Seanad debates

Thursday, 28 November 2002

Photo of Mary O'RourkeMary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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Today's Order of Business is No. 1, the British-Irish Agreement (Amendment) Bill, 2002 – all Stages, with contributions of spokespersons to be not more than 15 minutes and other speakers ten minutes and on which Members may share time, to conclude not later than 4 p.m.; and No. 2, motion for earlier signature of the British-Irish Agreement (Amendment) Bill, 2002, to be taken without debate at the conclusion of No. 1.

Photo of Brian HayesBrian Hayes (Fine Gael)
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We do not object to the Order of Business. We understand the importance of this Bill to the Northern peace process and fully support it. Obviously we will comment on it. Will the Leader provide time at the earliest opportunity for Members to contribute on the report on the national spatial strategy published by the Government today? This is a chance for us to get things right for the next 50 to 100 years. Many bad decisions were taken in the 1960s and 1970s because we did not have this centralised planning to enable us to organise our State in an efficient and sustainable way. When will the Leader make time available for this debate because I am sure colleagues on all sides would like to contribute?

We had an excellent debate last night on a motion tabled by the Independent group concerning Ireland Aid. Three days ago a most disturbing report came from the United Nations in London concerning the number of people in the world suffering from AIDS. I understand 42 million people are living with AIDS, most of them in Third World countries. This year alone 5 million people will contract the disease in Africa. The European Union and the United Nations have a huge responsibility to respond to this crisis. While the debate last night was a first shot in the debate on this issue, we have a responsibility to continue the debate.

Would it be possible for the Minister of State with responsibility for European affairs, Deputy Roche, to come to the House within the next couple of weeks to outline the action the Government is taking, with its European colleagues, to pursue this issue and to put pressure on the drugs companies to provide much needed medicine to stave off the problem of AIDS in Africa? I understand that in some villages in Africa, people are selected to receive these life saving drugs while others are forgotten about. Members of the European Union have a responsibility to act collectively on this issue. A short debate with the Minister of State, Deputy Roche, to set out the agenda of work in this area would be useful at some point in the future.

Photo of Joe O'TooleJoe O'Toole (Independent)
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Decisions to be taken this week will be of huge significance for the Ireland of the future. One of those concerns the discussion on fisheries taking place in Brussels this week. We had a debate on that issue in recent weeks and Members showed much interest and commitment and a lot of issues were raised. I would like the Government to know that matters raised in that debate are still important in this House. As far as we are concerned, a wrong decision taken in Brussels, which even maintains the current position, will destroy the Irish fishing industry. I would like that to be communicated to the Government. Jobs are at stake as are progress and industrialisation.

The other issue is the spatial strategy report. I do not know why we must wait a week to debate it. We know the issues and we could discuss the report this afternoon. The report will be reported on and people will take an interest in it this week. It will be reported on in next Monday's local newspapers which will contain the views of elected representatives, including Members of this House. The report will produce a scheme which will plot the course and shape of rural Ireland, in particular, in the future. I worry that while the debate on gateways, hubs and so on takes place, the broad masses of Ireland will be left untouched. Rural areas, which are not towns, main provincial centres or urban areas of cities, will simply be forgotten. That is the way policy is driven. We should make a clear distinction between infrastructure needs and people needs and one should not move irrespective of the other. I would like the spatial strategy to look at the needs of people who live up hill and down dale, in remote areas, in rural communities and in places which need to be represented. We should have that debate today.

Photo of Brendan RyanBrendan Ryan (Labour)
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I fully support Senator O'Toole's request for a debate on the national spatial plan. This would be very usefully debated today. It is important to remember that many Members of this House are elected local representatives serving on county councils or city councils. They therefore have a particular reason to be concerned about issues like this.

A spatial plan is of course extremely important, but it pre-supposes an infrastructure to deal with it. It is therefore very disturbing to see reports in this morning's newspapers of warnings that we may have an electricity shortage in three or four years. The one company capable of building power stations – the ESB – will not be allowed to build them. The private sector keeps moaning that electricity is not dear enough here to enable them to make enough money to build power stations. For some daft ideological reason the people of Ireland are to be penalised because of the efficiency of the ESB. The possibility of an electricity shortage – to add to the fact that we are bottom of the league in broadband, motorways and rail transport – would make a mockery of a spatial plan. We need a serious debate in this House about how to meet the infrastructural needs that underlie both economic development and the spatial plan.

A headline in today's edition of The Irish Times attributes to farmers a great concern that benchmarking would bankrupt the economy. Farmers should look after themselves and should leave public servants alone. They have a capacity for bashing public servants that is emulated by Senator Ross—

Photo of Shane RossShane Ross (Independent)
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Or by public servants bashing farmers.

Photo of Brendan RyanBrendan Ryan (Labour)
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No, the public sector, like the whole trade union movement—

Photo of Shane RossShane Ross (Independent)
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The Senator does not need any farmer's votes.

Photo of Brendan RyanBrendan Ryan (Labour)
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The public sector, like the whole trade union movement, has always supported the vital interests of agriculture. The reverse is not the case and it is time the farmers learnt that we live in a mutually dependent society—

Photo of Shane RossShane Ross (Independent)
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Farmer bashing. Another cheap shot from the left.

Photo of Brendan RyanBrendan Ryan (Labour)
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They should lay off the public sector.

Photo of Terry LeydenTerry Leyden (Fianna Fail)
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I would like a debate next week on the spatial plan. It is with deep concern that we in the Roscommon, Longford and Leitrim region find that the area does not contain any hub town or town targeted for major development. I want to see exactly what implications this will have for rural towns. Does it mean that the IDA and Enterprise Ireland will be directed now not to bring industry to those towns? We must find out this information. It is very important that we discuss this issue next week.

Our region has been neglected for some time. Is this now a signal that this is the policy to be proceeded with? Roscommon, Longford and Leitrim are being excluded from this strategy. The real litmus test will be decentralisation. We must ensure the towns of this region are included in the decentralisation programme.

Jim Higgins (Fine Gael)
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I appeal for a debate on an issue touched upon by Senator Brendan Ryan, and it should not be taken as part of the debate on spatial planning. I refer to the dire warning issued yesterday by the managing director of Eirgrid, Ciaran O'Brien, that unless a new power station is built by 2005 there will be serious outages and blackouts and an electricity deficiency of 20%. There are no plans to build a new power station. I ask for an immediate debate on this issue because it will undermine the entire economy and frighten off foreign investment, not to mention the fact that it will spoil people's viewing of "Eastenders" or "Coronation Street".

Photo of Tony KettTony Kett (Fianna Fail)
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I know it is highly unlikely we will have the Minister for Health and Children or the Minister for Finance in this House before budget day. I therefore ask the Leader to convey to both Ministers the real need for a focus on the transformation that has taken place in the area of financing disability. I ask the Leader to assist me in ensuring that that focus is not lost and that even in bad times, neither Minister will undo the good work that has been done in that regard. Statistics have shown that disability and poverty go hand in hand and that most families headed by a disabled person are more or less on the poverty line. It is a very good area for us to continue to do good work, and I hope the Leader can assist me in that regard.

Photo of David NorrisDavid Norris (Independent)
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I support the remarks of Senator Joe O'Toole about the importance of the negotiations taking place in Brussels about the fishing industry, but I would like to go a little further. Senator O'Toole talked about the potential destruction of the fishing industry. It is not just the fishing industry that is at stake, however. If we are not careful and allow the Spanish trawlers in as they wish it will destroy the fish stocks, and the fishing industry could never come back from that. It is as serious as that. This House should send a strong message of support to our Minister in these discussions.

I ask the Leader for a discussion on the growth of drink-related problems in this country. When I started raising this issue four or five years ago I was laughed out of court, even in this House. I think we all realise know how serious this matter is. At weekends, 50% of admissions into accident and emergency units in Dublin hospitals, and I think throughout the country, are drink-related. That is an enormous waste of our hospital's skills. Many of these people are young women, who were not traditionally rendered unconscious at weekends by taking too much drink. Then there are all the unprovoked street attacks.

I will not continue, a Chathaoirligh, because I see you beginning to look severe, but it is time we took this matter on board in this House because there is a very strong lobby for the licensed vintners and the drinks industry generally. There is to be a very interesting programme on RTÉ television this evening. We should all try to see it if we can and, perhaps in the light of that, have a debate in the next couple of weeks.

Photo of Michael KittMichael Kitt (Fianna Fail)
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I welcome the call for a debate on the national spatial strategy. There is, by and large, good news for what is known as the BMW region in the strategy. However, I find it hard to understand why, when the Government is talking about improved services and improved infrastructure in rural Ireland, Iarnród Éireann is at the same time dismantling part of the railway line at Athenry and disconnecting signals. I question Iarnród Éireann's commitment to the spatial strategy and it is important that we have a debate as soon as possible.

Kathleen O'Meara (Labour)
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I also support the call for a very early debate on the national spatial plan, for two reasons in particular. The first is to ask the Minister whether the spatial plan is cast in stone now that it has been published. Is there any possibility of feedback, not only from areas that are chosen for hubs and gateways but also from areas that are not chosen? It will have severe implications for areas which will perceive themselves – and be perceived by industry – as effectively being left out of future development. There is also the wider context of necessary infrastructure – electricity, roads and also rail, which we know is a major issue for many Members of this House.

I support the call by Senator Norris for a debate on the abuse of alcohol, and in particular on reviewing the licensing laws. We have extended the licensing hours in the past few years but it is time to review that decision and question whether it was the right thing to do.

John Minihan (Progressive Democrats)
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I raise a recent report by the skills and initiative unit of the Department of Education and Science on the transition year at second level. Many people have been concerned for some time about whether it is working, reaching its ideals or achieving what it was designed to do. This report indicates that it is not and that it should be revisited.

Previous speakers have spoken about under age drinking, and evidence would suggest that this is the time when people really start on that downward curve. The introduction of people to the workforce at that age is also growing and disrupting studies. This is no longer only talk. The evidence exists in the form of a report. The responsibility falls on us to debate that report in full in the presence of the Minister for Education and Science. I hope the Leader will arrange for us to do that in the near future.

Photo of James BannonJames Bannon (Fine Gael)
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I also would welcome a debate on the national spatial document even though it is three years too late. It should be debated in conjunction with the national development plan, which is currently in a shambles because of recent Government cutbacks. The announcement this morning is a shocking blow to the people of my county, County Longford, as Senator Leyden said. This is the third blow to Longford. The national gas route was relocated to south Athlone. The location of Cardinal Health in Longford, which promised to create 1,300 jobs, was deferred and now we have no growth status for County Longford. This is a shocking blow. The Government depended on Longford to elect two Government TDs. As Senator Leyden said, Longford and Roscommon have been neglected and let down by the Government. This is a shame. As in the case of the Nice treaty, the Government show goes back to the people on this one.

Photo of Marc MacSharryMarc MacSharry (Fianna Fail)
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I join Senators Norris and O'Toole in calling for an urgent debate on fisheries. We all send messages of support to the Minister for Communication, Marine and Natural Resources, Deputy Dermot Ahern, at this critical time when quotas are being determined. As they will determined this side of Christmas, I ask the Leader if such a debate can be held now or as soon as possible.

I also ask the Leader to ask the appropriate Minister – I do not know whether it is the Minister for Health and Children or the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform or whether this matter comes under the licensing laws – to take up the matter of spiking the drinks of young people, girls in particular, when they are in pubs and nightclubs. This is a very serious matter and such incidents are a regular occurrence. Many such cases go unreported. I personally know of the daughters of two families who had their drinks spiked as a result of which one was the subject of a sexual assault and the other the subject of an assault. This is a very serious issue and I would appreciate if something could be done to address it.

Photo of Shane RossShane Ross (Independent)
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Will the Leader consider having a debate on a controversial issue which relates to an area in which she is an expert, that is, the future of our semi-State bodies? In such a debate, we should ask why and for how much longer we can allow the boards of semi-State bodies to be politically appointed. I am glad the Chair is in a benign mood this morning. A controversy arose in the past week, which has been really brought about by the fact that there are political nominees on the board of Aer Rianta. Without being rude to such people, those who go to board meetings of Aer Rianta must think they are at Fianna Fáil cumann meetings. This is a serious difficulty which affects the boards of all our semi-State companies. It is a difficulty which all parties, including the Labour Party, could address which would greatly benefit all of us.

Photo of Camillus GlynnCamillus Glynn (Fianna Fail)
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I welcome the publication of the spatial strategy document especially as it refers to the midland towns, including my own.

I also support the remarks of Senator MacSharry about the spiking of drinks. I am sure everyone has observed that most young people in public houses walk around with their thumb over the neck of a bottle. That is done for obvious reasons.

I ask the Leader to ask the Minister for the Environment and Local Government to come to this House to discuss the management of housing estates. It has been brought to my notice more than once that residents of certain housing estates are prisoners in their own homes due to the activities of young thugs. There is serious difficulty pertaining to this matter. I would welcome an early debate on it. I will not say anything more on this now, but I will have plenty to say when we come to debate it.

Photo of Michael McCarthyMichael McCarthy (Labour)
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I wish to raise two issues. I ask the Leader to request the presence of the Minister of State at the Department of Finance, Deputy Parlon, to discuss immediately what plans he has to address flood prevention. He made an announcement yesterday regarding flood relief but it is critical that he comes in here to discuss flood prevention. Serious flood damage has been caused to homeowners and businesses in Cork again this week. It is only a week since such an flooding incident occurred.

In the context of a potential debate on the licensing laws, it may be opportune during such a debate to also debate the matter of bouncers and security personnel at nightclubs. Many of the incidents that happen at the doors of nightclubs are drink related.

Photo of Timmy DooleyTimmy Dooley (Fianna Fail)
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I join my colleagues in welcoming the spatial strategy. Is there a role for the Seanad in ensuring that the spatial strategy is adhered to by the Departments? The spatial strategy sets out the framework for development, particularly along the western corridor and in areas of Ireland that have not been developed to date. It is vital that Departments adhere to the strategy going forward. There is a role in monitoring the work of the Departments in that regard. I would like to hear the Leader's comments.

Photo of Joe McHughJoe McHugh (Fine Gael)
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I have two jobs for the Leader this morning; it will be a busy one for her. I would like her to make representations on behalf of the textile and clothing industry to the Government's spokesperson on Europe, the Minister of State at the Department of Foreign Affairs, Deputy Roche, and ask him to initiate anti-dumping measures against Turkish imports with the European Commission. We have 14,000 jobs in the textile and clothing industry and we must consolidate our position. Naturally an expansionary policy is not being initiated, but we must consolidate what we have.

I have been in touch with a few members of the Irish diaspora who suggest that, given that we do not have an international election due to logistical problems which would enable members of the disapora to have a vote, consideration should be given to maybe not three but at least one of the Taoiseach's nominees being a nominee of the diaspora.

Photo of Mary O'RourkeMary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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I thank Senator McHugh for those tasks he gave me.

Senator Brian Hayes correctly demanded time to discuss the spatial strategy. He also requested that as a result of the debate last night, which was very constructive, we should ask the Minister of State at the Department of Foreign Affairs, Deputy Roche, to come to the House to discuss how other European countries could be galvanised to draw up a coherent plan to help deal with the burgeoning AIDS epidemic.

Senator O'Toole talked about fisheries. While a message of support was sent from the Seanad yesterday to the Minister for Communications, Marine and Natural Resources, Deputy Dermot Ahern, the Senator correctly called for a debate on the matter. He also called for a debate on the spatial strategy this afternoon. While we would all like that I have not spoken to the Minister for the Environment and Local Government, Deputy Cullen, to ascertain if he would free to come to this House this afternoon. I am sure we will have votes and pass motions, but this request has now been sprung on me. I do not know if the Minister will free or if many of the rural Senators, who are greatly exercised about this issue, will be in the House. It is easy to demand, but whether the Minister will be available to come to the House is another matter.

Photo of Joe O'TooleJoe O'Toole (Independent)
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We can have a discussion without the Minister being present.

Photo of Mary O'RourkeMary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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It would be a bit barren.

Photo of Joe O'TooleJoe O'Toole (Independent)
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We would have a response for him.

Photo of Mary O'RourkeMary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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Senator Ryan also called for a debate on the spatial strategy. He referred to ESB shortages, which I saw reported on television last night. He spoke about the absurdity of Europe not allowing the ESB to build more power stations when the private sector has indicated that it cannot come in until the price range is more attractive.

The Senator also brought up the subject of farmers bashing benchmarking. It is hard enough to get all that out. One would not want to be out very late. While I read the article, I did not go into it in depth. Senator Ross, on cue, shouted over to the Senator. I will come to him.

(Interruptions.)

Photo of Mary O'RourkeMary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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I mean it.

Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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Please allow the Leader to reply.

Photo of Mary O'RourkeMary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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I mean I will come to the point made by Senator Ross.

Senator Leyden spoke about the national spatial strategy and the fact that counties Roscommon, Longford and Leitrim had been omitted from it. I noted that this point was echoed later. Members were most vociferous about it this morning.

Senator Higgins referred to Eirgrid, about which I had many a spat in the Dáil. They were only sham warnings while this appears to be a very real one about outages. We need to get the relevant Minister in here to discuss the matter, in this case, Deputy Dermot Ahern,

Senator Kett asked if I would work with him to ensure financing for areas of disability would be forthcoming. I would be very glad to do so.

Senator Norris spoke of the serious state of the fishing industry. The Minister, Deputy Dermot Ahern, gave no hostages to fortune when he spoke last night. He was quite plain about the sober future of the industry. While messages to him may be heartening, they are no substitute for an actual discussion. I will seek to have him attend a debate on the matter.

Senator Norris also referred to drink related problems, a matter also raised by other Members. It is a huge issue. There is no point in saying anything else. It impacts on health, education and work patterns. For many young people it is not a case of going out to have a drink and a chat, which is what used to happen. Young people now go out to get drunk. This is a very dangerous development.

Senator Kitt spoke about the national spatial strategy and the need for railways. When we put forward the notion of a study of railways in March and April, it was to include references to the spatial strategy. The report is due to appear next January. I hope that will be done. Senator O'Meara also referred to the spatial strategy and railways.

Another review of licensing laws will have to take place. I did not agree with the review when it came out. We were all asked to give our opinion in writing to the Minister, which I did, and I am sure everybody else did also. I cannot understand how staying out until 1.30 a.m. or 2 a.m. does anything for anyone. Even the youngest and most vibrant of people must feel its effects. The vintners lobby will probably knock me over the head for this view. It is not that I do not take a drink, lest anyone think I am a holy Molly.

Photo of James BannonJames Bannon (Fine Gael)
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A holy Mary.

Photo of Mary O'RourkeMary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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A holy Mary, yes.

Photo of Brian HayesBrian Hayes (Fine Gael)
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Who would suggest such a thing?

Photo of Mary O'RourkeMary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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I am not a bit. I am well able to take a drink. Senator Minihan spoke about transition year. I saw the report in a newspaper. It is a very good idea.

Photo of Brendan RyanBrendan Ryan (Labour)
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Hear, hear.

Photo of Mary O'RourkeMary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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It would be useful if the Minister came to discuss it. It is for each school to work out its own programme for transition year. A debate on the matter would be a very good idea.

Senator Bannon referred to the spatial plan for counties Longford, Roscommon and Leitrim. He also called for a debate on the linked area of the national development plan. That is a sensible idea.

Senator McSharry called for a debate on the fishing industry. He also referred to the phenomenon of women having their drinks spiked, clearly with a further objective in mind. This is a very anti-feminist move and an unwelcome development.

Senator Ross wants to have non-political appointments to semi-State boards, an issue he has addressed in his newspaper column, to great effect, in recent years. If it was an all-round agreement, it might work.

Photo of Joe O'TooleJoe O'Toole (Independent)
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It could be put to a committee of the Houses.

Photo of Mary O'RourkeMary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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It is fine in principle, but who can say if it would happen in practice, even if it were adopted? I am not sure if it is Senator Ross's idea to ban everyone who is a member of a political party. I do not know anyone who is not politically motivated in one direction or another.

Photo of Joe O'TooleJoe O'Toole (Independent)
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The five of us here.

Photo of Mary O'RourkeMary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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The five Independent Senators. I have my doubts.

Photo of Shane RossShane Ross (Independent)
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We could sit on the board of Aer Rianta.

Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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Please allow the Leader to reply without interruption.

Photo of Shane RossShane Ross (Independent)
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There are two vacancies on the board of Aer Rianta.

Photo of Mary O'RourkeMary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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Senator Ross has had a very chequered political career.

Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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Please allow the Leader to reply.

Photo of Mary O'RourkeMary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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Senator Glynn welcomes the national spatial strategy and why would he not do so with its references to midlands towns such as Athlone, Mullingar and Tullamore? Athlone is at the centre of the three. He requests that the issue of the management of housing estates be discussed. That is a county council matter rather than a national one. We will be told very smartly that we are interfering too much. While I agree that it is an issue, it is a local one.

Photo of Brian HayesBrian Hayes (Fine Gael)
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The Leader is right.

Photo of Mary O'RourkeMary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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Senator McCarthy echoes a call made very strongly yesterday by Senator Minihan to invite the Minister of State, Deputy Parlon, to address the House on the flooding issue. I would welcome this and will make inquiries to his office in that regard. I will ask also Senator Minihan to impress upon him that he should come. Senator McCarthy also raised the issue of the licensing laws.

Photo of Michael McCarthyMichael McCarthy (Labour)
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It was in conjunction with security personnel and bouncers.

Photo of Mary O'RourkeMary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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That is a separate matter entirely. There is legislation being put through on bouncers.

Jim Higgins (Fine Gael)
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It is currently going through the Dáil.

Photo of Mary O'RourkeMary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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That is right. While the matter of security personnel is separate, I accept the Senator's point in regard to licensing laws.

Senator Dooley inquired if the House could have a monitoring committee on adherence to the national spatial strategy and its implementation. That is a sound idea. Perhaps we could have a monthly debate on the matter.

Senator McHugh raised the matter of Turkish imports, a matter which would fall within the remit of the Tánaiste and Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment, rather than the Minister of State with responsibility for European Affairs, Deputy Roche. Did the Senator speak in the emigration debate last night?

Photo of Joe McHughJoe McHugh (Fine Gael)
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No. I spoke about this issue three weeks ago.

Photo of Mary O'RourkeMary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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It was a very good debate last night.

Photo of Brian HayesBrian Hayes (Fine Gael)
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I spoke on his behalf. Other groups were not present.

Order of Business agreed to.