern multi-ethnic society? It is a serious question to which I do not have the answer. We should have a debate in the House at a later stage on that issue.
The Minister of State referred to rodents in schools. I am thinking of a school in Carlow with a dedicated principal who ensured through vigilance that there were no rodents in the school, but her reward was that work on the school was deferred. There are two ways to look at this. Does a principal let a school become run down because it might help their case? Some have done so and the schools were refurbished far more quickly.
Teachers welcome the publication of the lists but they would like to know how schools are selected. What is the criterion? Is it purely political? What are the conditions? The Minister of State might include that on the website to let schools know how they are chosen. Most teachers are reasonable people and they would like to know when they can expect something to be done. To say sometime in the future is too vague. They would like a timeframe, whether six months or one or two years, because it would give them something to work towards.
Another issue which arose when I was going around the schools was the various agencies involved in the Department. It is time to set up one agency to look at school building projects. As far as I am aware, three different agencies are currently involved. We need one good unit with standard practices and standard specifications for classroom sizes which could be used as a template. Obviously, variations could be made for different schools. It would speed up the whole process.
The least we owe young people and teachers is a decent environment in which to work. With a so-called healthy economy, it is a disgrace children are being taught in classrooms in which one could not swing a cat. There is no space for art. We have made much play of ICT, information and communication technology in schools, but some classrooms do not even have space for a computer. Even in those which do have a computer, it is a distraction to children because there is not a corner in which to put it. These are serious issues.
Michael Kitt (Fianna Fail)
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I welcome the Minister of State, Deputy de Valera, to the House and wish her well in the Department of Education and Science. I compliment her on the work she is doing in the area of adult education. In the last Dáil I was chairman of the committee on education and one of the issues we addressed by way of report was literacy levels. We sought funding for adult education and the situation improved. I hope the Minister of State will be able to build on that in her term in office.
Like my colleague, Senator Fitzgerald, I welcome our increased commitment to school building and accommodation. Since 1997 there has been a fourfold increase in funding for primary school buildings. This is a huge issue and every Senator has spoken about it. While we have done well in terms of the appointment of additional teachers and the pupil teacher ratio has been reduced, there is a crying need for more investment in primary school buildings. It was a major issue during the general election campaign, as other Members and I found to our cost. The condition of primary school buildings was mentioned at every public meeting.
I am glad progress is being made and delighted the Minister has confirmed on the Department's website that 400 schools building projects are at architectural planning stage. A total of 40 are planned for County Galway, with five in the city and 35 in the county. With the exception of Dublin, the county has the greatest number of schools awaiting sanction for building projects.
The Minister of State reiterated the Department will publish the expenditure proposal for school buildings in January and the relevant schools will be advised at that stage. That is welcome. Like many previous speakers, I am a teacher by profession.
Michael Kitt (Fianna Fail)
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When I was teaching, there were no remedial or resource teachers or classroom assistants and the school psychological service had not been established. These issues were addressed during the years and 2,900 additional teachers, for example, have been appointed since 1997 at an annual cost of €116 million. The Government has done well, but I take Senator Browne's point that many of those teachers work in substandard conditions. I am amazed that professionals such as architects and engineers are still required to draft plans for prefabs, which is ridiculous. Recently, I came across a case where an architect was required to submit a planning application for a 50 square metre prefab. Such structures are needed quickly if remedial or resource teachers, classroom assistants are appointed or the psychological service is extended to new schools.
When former Deputies Donal Creed and Gemma Hussey served as Ministers in the Department of Education and Science, they introduced a successful initiative which provided for low cost buildings. This was maintained by the Leader of the House when she served as Minister for Education. I have seen classrooms which were built in the 1980s as stand-alone projects at a cost of £8,000 or £9,000. Architects and engineers were not needed as the school was only required to submit three quotations to the Department, which would then select the contractor before proceeding with the project. This approach should be adopted rather than using professionals for every small project.
I am afraid a similar pattern could emerge through the use of public-private partnerships. I would like to learn more about PPPs because transparency is necessary. The Minister for Education and Science stated he would try to address the primary school buildings issue in the same way he addressed group water schemes when he took up office as Minister for the Environment and Local Government in the previous Administration. He used a simple formula because the administration of the schemes was a shambles with people in rural Ireland paying charges for water while those living in cities did not. He streamlined the scheme by funding applications in the order they were submitted to the Department and I have every confidence he will do likewise in addressing the backlog of schools building projects, which is causing a significant furore throughout the State.
I hope the 40 schools identified by the INTO as unfit for habitation will be permitted to go to tender and that their boards of management will be notified when that will happen. I am sure they are included in the list of 400 schools building projects on the Department's website. While extra teachers have been appointed and the issue of schools projects is being addressed, the building programme must continue and should be simplified as much as possible. There were major cutbacks in the education budget in 1987, but the then Minister, now Senator O'Rourke, was able to provide funding for schools building projects, school transport and so on and other Ministers have done so in the meantime. Decisions need to be made to ensure funding is provided for schools buildings projects.
I congratulate the Minister for Education and Science and the Ministers of State at his Department on their work. They have a good grasp of what is required. The amendment states what the Government intends to do, but I hope they take on board the issues that have been raised in the debate in order that urgent work on school buildings can be fast-tracked. The boards of management of the schools involved should be notified as quickly as possible regarding when they can expect the contracts for the projects to go to tender and work to commence and be completed. The Minister intends to do this. I wish him and the Department well. I thank the officials in the Department in Tullamore with whom Members have many dealings. They try their best to make progress and update us on different applications for school improvements.
Brendan Ryan (Labour)
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In supporting the motion tabled by my colleagues in Fine Gael I am anxious not to behave like a typical Opposition Member bashing the Government for the numerous things it has not done. It is particularly difficult to bash the Minister of State at the Department of Education and Science, Deputy Brian Lenihan, because of his agreeable nature, similar to that of his late father and aunt, who is Leader of the House. Questions arise, however, because some schools are in appalling condition, as pointed out by the INTO and parents' groups, following five years of unprecedented prosperity.
This is either a resource or management issue. I was a member of a board of management in a good school that my son attended. It was categorised as disadvantaged which proved to be an enormous advantage for the school in terms of funding. It was run by a superb principal and the parish priest was chairman of the board of management. He had the good sense to allow the principal to do his job without interfering and gave him as much support as he could, but he was in a state of perpetual frustration with the Department because of delays and uncertainty.
The parish priest had no problem providing the 15% local contribution for the school's building projects, but he had a problem servicing the overdraft for the 85% of funding that the Department was supposed to pay. It often took the Department two years to do so. One of this good, but naive, man's learning experiences during my term on the board was his discovery that the tabling of a parliamentary question in the Dáil had a remarkable effect in terms of prompting the Department to release funds for projects that had been completed. The hint of a parliamentary question produced an accelerated response. However, it should not take a Member of the Oireachtas raising such a delay in either House to have the State honour its part of a contract speedily, which involved 85% of the funding for one project in this school.
The legislation that provides for the charging of interest when bill payments are late should be extended to include boards of management of primary schools. The clear implication of the Minister of State's comments is that it is the school's fault if it is unsatisfactory, rat infested or has inadequate washing facilities. Such schools exist and the INTO has identified them. Some years ago I remember describing the real conditions in the school my daughters attended, which was also classified as disadvantaged. I do not know if the presence of my children caused that classification. They had to bring their own toilet paper to school. The response of the Government was not to wonder about schools and schooling, but to try find out which school my children attended so it could rap the authorities there on the knuckles. The board of the school, which was well run, told me it did not have the funds and could not afford to pay for toilet paper.
After five years of unprecedented prosperity, why have such problems not been remedied? It is a question of management and resources. It is not sufficient for the Department of Education and Science to say that it is essentially a matter for the school in question if prima facie breaches of health and safety legislation appear to exist. If a local school is failing in its duties in that regard, surely somebody has a responsibility to remind it of its obligations. Has the Department of Education and Science engaged in a vigorous campaign to remind the managers of primary schools of their obligations under the health and safety legislation?
There is some ambiguity on the part of the HSA regarding its role in the education sector. Some people working for the HSA imply that they do not have much responsibility in that respect, particularly for pupils. The HSA has been reported as saying that it has no role in rail safety other than in terms of the workforce of Iarnród Éireann and that the safety of the passengers is not part of its brief. Does it hold a similar view in respect of primary schools?
It is an issue of management and of reminding schools. At the very least, if parents connected with a school and the union representing teachers in that school have a legitimate concern regarding health and safety, the Department of Education and Science should tell them specifically "Your problem is with the board of the school. Deal with it." The issue is instead being fudged because boards of management in schools say it is the Department's problem and the Department says it is the schools' problem. As a result, parents and teachers end up in a state of total frustration.
It would have helped if the previous Government had not reversed the decision of the rainbow coalition to introduce regionalisation in the administration of education. If a person lives in Dingle or Castletownbere and is obliged to deal with the Department of Education and Science in Dublin, that, in itself, is an inhibition to serious dialogue. It is difficult because people, names, etc., change.
One fundamental issue concerns the priorities of the current and previous Governments. It is the apparent unwillingness to devote resources to fixing the unglamorous problems, such as putting decent surfaces on all our roads and making basic buildings available for our schoolchildren. The Government is preoccupied with prestige projects such as motorways or other matters in west Dublin to which I will not refer. I associate that kind of preoccupation with the more unsavoury Third World countries, which cannot think through what prosperity should be used for and cannot take decisions that do not have an immediate, spectacular and visible effect. If one fixes all schools to a minimum standard, people will not notice. If one resurfaces all the roads, people will not really notice. However, the building of a spectacular motorway is deemed to be great, although it may not do much good. I am concerned that the Government is engaging in decision-making that prioritises what looks good over what does good.
Martin Mansergh (Fianna Fail)
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I welcome the Minister of State, Deputy Brian Lenihan. I also welcome the Opposition motion in that it gives us the opportunity to discuss a very important issue, to which I attach the highest priority in terms of expenditure and investment decisions. The motion refers to broken promises, although the Government is only six months into a five year term. One will only be able to judge if the promises are kept towards the end of that term.
Expenditure on both primary and secondary school buildings has moved on to a totally different plane. I was looking at the Books of Estimates for the mid-1990s and expenditure amounted to between approximately £30 million to £40 million for both types of schools. Such expenditure now amounts to almost €150 million for primary school buildings and €184 million for secondary school buildings. An important priority is to maintain expenditure at that much higher level.
There is a huge backlog which obviously did not arise this year or last year or even during the term of the previous Government; it arose much earlier. It relates to school buildings from, in some cases, the lean times of the 1930s and 1940s and, in others, to the 19th century. Even schools from the 1960s or 1970s are not necessarily built to the standard of those constructed today.
I had the privilege earlier this year, and in a different capacity, of opening a new school in Swords, County Dublin, which accommodates about 100 pupils. I was absolutely astonished by the high standard of the building. There is no doubt that the building unit of the Department of Education and Science is capable of doing a magnificent job. Those of us familiar with what it did ten or 20 years ago will note that its standards have improved in the interim. However, people involved with schools that are not of the same standard as the one I opened want their schools to be upgraded to that level. Expectations have legitimately risen a good deal in recent years.
Senator Ryan argued that the country's unprecedented prosperity should have resulted in a solution to problems regarding school buildings. However, we have many problems in many different areas. Pensioners wanted a better deal and families wanted more child benefit. A very good argument was made for increasing overseas development aid. There were housing needs and infrastructural needs related to the tackling of congestion. It is inevitable that the Government cannot devote all the resources to one problem.
As my party's finance spokesperson, I feel the most important consideration in ensuring that we have resources for schools is that we consolidate our financial position and have confidence in the progress we have made and, in the difficult circumstances – both national and international – in which we find ourselves, in our economy. That is the best way to guarantee progress.
At a parliamentary party meeting, I noted that the Minister for Education and Science accepted and decided to work with the Estimate with which he had been presented. I accept that all Ministers would, perhaps, like to be given more money. We should ensure that this happens, but we should indicate that Members on all sides regard this issue as a matter of high priority. We must also ensure that we do the maximum in terms of the making of future decisions. At elections those associated with schools try to squeeze the maximum commitments and approvals from the Government. While I do not blame them, it takes time for the Government to deal with commitments and proceed with other projects.
The system is bureaucratic and time consuming. In the long term some kind of devolution in decision making will be desirable. We are criticised for being an over-centralised country. The Department should consider decentralising its basic functions to county level. Politicians will give reasons, political and otherwise, for not proceeding on that basis. For example, they will argue that with a population the size of Manchester it is better for the country if resources are centralised. However, it is worth debating the dependency culture this kind of arrangement engenders. It creates much frustration among parents, teachers and managers. It is not the most efficient system.
I agree with the criteria laid down by the Minister of State and her views on rat infestation. Is my house rat infested because the cat brings in a rat every other week? Nevertheless, some conditions must be addressed. I visited many schools in recent months and there is a big programme of work to be done. A Member of the House is president of the ICTU and a former president of the INTO. I am, therefore, confident that any new national agreement will contain a strong commitment from all the social partners to accord this the highest priority.
James Bannon (Fine Gael)
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I wish to share my time with Senator Terry.
James Bannon (Fine Gael)
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The Minister of State and several Senators from the other side of the House acknowledged the poor state of repair in schools, including rat infestation. Senator Fitzgerald had a nerve to refer to the emotive language used on this side of the House. Those who spoke had a right to vent the anger of the public, to whom the Government told untruths in the run-up to the last general election. The people are disgusted and feel badly let down by the Government's many untruths, not only in this but in other areas also. It should be ashamed of the contemptuous manner in which it treated the public.
Martin Mansergh (Fianna Fail)
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No untruths were told in County Tipperary.
James Bannon (Fine Gael)
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The cut last week in the capital allocation to schools was a blatant attack on young people. Boards of management, teachers and parents are very angry. Our clinics are full at weekends with people complaining about the condition of schools. Three weeks ago a school principal sent the pupils home because of his fears that a storm would blow over his prefabricated school.
James Bannon (Fine Gael)
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The children were sent home in the interests of safety at 2 p.m. at a time when many of their parents were at work. This is shameful. Ireland is one of the wealthiest countries in Europe, yet we have substandard school accommodation. The Government must get its act together and refurbish schools.
On the day of the Nice referendum I attended a school and remarked how cold it was. I was told it was not possible to replace a windowpane because the frame would not hold the glass. It is a disgrace that children must attend school in such conditions.
Liam Fitzgerald (Fianna Fail)
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Grant aid is available for that.
James Bannon (Fine Gael)
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Many schools are rat infested and timber structures are eaten with woodlice. The Government has condemned thousands of children to conditions of this kind. Children are a soft target. If they had votes, they would not be treated in the same way. At the next general elections 12 and 13 year old pupils will remember the way they were deceived by the Government in the run-up to the last general election. It is a sick Government that has allowed this to happen.
A dozen schools in County Longford require major refurbishment. I hope they will not be long fingered by the Government. I support the motion. The Government's decision is a blatant attack on our children and education system. It should call it a day on serving the people.
Sheila Terry (Fine Gael)
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The Minister of State will be aware of the problems affecting a number of schools in the Dublin 15 area. I, therefore, condemn the cuts to the school building programme this year. Spending on the programme is to increase by 4%, which is less than the rate of inflation in the building industry. In addition, the 1% increase in the lower rate of VAT will affect the programme. The increase will be wiped out by inflation and the additional VAT. It means that many more schools will wait longer for work to be done while those a long time on the list will have to continue waiting. The Minister of State will be aware that in the Dublin 15 area representations were made to all the general election candidates from Scoil Thomáis, Laurel Lodge and the Sacred Heart School, Huntstown, which has several prefabricated buildings. I hope they will be included in this year's programme.
How long are schools expected to remain in prefabricated accommodation? When funding is granted to new schools, many of them initially rely on prefabricated buildings to be replaced in perhaps a further five years. That does not make good economic sense. It would be better to adequately fund the schools in order that they can have a permanent structure. The Educate Together school is located in a prefabricated building, as is a school in Clonee, where I hope work will commence in the coming year.
Many schools are in a condition we should not expect our children to put up with. Some teachers conduct their classes in corridors or the principal's office. That is not a very proud record to stand over.
Brian Lenihan Jnr (Dublin West, Fianna Fail)
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I made no promises.
Sheila Terry (Fine Gael)
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I did not say the Minister of State made any promises.
Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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The Senator to continue without interruption, please.
Sheila Terry (Fine Gael)
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The Government was in office over the past five years and there have not been any great changes. We want changes. The Government's school building programme for the next five years will not address the problems. It is an absolute disgrace. I fully support the motion.
John Paul Phelan (Fine Gael)
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I welcome the Minister of State, Deputy Brian Lenihan. I am pleased to speak on this important motion. I do not wish to repeat what has been said, but suffice it to say there are huge levels of anger among the general public about cutbacks in expenditure on primary education. County Kilkenny is no exception when it comes to those levels of upset in the community.
I am fortunate to have been taught in a very progressive national school and proud to be a member of its board of management to which I was appointed two years ago. There is a lot of work done during the year to raise funds for school expenditure. Not every community is lucky enough to have such an active board of management or such good fund-raising structures in place.
I was particularly disappointed by the cutbacks announced. Schools in County Kilkenny which have been affected include Carrigeen national school in south Kilkenny on the edge of Waterford city and in an area which is booming. Before the general election the local Fianna Fáil candidate promised that an extension to the school would be granted in 2003. That will not happen now.
Church Hill national school, Cuffesgrange, County Kilkenny, was given a commitment by another Fianna Fáil candidate before the general election that its extension which it needed would materialise if he was returned to the Dáil. It went so far that the principal of the school distributed literature to the pupils requesting their parents to vote for the Fianna Fáil candidate concerned because he was the best man to deliver the extension. That was an abuse of position and pupils were used in order to gain votes.
It was proposed to merge the two existing national schools in Thomastown, County Kilkenny, and build a new school. The site had been identified and commitments were made by the previous Government that if it was returned to office, the site would be purchased and the school built. Now we are told that it will not happen. The level of outrage and anger among the general public on this issue is immense.
My colleague, Senator Terry, at the end of her contribution made a point about expenditure on temporary accommodation. Earlier this year Deputy Paul McGrath asked a parliamentary question which was answered by the Minister of State, Deputy O'Dea. It concerned the amount spent annually by the Department on temporary primary school accommodation. I was very surprised to discover that last year €6 million was spent on prefabs. In 1999 the figure was €2 million and in 2000, €4 million. It indicates a very short-term attitude which is not acceptable in this day and age. The Government should not be expending such amounts on what are short-term solutions to much more long-term and fundamental problems. It is a waste of money.
I take exception to what was said by a previous speaker. As he has left the Chamber, I will not mention his name, but he was making excuses that constituents look for commitments from their politicians before a general election. He was more or less putting the blame on boards of management in communities and saying they were somehow responsible for the backtracking by the Government on this issue. Boards of management are entitled to ask questions to ascertain when work will be done or, as we now know, not done on their schools. If a commitment is given, they are entitled to see it acted upon.
Every time I speak in the House I mention the fact that there is a lot of cynicism about politicians. When people see politicians saying one thing and doing something else, it does us all down. Strong commitments are given before elections which are not honoured afterwards. That is a disgrace. I support the motion.
Joe O'Toole (Independent)
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I am delighted to speak on the motion which I hope will become a resolution. I compliment Senator Burke for bringing it before the House. It is both important and timely. I welcome the Minister of State and wish him well on his promotion. The two issues for which he has responsibility, children and education, both tie in with the motion. It would be very fair of a Government to state, "We have no money, we made a mistake, we were wrong" and come out with its hands up on this issue. During the general election I watched the number of commitments made to school groups that their schools would be looked after. This is a short-sighted decision about a soft target. If it were not for the INTO, this would not be a national issue. The INTO co-ordinates action and ensures politicians and parents are briefed.
During the last general election in a constituency I know of a school was informed that it would not get its planned extension. It was overcrowded for years and its prefabs were very old. As there was no general purposes room in the school, even though it was very progressive, it could not do anything. The school in question is not located in the Dublin area or the Minister of State's constituency. When the Taoiseach visited the constituency, the school decided to raise the matter with him. It intended to mount a protest when he arrived. A Fianna Fáil candidate in the area went to the school principal and said that if it did, it would never get the extension built. That was conveyed to the parent who was secretary of the school parents' committee. The school principal rang me – at that stage I was still in INTO – and I said that cannot be, a candidate would not threaten. I told him to ring the candidate. He did so and the candidate said exactly the same thing. As a result, they did not carry out their protest when the Taoiseach was there. They were afraid.
This happened in Ireland in 2002. In the general election Fine Gael lost a seat in that constituency and Fianna Fáil won an extra seat. I am not saying that the two matters are related, but it is appalling. Of all the parties in the State, Fianna Fáil would be strongly supportive of the right to free expression. The Minister of State, Deputy Lenihan, would have as strong a view as myself on it and would defend it to the limit. We might disagree with people arguing with us, but we would defend their right to say it. I thought it was so completely wrong that that should happen in an age when we are trying to create a questioning, challenging new generation. That is an anecdote to prove a point about the frustration people are experiencing throughout the country on this issue.
The irony is that the school curriculum at primary level is the most progressive in Europe. There is no doubt about that. It is the only country, as the Minister of State will be aware, where the parents, the teachers' organisation, the employers' organisation, the Department inspectorate and the Department planners sat down and organised and agreed a curriculum. The curriculum was agreed by all parties the day it was published. It had never happened previously in any country in Europe. There are Ministers for Education around Europe who would give one of their fingers to get that kind of co-operation and support.
There are many schools in rural areas which have been badly run down in many ways. What tends to happen is that parents in that area say they will send their child to the much more comfortable school in the town nearby. That is going on all the time and it is actually supporting the decline of rural communities.
What is going on is wrong. We did this previously in 1987 and it took us years to pull back. The then Minister, a certain Deputy O'Rourke, went to great pains in 1988 or 1989 to double the building programme in order to get us back on track. It took about five or six years to deal with the schools that had lost out in the two-year cutback. We were just about getting there, and just in a position where the Department of Education and Science was saying there were no more lists of schools, and now this has happened. It is wrong. It is regressive. It presents us as a Third World country in modern Europe. It is anathema to those of us who participated in the European debate. It is appallingly embarrassing to show European colleagues the state of some of the schools. There are no other words to describe it.
There are fundamental issues here. This was handled very badly during the election and I agree completely that this gives a very bad impression of politics. It was used politically and then abused politically. I am not standing on moral high ground here. I just think that is wrong and, irrespective of who was in Government, I would still say so. The issue should not be used that way.
This is something which we always set out to do right and we have failed. This is a step backwards and a generation will suffer. They will never be in fourth class, fifth class or whichever class again. By pulling it back in the way the Government has done it we are losing out. The reason for this country's revolution in economic terms over the past ten years has as much to do with all that has come out of the education system as anything else and now we are losing out badly.
I know I have gone over my time and I apologise for doing so. I support the motion. I am delighted to have had an opportunity to contribute to it. I do not want people to come back at me, defending against the criticisms I made. I have said what needs to be said. I hope that the Government will change its view on this or at the very least give a commitment that the next budget will put right in spades what they have put wrong this time.
Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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I am happy to say a few words on this matter and, indeed, to follow the contribution of Senator O'Toole. No doubt we could all do with a great deal more money for all sorts of projects. That is the way the world goes. The allocation for 2003 is €147 million, a considerable amount of money. There is no point in saying that there will not be a penny spent on primary schools and many schools will lack this and that.
I fully understand that the list of schools which need to be addressed is long and that the amount of money concerned will not satisfy all who wish to be considered under this allocation in 2003. Notwithstanding that, the allocation of €147 million is considerable. It will enable more inroads to be made on the primary school building projects.
I note with interest that the Department is putting all its material on the website so that every school can see where it is on the list. The Taoiseach stated in the Dáil the other day that there would be no more queue jumping for schools which are seeking an allocation. That is a sound idea. Queue jumping leads to jealousy between schools because some say they are getting funding and others are not, and pupils move to the school they think is better served.
I remember distinctly that in 1988 – Senator John Paul Phelan and those Senators who are really young may well say that it is a long time ago – I had £12 million for primary schools.
Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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No, Deputy Enda Kenny spent it all in 1987 before I got my hand on it.
Joe McHughMary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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Was he not right? When I went into the Department the cupboard was bare anyway.
I know that many schools, particularly at second level, had the flat roofs and the poorly constructed buildings of the late 1970s. They were a disgrace because problems developed within ten years and huge maintenance money has now to be spent, either on their complete refurbishment or reconstruction.
I remember when we embarked on this because, as Senator O'Toole will also remember, times were pretty bad. When I hear people talking about cutbacks now, I say that they do not know real cutbacks. We would say to the schools that we would give so much money towards four properly built classrooms, not flat-roofed ones, and they could get their own architect. Several parents have written to me over the years saying they have our four really good classrooms, which suffice and which have facilitated great work.
I strongly resent the huge fees paid to architects. I do not care if there are architects here or in the public gallery.
Frank FeighanMary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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I strongly resent the percentage of money which is given to professional surveyors, architects, second teams of architects, etc. It takes a huge amount of money out of the budget for primary school building and in many cases good jobs can be done neatly and well with much less expenditure. There is no need for that kind of money to be spent. It is different when building science laboratories, technical drawing rooms and domestic science rooms, which require special accommodation and equipment. That is quite understandable. The accommodation is simpler and much easier to build in primary schools, but devoting lots of money to huge teams of architects is counter-productive and eats into the primary school budget. The team at the Department of Education and Science now, headed by the Minister, Deputy Noel Dempsey, and also comprising the Ministers of State, Deputies Síle de Valera and Brian Lenihan, will, together with Department officials, do its very best with the budget available for 2003.
Having hopefully put matters on an even keel, they will then work towards a five-year budget. This is a very good idea because when work starts on schools, much of the budget for next year is actually for the final payment on schools started in the current year. It is difficult, therefore, to quantify how many school projects can be financed from that sum of money. If a five-year rolling budget and accompanying programme can be achieved, there will hopefully be an eventual end in sight for what in many cases are inferior primary school buildings.
Michael Finucane (Fine Gael)
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I attended a very pleasant event last week in Senator Brennan's territory of Adare for the official opening of an extension to Shauntrade school—
Michael Finucane (Fine Gael)
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It is. If you want a contrast, just go across to the other side of Adare to the St. Nicholas school, which is located in a building over 600 years old. The then Minister for Education and Science, Deputy Martin, promised them a new school in 1999 but they are still waiting. I see from the list on the Department's website that the school has not even got to the architectural planning stage. The 70-plus pupils deserve the chance of a new building because the structure they are in is primitive. That is symptomatic of many schools around the country.
The Minister for Finance, Deputy McCreevy, deserves at this stage the title Mac the Knife. The title used to be applied to another Minister years ago. The amount of money earmarked for capital expenditure on schools this year is static. If we take construction inflation into consideration in addition to general inflation, there is a cut of 10%. The school building unit of the Department does tremendous work with limited resources, but in many cases it is merely applying a sticking plaster in trying to remedy defects within existing schools. Thousands of children are going into school wearing their overcoats in terrible conditions in the winter. It is a shocking indictment, considering the excessive expenditure of the past few years, that those circumstances exist. Now we are in the situation of having to claw back revenue.
What is the future for many of those schools? We recently had published on the Department website the entire list of schools at different stages of architectural planning and so on. Some schools are not even on the list. Like other Senators, I could provide a list of these schools in my own county. It is totally unfair, and there remains much to do.
The capitation grant is, I think, €101 per pupil for primary schools and €230 for second level schools. Much of the funding for schools is now raised locally. There has been a huge increase in the cost of insurance and heating oil. In many cases very good committees are getting together and trying to raise funds, but many of them are finding it more difficult as time goes on.
This motion is very timely. A debate on the same subject is taking place this evening in Dáil Éireann. The Minister for Education and Science, Deputy Noel Dempsey, has been telling that House about all the fine things the Government has done. If the Government did not keep harping back to 20 years ago, when my party was in power, I do not know what it would have to talk about. It keeps harping back to the times of 1983-1987 and what the Fine Gael-Labour coalition did in different circumstances.
Michael Finucane (Fine Gael)
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I know the Senator would not, but I follow what is happening in the other House also. I urge the Minister of State – and I am sure Senator Brennan would encourage him also – to do something about St. Nicholas school in Adare and get the pupils out of the present primitive structure.
Ulick Burke (Fine Gael)
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I thank the Ministers of State, Deputies Brian Lenihan and Síle de Valera, for their presence. I thank my colleagues in the Fine Gael Party and the other Senators who spoke. It is an important debate and I hope that by moving this motion we can in some way help to make progress in what is an appalling situation for children and parents also.
The Minister of State, Deputy Síle de Valera, talked about giving children an even break and about the appointment of 200 additional teachers, particularly in disadvantaged areas. I remind the Minister, whether she is aware of it or not, that between 30,000 and 40,000 pupils at national school level are being taught by untrained teachers. It is an unbelievable figure. It is a disaster for so many that they will go through some of the most important years in their education being taught by untrained teachers. I do not know what the Minister of State or the Minister, Deputy Noel Dempsey, intend to do about that. We know all about the improvements he listed.
It was a pity that the Minister of State, Deputy de Valera, did not address the motion before the House. She ignored it. The only aspect she mentioned was the increased amount of money provided during the good times by the last Government. The sad reality is that we have a core base of schools in a deplorable condition in which we expect our children to be taught and our teachers to teach. The conditions are unbelievable. They have been listed many times before.
Senator O'Toole pointed out that there are 40 schools in need of repair in County Galway. Promises were made in the run up to the last election. I mentioned, in the absence of the Leader of the House, what her colleague, Deputy Cassidy, did by way of promoting himself prior to the election. I am sure the Leader of the House was particularly glad that was put on the record.
Ulick Burke (Fine Gael)
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That type of activity was duplicated so many times around the country, and we were all victims of that deception. We do not want the Minister of State simply telling us and the parents that she has a list of 400 schools on a website. We want the Minister of State to be full and frank with the boards of management of schools and to give them some guidelines as to when work will start. Nothing else will satisfy people and it is the least the Government can do in the immediate future.
I also urge at least that the funding of €147 million be increased to something like €250 million so that work on the core disaster areas of about 40 national schools will be allowed to go to tender straight away. The schools have been identified, but the sad reality is that students are still attending them.
The Minister of State clearly laid blame tonight on the boards of management for their inactivity. She told them to familiarise themselves with the new manual she has produced dealing with the patch and mend work that will take place in schools and how best to utilise the funding, which is no more than crumbs falling from the table. There is a new manual, but the Leader of the House is unaware of it. The guidelines are to be brought to every board of management, each of which will be free to discuss how it can patch and mend its school. This reminds me of the crisis some years ago when new machines were provided to patch and tar the roads. Now there will be a parallel machine to patch and mend schools. If our response to the need to give children an even break is that they must continue to receive their education in these schools, the Government will stand indicted.
Amendment put.
The Seanad divided: Tá, 30; Níl, 19.
Tá
Bohan, Eddie.
Brady, Cyprian.
Brennan, Michael.
Callanan, Peter.
Cox, Margaret.
Daly, Brendan.
Dardis, John.
Dooley, Timmy.
Feeney, Geraldine.
Fitzgerald, Liam.
Glynn, Camillus.
Hanafin, John.
Kenneally, Brendan.
Kett, Tony.
Kitt, Michael P.
Leyden, Terry.
Lydon, Don.
MacSharry, Marc.
Mansergh, Martin.
Minihan, John.
Mooney, Paschal C.
Moylan, Pat.
O'Brien, Francis.
O'Rourke, Mary.
Ó Murchú, Labhrás.
Ormonde, Ann.
Scanlon, Eamon.
Walsh, Jim.
Walsh, Kate.
Wilson, Diarmuid.