Seanad debates
Wednesday, 20 November 2002
Order of Business.
Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
The Order of Business is No. 1, Digital Hub Development Agency Bill, 2002 – Committee Stage (resumed), to conclude no later than 1.30 p.m.; No. 2, European Communities (Amendment) Bill, 2002 – All Stages to be taken today; No. 3, statements on Northern Ireland, to be attended by the Taoiseach, to be taken at 5 p.m. and conclude at 6 p.m; No. 9, motion No. 16 re the abolition of the first-time buyer's grant, to be taken from 6 p.m. to 8 p.m. and business, if not previously concluded, to resume thereafter.
Brian Hayes (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
As she prepares for the Order of Business tomorrow, is the Leader aware of the provisional arrangement to hold a debate on the Estimates at 3.30 p.m?
Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
That is a mistake. I regret very much that the House was notified of an incorrect time as a result of human error. The debate on the Estimates will take place between 1.30 p.m. and 3.30 p.m. tomorrow.
Brian Hayes (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
That is a significant improvement and I am glad of the clarification. I have a number of questions to put to the Leader regarding the Estimates. In relation to the Labour Party motion, which my party fully endorses, will the Government side permit a free vote given the number of backbenchers who support the sentiments expressed in it?
Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
We have a voice in the parliamentary party.
Brian Hayes (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I assure the Leader that there will be a free vote on this side of the House.
David Norris (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I will be voting with the Government.
A Government decision taken two months before the recent Estimates made provision for a significant increase in ministerial salaries and pension provisions. Does the Leader believe it is incumbent on the Government to backtrack on this given the savage cuts proposed in the Estimates, the most insignificant of which is the first-time buyer's grant? The more significant issue is the proposed €2 billion reduction in the Estimates for public services. Does she not believe the Government has a moral responsibility to practise what it preaches and renege on the quite sizeable increase in its own salaries and pensions announced eight weeks prior to the publication of the Book of Estimates?
David Norris (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Has the Government any plans to ask the European Union to ensure that internationally there are regulations governing the kind of craft that ply through EU waters? I am thinking, in particular, of the disaster of the Prestige, a most unfortunate name for a boat. This type of incident has happened previously on several occasions. It is not acceptable that there should be this kind of international envelope of registration, as a result of which we do not know who owns the boat or what safety regulations are in place. This will have a huge impact on Spanish fishing. The Spanish were very irresponsible in insisting that the boat be pushed further out to sea. It has created a disaster in their own waters and they will now be more insistent in trying to get into our waters to rape the fish from our stocks that they neglected.
I ask you, a Chathaoirligh, to look, through the relevant committee, at the dictatorial way in which the Ceann Comhairle possesses the meeting room downstairs. Members in the Engineering Block, in particular, have no place where they can meet people in wheelchairs.
Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Accommodation is not a matter for the floor of this House.
David Norris (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context
It should be. Senators are very aggrieved.
I want to raise two other matters, one of which was raised last week by Senator O'Toole, that is, the question of the monitors in the House. He queried the reason they were in place. There was a humorous play on it. It would be very helpful if the names of Senators were indicated as it would be of enormous help in identifying new Members, of whom there is such an enormous influx. I read in The Irish Times last week of a Senator "Marie, say yes," an Independent Senator who spoke at some length. I would like to meet the lady. It does not sound from her surname that she is an Independent at all. It sounds as if she is a Taoiseach's nominee.
I want to follow up on the excellent inquiry of Senator Mansergh last week and ask the Leader if there has been any further development in the matter which relates to the threat by republicans to the lives of workmen reinstating the monument erected by the loyal citizens of Kingstown in commemoration of a visit by her late Imperial Majesty, Queen Victoria. Is there an up-date on the issue?
Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
The issue of the monitors will be raised with the broadcasting unit.
Derek McDowell (Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I endorse the sentiments expressed by the leader of the Fine Gael group. We look forward to the debate on the first-time house buyer's grant this evening. I agree also that it is probably the most eye catching and headline catching of a number of very serious cuts.
One issue to which we should direct our attention, on which I ask the Leader to organise a debate, is the effect of freezing overseas development aid. We all recall that the former Minister of State with responsibility for overseas aid, Deputy O'Donnell, negotiated a multiannual deal with the Department of Finance, very much contrary to its instincts and what it wanted, which would have effectively seen us meeting the UN target by 2007. Scarcely was the door closed on Deputy O'Donnell than her successor began to reduce the budget, notwithstanding the hypocritical remarks of the Taoiseach in Johannesburg a few weeks later. This would be an appropriate time for us to take stock of where we are and, more importantly, where we are going in regard to our overseas commitments.
Marc MacSharry (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I join Senator Norris in asking the Leader to seek clarification on the type of vessels being used, including their health and safety requirements, in the light of the recent disaster involving the Prestige off the Spanish coast. Will the Leader have a word with the Minister tomorrow when dealing with the Fisheries (Amendment) Bill about what is going on in the Department in regard to the monitoring of this disaster and the implications for our fish stocks? I understand the Galicia bank is in serious danger. What are the implications for our fish stocks on the south coast and the coastline in general in regard to the protection of our beaches?
Michael Finucane (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I want to raise an issue which is important to the credibility of this House and the respect given in other countries, especially the USA. While I do not dispute the honourable intentions of Senator White in going to Colombia, I ask her, in the interests of this House, to reconsider her decision to travel for the trial.
Labhrás Ó Murchú (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Is the Leader aware of an Amnesty International report regarding the problems in the Colombian judicial system, including the use of torture on prisoners and the intimidation of witnesses? After raising some weeks ago the matter of the three Irishmen facing trial there, I was disappointed to receive hate mail. I also received hate mail in the past when campaigning on human rights issues. I compliment Senator White and wish her well on her human rights mission. One of the reasons that so many suffered so much from miscarriages of justice in the past was that too few did too little, too late.
Shane Ross (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I thank Senator Finucane for raising this matter and congratulate all those Members of this and the other House who withdrew from the proposed visit to Colombia. It is important that we hear from the Leader of the House Government policy on sending representatives. All the Members who intended to go have, in their wisdom, withdrawn because they do not want to be used as propaganda tools for the IRA. I endorse those who believe Senator White's visit is unwise.
Shane Ross (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I am asking the Leader a question, as you probably heard, a Chathaoirligh. We have an ambassador out there, presumably doing an excellent job, who is looking after the rights of the people concerned. It would be wrong and confuse the issue if people were to come back and make highly politicised statements, which is what I predict. This is a very dangerous area.
Shane Ross (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Senators Hayes and McDowell mentioned tonight's debate on the Estimates and housing. I notice the complete silence on the one issue causing real trouble in the public service – benchmarking. Why can we not have a full and frank debate on benchmarking? Why can we not start in this House by saying about the main beneficiaries of benchmarking—
Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
The Estimates are being discussed tomorrow.
Shane Ross (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I want a full three hour debate on benchmarking. I will not be silenced on the issue.
Martin Mansergh (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I wonder whether the benchmarking report stated anything about Independent Senators.
Martin Mansergh (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
There is a long and honourable tradition of allowing observers to go to controversial trials outside the jurisdiction. I went with the former Deputy, Gerry Collins—
Joe McHughMartin Mansergh (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
—and the present Ceann Comhairle to the Kirkpatrick supergrass trial of INLA members. We did not allow ourselves in any way to be used for INLA propaganda. If people want to go, they should be allowed. Recently in UCD I met a large group of Colombian businessmen—
Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
We should not discuss this at this time.
David Norris (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context
There are all kinds of people in FARC. We know that.
Martin Mansergh (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
The businessmen concerned did not have huge faith in their system of justice.
Paul Coghlan (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
The Leader indicated that she will attend another meeting this morning where a very important matter will be discussed, one which will arise in the House later.
Paul Coghlan (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
At a minimum she might ensure that at least those who had made commitments and plans, young couples and those who have paid booking fees—
Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
The Senator must make a point relevant to the Order of Business.
Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
It does not appear to be relevant to me.
Paul Coghlan (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
This House should have faith in its Leader and she should pursue this point at that meeting.
Timmy Dooley (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
When responding to the Opposition, the Leader should identify the hypocrisy in asking for a free vote on tonight's motion while not respecting the views of Senator White in an independent decision she made.
Timmy Dooley (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I accept that, but there is hypocrisy in what the Opposition has said about Senator White's personal decision.
Sheila Terry (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I had intended to raise the issue of flooding but it will be discussed tonight when Senator Morrissey raises it on the Adjournment. It has had an impact on many people in Dublin city and County Meath.
Will the Leader ask the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform to examine urgently the situation where a number of people are seeking compensation from the State as a result of the Supreme Court's decision on interim barring orders? It must be addressed because it is having a severe impact on families who are now waiting up to 12 weeks for the interim barring order. Unless this is dealt with quickly, it will cause a great deal of distress for those families and for the men in question. We must uphold everyone's constitutional rights. The Minister should come into the House to debate the issue.
Feargal Quinn (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context
We have often spoken about road safety and I have congratulated the National Road Safety Council on the advertisements it has placed. I was jolted when I learned that our public service broadcaster this week withdrew an advertisement from the National Road Safety Council because of an objection from one of its advertisers. The advertiser of the motor car which appeared in the NRSC advertisement was concerned that there might be an association in the public mind between that motor car and the accident. I do not believe there would be any such thing. It is a disgrace that a public service broadcaster is at the behest of a commercial company. This company sponsors "The Late Late Show" and demanded that the advertisement be withdrawn because its motor car appeared in it. There should be a clear line between commercial influences and public service broadcasting or newspaper reporting. The Government should investigate this matter.
Kathleen O'Meara (Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I support Senator Quinn's remarks about the withdrawal of that advertisement. It was made in the public service and dealt with a very serious issue.
Will the Leader ask the relevant Minister, be that the Minister for Health and Children or the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform, to clarify the situation regarding legislation covering surrogate parenting, particularly in relation to Irish couples who are using services abroad? There is no legal framework in this State and this could cause serious difficulties in the future for Irish couples making such arrangements and Irish clinics which are organising them.
The Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform has announced his intention to introduce wide-ranging legislation to reform the Garda Síochána. In the interests of the debate on the future role of the Garda Síochána, will the Minister come into the House to hear our views before the legislation is introduced, with a view to enhancing it?
Ulick Burke (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
What action, if any, does the Leader intend to take to prevent further criticism of Mr. Justice Flood, as happened last week, especially since public hearings begin today? Last week Senator Mansergh openly criticised Mr. Justice Flood and further made outrageous statements with regard to the appropriateness of the appointment of Mr. Burke as Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform on merit—
Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
We are not reopening last week's debate. Will the Senator make his point?
Ulick Burke (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I am asking that the Leader restrain her colleagues from making criticism of—
Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
That is not a matter for the Order of Business.
John Dardis (Progressive Democrats)
Link to this: Individually | In context
There was no one from Fine Gael. A Cathaoirligh, do you remember when I responded during the debate rather than after?
Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
In view of the serious cutbacks in the Estimates and in the national development plan I ask Leader of the House to arrange for a debate on the BMW region. I have sought this debate on numerous occasions. We need a debate now because the BMW region is not getting its fair share of the cake and there are drastic cutbacks in that area.
Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Senator Hayes, the leader of Fine Gael in the House, spoke about the Estimates and asked if there would be a free vote. We will vote freely for Fianna Fáil.
Michael Finucane (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
What about the Progressive Democrats?
Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
There was a further point regarding ministerial salaries in which he asked if Ministers would take a reduction in same. The Minister for Finance will be here tomorrow afternoon and the Senator could ask him that question. Senator Norris asked about the craft which ply in EU waters, as did Senator MacSharry. I am very appreciative of Senator Minihan who sent me a note stating that under European law the double hull vessels will have to be in place by 2015.
Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
The Leader without interruption, please.
Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Since 1996 all ships must have a double hull. While 2015 is a long way off I wanted to give the Senator the exact position. We will have to see if that can be advanced in any way and, perhaps, that is a matter for the Minister when he goes to the ministerial Council meetings. It is a terrible disaster.
The Ceann Comhairle's room is not a matter for this House.
David Norris (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context
The Republic is one and indivisible, not a dictatorship.
Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Senator McDowell spoke about the freezing of developmental aid. I suggest he raise that matter tomorrow on the Estimates debate with the Minister for Finance. Senator MacSharry referred to the types of vessels which are still allowed in our waters and the protection of our waters. I do not think anything can protect against what happened in Galicia. It is catastrophe. As I said to Senator Norris, we will have to ask the relevant Minister to explain the timetable and if it can be advanced.
Senator Finucane raised the matter of Senator Mary White who is travelling to Colombia and wished to complain about it. Senator Ó Murchú referred to the imperfect justice system in Columbia. Senator Mansergh also spoke on that issue. Senator White is travelling to Columbia in a personal capacity. There has been a long-standing tradition in both Houses, whatever the alleged misdemeanours or crimes, to see justice carried out. It is in that tradition that Senator White is going to Columbia. Senators Ó Murchú and Mansergh made strong utterances in that regard.
Senator Coghlan raised the abolition of the first time buyer's grant. I am sure he will contribute to the debate on this issue later.
Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Senator Coghlan cannot attend our meeting.
Senator Dooley spoke of the Opposition's hypocrisy in seeking a free vote. Senator Terry raised the issue of flooding in west Dublin. That matter has been tabled for discussion on the Adjournment by another Senator. I understand that only the Senator who tabled the matter can speak on it.
Senator Terry, echoed by Senator O'Meara, also raised the urgent need to deal with the issue of barring orders. This is an extremely urgent matter and I will contact the offices of the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform to ascertain what immediate plans are in place to rectify it. This matter has been brought to my attention also.
Senator O'Meara asked about proposed legislation from the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform, Deputy McDowell. While the Minister said he will introduce legislation regarding the Garda Complaints Board in the middle of next year we may not see it until nearer the end of the year.
Senator O'Meara also asked what agency is responsible for monitoring or regulating surrogate parenthood. There is no such agency here. I am aware that many people are travelling to the UK in that regard. I will bring the issue to the attention of the relevant Minister.
Senator Ulick Burke also referred to Senator Mansergh who has drawn great attention to himself today – Senator Norris inadvertently called him Tom Mansergh—
Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
The Leader without interruption, please.
David Norris (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Uncle Tom is a much nicer man. It is more appropriate.
Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Senator Ulick Burke expressed his feelings about Senator Mansergh's reference to Justice Flood. The time for discussing such issues is when the debate is taking place. I am surprised the Senator did not comment then.
Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
The Senator was in the House. I saw him. It is a bit old hat to raise this matter three days later. That is my opinion.
Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
The Senator could have shouted it out.
Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Senator Ross also referred to Senator White's intention to travel to Columbia. We have already dealt with that matter. He also asked for a full debate on benchmarking. We look forward to hearing the Senator's lively contribution on the Estimates tomorrow afternoon. I know he has firm ideas on this issue. The Senator is welcome back from his break.
Brian Hayes (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Is there agreement on time slots for statements on Northern Ireland? It is not controversial.
Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
It will be one hour in total. The Taoiseach's office has informed me that he will make a statement of 15 minutes. I have yet to clarify whether he requires five minutes at the end. That will mean not more than five minutes for each speaker.
Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
It has not been abandoned.
Order of Business agreed to.