Seanad debates
Thursday, 7 November 2002
Order of Business.
Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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The Order of Business is No. 1, statements on the report of the Inspector of Mental Hospitals, 2001, with the contributions of spokespersons not to exceed 15 minutes and those of all other Senators not to exceed ten minutes and on which Senators may share time. I am very aware that it is not appropriate to announce a time of closure in the Seanad, but I hope this will come to a peaceful conclusion at 1.30 p.m.
Brian Hayes (Fine Gael)
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I have no difficulty with the Order of Business today, whatever about yesterday. No doubt the Leader of the House is aware that this is anti-racism in the workplace week. Can she find out from her Government colleagues when it is intended to bring forward the work permit Bill? This is an important Bill that is required in order to streamline legislation in this area to give additional protection to migrant workers and also to ensure any rogue employer who acts in an untoward way would be penalised severely by our legal code. This follows the report yesterday by the Equality Authority on this issue, which showed considerable abuse against many migrant workers. There is appalling abuse in terms of the length of time they work, conditions, health standards, etc. I would like to know when will we debate the work permit Bill because in some of the cases highlighted yesterday by the Equality Authority some workers were working up to 70 or 80 hours per week and only being paid for 50. This is a matter we must debate in the Seanad.
Will the Leader give a commitment to the House that we will have a full debate on the transport issue with the Minister next week? I understand that today Luas has been put back by another year to 2004 despite the commitments given to the people of Dublin city and county when the Leader was Minister. Given this, with the outstanding issue we discussed yesterday on the Order of Business on the rail service, there needs to be a full debate next week to which the Leader, as an excellent former Minister with responsibility for transport, would like to contribute.
Joe O'Toole (Independent)
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She should never have left that Ministry, if she was doing such a good job of it given that Luas has been delayed by a year on account of her leaving. I give my full support to the request from Senator Hayes for a debate, not just on work permits, but also on immigration policy. I addressed the conference organised by the Equality Authority yesterday and in recent times have raised the issue with the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform. There are a number of Departments involved in the whole issue of immigration and work permits. We are likely to have the same problems here in terms of racism as have been experienced in the United States and the United Kingdom if we do not introduce a policy from which we could gain considerably.
This issue is like the North of Ireland as a term of discussion. All sorts of views are offered in pubs and everywhere else. There is no proper debate on immigration. There are two polarised positions with one group suggesting everyone who arrives at our shores should come in while the other wants to let nobody in. We need a focused policy. Those on the left and the progressive side need to agree it is proper to have a policy, which should be implemented. Until people get an opportunity to discuss the matter, the middle ground will never emerge. We could do much good by having a debate.
We have made many mistakes in the development of the economy, but it is well accepted that one of the greatest lapses in the early economic plans of Lemass in the 1950s and early 1960s was the lack of development of the fishing industry. This has been a feature for the last three or four decades. There was considerable disquiet at the decision of the Taoiseach this year not to have a full Department for the marine. As somebody who comes from the west, I am threatened by the fact that consideration is being given to opening the Irish fishing box to Spanish trawlers. Those who do not live in the areas concerned do not understand it, but this will wreck the whole fishing industry, an industry which is on its knees and which needs support, encouragement and investment. The idea of opening it up will mean we will have no fish in a very short period. The Minister with responsibility for the marine should come to the House to bring forward a plan for us to debate and reflect the views of those involved in the industry.
Brendan Ryan (Labour)
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I welcome the Leader to the Opposition benches. She did a wonderful job this morning tearing a strip off the Minister for Transport. If the rest of us used the language she used—
Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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That is not relevant to the Order of Business.
Brendan Ryan (Labour)
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The Leader deserves to be complimented on her wonderful role as Leader of the Opposition.
Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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A question on the Order of Business, please.
Brendan Ryan (Labour)
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There are two tribunal reports which have been laid before the Houses of the Oireachtas, the interim report of the Flood tribunal and the report of the Lindsay tribunal. These tribunals were set up by orders of the Oireachtas and while I can perhaps attribute political motives to the lack of debate on the Flood tribunal, one could argue that the Lindsay tribunal dealt with far more fundamental issues, as people died because of the events investigated by it. I request ample time from the Leader to discuss both reports as they raise issues of profound significance – in one case many feel the report fails to deal with many of the issues the tribunal was set up to address.
I fully support Senator O'Toole's calls for a debate on fisheries. The figures of the Department with responsibility for the marine suggest that since we joined the European Union we have given away at least €20 billion worth of fish to fishermen from outside the Irish zone of economic interest. This figure was supplied by the Department in answer to a Dáil question tabled for written reply asked on my behalf some years ago. It is a substantial figure. In terms of fisheries policy we should not just look at the possible arrival of more foreign fishing trawlers in our fishing area. We should look at the Irish zone of economic interest and the way in which it has been handed over to everyone else. If that is the price we choose to pay, so be it.
I raise again the issue Senator Brian Hayes mentioned yesterday, the Ombudsman's report on the Revenue Commissioners. It is not just about the individuals involved, though that is important. It reflects on the value system under which the Revenue Commissioners operate. As we have seen over and over, it is based on conciliation of the powerful and humiliation of the powerless. That is a fundamental statement of values in our society which is characterised by the refusal of the Revenue Commissioners to implement the request of the Ombudsman. It, therefore, necessitates urgent debate in the Oireachtas.
John Dardis (Progressive Democrats)
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I agree with Senators Hayes and O'Toole that it would be appropriate to debate the issue of racism and our attitudes to those who come here to work or seek refuge. The House could usefully confirm that some of the recent myths regarding how some of the people concerned are dealt with are myths. There was a degree of xenophobia in some circles when the Nice treaty was being debated and we could usefully put some of the statements made then to bed. The House would be unified in that regard.
There were calls prior to the suspension of the Northern Ireland Assembly and Executive for a debate on Northern Ireland. I was among several Senators who were of the view that the sensitivities of the time meant we should delay the debate. Now there is an interregnum and it would be appropriate for us to debate the issue, particularly as the Forum for Peace and Reconciliation is about to reconvene. I welcome this development as the forum did a useful job and would be beneficial again. In the context of its upcoming meeting, it would be useful for us to have a debate on Northern Ireland again as the House has a good record of debating the issue in a detached and compassionate way.
Michael Finucane (Fine Gael)
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I support the request for the Minister for Communications, Marine and Natural Resources to come to the House soon – before December if possible. Each December there is an annual ritual in Brussels where quotas are divided for the following year and the indications are that the discussions this year will be even more serious. I know from my time as spokesperson on the marine and natural resources in the Dáil that there has been concern over the erosion of fishing rights and the influence the Spanish and French wield in these discussions. It would be worth having the Minister come to the Seanad in advance in order that we could show our concern for the fishing industry, which is under a lot of pressure. Anyone reading the newspapers recently will see that there is talk of a total ban on fishing certain species to preserve stocks. There is much irresponsible conduct on the part of so-called flagship trawlers fishing off our coasts and raping our fisheries, something they have been doing for many years.
Terry Leyden (Fianna Fail)
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I thank the Chair for his communication on the Adjournment debate, but ask that an early debate be allowed on the ongoing crisis in Iraq—
Terry Leyden (Fianna Fail)
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I am asking the Leader, but the Chair informed me that it was not a matter suitable for discussion on the Adjournment, that it was more suitable for discussion by way of substantive motion rather than a limited ten minute debate. I ask the Chair to consider this under Standing Order 29 which permits—
Terry Leyden (Fianna Fail)
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The motion stands as I have submitted it. I have not withdrawn it.
Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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No, that was for discussion on the Adjournment. For a substantive issue the Senator should submit a motion.
Terry Leyden (Fianna Fail)
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I ask the Chair and the Leader, what is more urgent than the crisis in Iraq, the decision of the United Nations Security Council and our position in that regard? I am surprised by the silence from the Opposition and the so-called liberals who seem to be fearful when discussing anything to do with the United States. I am neither pro-Saddam Hussein nor pro-George Bush. I am pro-peace.
(Interruptions.)
Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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That is not relevant to today's Order of Business.
Terry Leyden (Fianna Fail)
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It could be interpreted that in some way I have some leaning—
Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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No, that is not relevant to the Order of Business.
Terry Leyden (Fianna Fail)
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I am in favour of the people of Iraq.
Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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The Senator is looking for a debate and can table a motion.
Terry Leyden (Fianna Fail)
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I call on the Leader and the Opposition to provide time to debate this issue. If they have the courage of their convictions—
(Interruptions.)
David Norris (Independent)
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That was a rather lively little spat. By comparison I expect I shall appear unusually well behaved.
Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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Does the Senator have a question on the Order of Business?
David Norris (Independent)
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I do. I congratulate the Leader on her sterling performance on "Today with Pat Kenny" regarding the transport system. My understanding is that Luas will be delayed by three months, which is quite understandable, but it is important that it commences by mid-2004, as there will be an immense influx of tourists from all over the world to celebrate the 100th anniversary of Bloomsday. We have to have it right by then.
Regarding transport, the Leader has said we should have a debate on freight, but I call for two discussions, if necessary. Moving freight onto the roads is a clear, specific issue, but if we need to have a debate on it, we should also have a general debate on transport for which I have asked time and again.
It is a pity the Minister had to leave the discussion to attend the House as I was able to continue listening on my rabbit's ears and heard the experts saying the only effect of Luas will be to erect a Berlin Wall against motorists and act as a defence to keep more cars out of the city. It will not shift the number of passengers about which people talked, but we already know that as we have had that argument here. The underground metro system is 100% vital. As the Seanad played a very significant role in amending the legislation to permit it, it is appropriate that we should take a positive interest in it. We should have a debate that will strengthen the Minister's hand in ensuring the capital city gets an effective underground rail system. We can extend it to Dingle eventually.
I ask that time be made available for a discussion about disbanding paramilitaries on both sides. In this regard, a signal should go out from this House. I ask that the Government take on such a motion. A young man was crucified by Orange thugs in the North. In another situation a young man was beaten up very badly in south Armagh for refusing to pay protection money to the IRA. We must be even-handed in our attitude. This House should send out a signal that this kind of behaviour is not tolerable in the afterlight of the agreements that came about.
With regard to the fisheries question, I must regretfully disagree with my colleague, Senator O'Toole, when he says people who do not live in areas like Dingle do not understand or are not concerned about the situation – we are. People like me have raised this critical issue. Professor Ed Walsh has come up with some very useful suggestions about the conservation of fish stocks which we sold out as part of our entry into the European Union—
Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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Does the Senator have a question for the Leader or is he supporting the motion?
David Norris (Independent)
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I am supporting it strongly. It is important that this House takes cognisance of the fact and sends a signal to the Spanish that, having been kicked out of Moroccan waters which they overfished, having exhausted their own fish stocks—
David Norris (Independent)
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—they will not be allowed to pillage ours.
Brendan Kenneally (Fianna Fail)
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I support the calls for a debate on marine issues and the Minister for Communications, Marine and Natural Resources to come to the House. I did not believe this subject was of great interest to other Members, but I am now the fifth person to have raised it this morning. I am delighted that there is such an awareness in the House about the issue. I ask for a general discussion on marine matters because of the proposal regarding the 50 mile limit. Because I come from an area which includes one of the major fishing ports, Dunmore East, I realise how serious an impact this could have, particularly with Spanish trawlers coming in. They are already fishing in our waters and fishing stocks are being decimated. I ask for a debate on issues such as the policing of fishing waters and proper recording of catches.
Sheila Terry (Fine Gael)
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I ask that the Minister for Social, Community and Family Affairs be invited to the House for a discussion on the plight of the tens of thousands who belong to private sector occupational pension schemes and were compelled to join such a scheme by their employers in keeping with the agreement with past Governments over several decades. They now find that their benefits are frozen. This issue should be highlighted. Those who left employment for one reason or another now find that their benefits were frozen at that time and that their pension is worthless.
Maurice Hayes (Independent)
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I, too, wish to join the queue of support for a debate on fisheries and the marine. I also support Senator Norris in his request for a debate on decommissioning. We can get hung up on weapons and decommissioning. The more important items to decommission are the beatings because they are the things that impinge on ordinary people. I am sure Senator Norris will be pleased to know that it would cheer up James Joyce to know that Luas is an anagram for slua. Will the Leader ask the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform when it will be possible to hear the report of the three people appointed to investigate allegations emanating from the police ombudsman's office in Belfast about complicity, bombing and intelligence? If these allegations are unfounded, as I believe them to be, they should be scotched as quickly as possible and brought into the open.
As a shop steward for retired ombudsmen, I support the report of the Ombudsman. He is an officer of Parliament and the Oireachtas and we should back him. From my experience I am aware that in the British system there was a committee to which the ombudsman presented his or her report. Departments were called to appear before it and it had a wonderfully modifying effect on their behaviour. This is an unprecedented report, not the ordinary annual report of the Ombudsman. It is the first or perhaps second time that an Ombudsman has found it necessary to make a special report to the Oireachtas and we should take it seriously. I ask the Leader to find the means by which a joint committee could examine it and ensure the people concerned get justice, to which they are entitled.
Paul Coghlan (Fine Gael)
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What are the Government's plans, if any, to introduce the consolidation measure concerning the rules governing the operation of the Central Bank? I understand these rules are enshrined in seven laws. We have recently being ticked off by the ECB in regard to the apparent in-built lack of transparency.
Development land attracts a VAT rate of 12.5% which does not a difficulty for builders and developers because they are registered and can legitimately claim VAT back. As I understand it, councils are precluded from so registering, although the Government and the Department of the Environment and Local Government are encouraging them to enter the open market to obtain lands. There are huge waiting lists for housing.
Paul Coghlan (Fine Gael)
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I am not. I want action, not talk, from the Government. Obviously, there should be a level playing pitch—
Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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The Senator should either request a debate—
Paul Coghlan (Fine Gael)
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I am not looking for a debate, with respect. Proper answers from the Government will satisfy me, through the conduit of the Leader of the House. I appeal to her for a level playing pitch and immediate Government action to put this matter right.
James Bannon (Fine Gael)
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Very serious concerns have been expressed to me in recent days by individuals who look after elderly persons in their homes with regard to the closure of six of the 22 centres of the National Carers Association. Two of these centres are in the midlands, one in Longford and the other in Roscommon. I ask the Leader to invite the Minister for Health and Children to the House to explain the situation regarding cutbacks in this important area. As the six centres are due to close on 17 November, a debate on the matter is urgently required.
John Paul Phelan (Fine Gael)
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I ask the Leader to invite the Minister for Communications, Marine and Natural Resources to the House to discuss the composition of the Broadcasting Commission of Ireland. A decision by the commission to refuse a licence for the new franchise area of Carlow-Kilkenny to the existing Radio Kilkenny franchise holders has caused a great deal of controversy in Kilkenny. The franchise holders held the franchise for 12 years. Radio Kilkenny had the second highest listenership figures for local radio and was community operated and managed.
I ask the Leader to invite the Minister for Arts, Sport and Tourism to the House. I requested his presence previously to discuss the tourism industry but I would also like to discuss the level of preparedness for the Special Olympics next year. It will be a major occasion and I worry whether we are prepared for it.
Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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Senator Brian Hayes made a passionate statement about the current anti-racism week. He also asked about the worker permit Bill. This issue was also taken up by Senator O'Toole. There is no doubt that it is one of the biggest issues facing this country. Perception in this issue is important and has far-reaching effects. We all profess to be non-racist, to be in favour of the welcoming agenda and making proper provision, not only in a paternalistic sense but in a true sense of comradeship. That, however, does not happen.
This House has a responsibility in this issue. If the leaders of the groups agree, we could come together to table a suitable motion which would have the approval of the entire House. Strong statements are needed and I hope we can discuss this issue. I will find out about the worker permit Bill and ask the Tánaiste if she will introduce it in this House, following the initiative which I hope will happen.
The Senator also asked if I could give a pledge to hold a debate on transport. I would say to Senator Ryan that the programme for next week was formalised last night and I hope all his wishes will be fulfilled. The Minister for Transport will come to the House next week to debate transport.
At the behest of the House, I initially confined the debate to the proposed closure of passenger and freight lines, which was the main issue yesterday. I have, however, extended the debate to include other transport related matters. The immediate concern is to stop what is being proposed and I do not want the debate to be taken up with other issues, but I suppose I will have to leave that up to the good intentions of those involved.
Senator O'Toole raised the issue of race and equality and spoke about the polarised positions. He is right that it is difficult for proper avenues of transition to be worked out satisfactorily. It is a huge job of persuasion because people, through perhaps no fault of their own, have in-built and long held misunderstandings about the issue and we must work on that.
Senator O'Toole also raised the fishing industry, a matter which was echoed by many others. I agree the Minister for Communications, Marine and Natural Resources, Deputy Dermot Ahern, should come to the House. Our programme is full next week, but I hope we can fit him in the following week if he accepts our invitation, which I am sure he will. I agree it is an important industry.
Senator Ryan asked when the two tribunal reports will be debated. The Flood and the Lindsay tribunal reports will be debated next week and I hope he will be here. In case there is a rí rá in respect of the Flood report, it is referred to as the Second Interim Report of the Tribunal of Inquiry into Certain Planning Matters and Payments. It is not labelled the Flood report as we are following what was done in the other House. The Senator also raised the issue of the fishing industry and the need for a debate on the Ombudsman's report and the value systems it shows up.
Senator Dardis spoke strongly on the racism issue. I hope we can have a quick and informal meeting of the leaders of the groups in the House to work out a plan in that regard. He also called for a debate on Northern Ireland in advance of the meeting of the Forum for Peace and Reconciliation. That would be welcome in the light of No. 5, motion 11, on the Order Paper in the name of Senator Norris on decommissioning. Senator Maurice Hayes expressed a wish for the report of Nuala O'Loan, the Police Ombudsman in Northern Ireland, to be debated. I agree with him and will inquire as to whether we can hold a debate.
Senator Bannon raised the proposed closure of six care centres. I do not know the position as I have not seen it in the media. I will, however, make inquiries. Senator Finucane raised the issue of the fishing industry, particularly the predatory instincts of the flag ship carriers, their size and the way they are affecting our fishing industry.
Senator Kenneally joined in the call for a debate on the fishing industry, coming as he does from a coastal constituency and as spokesperson for that industry. Senator Terry spoke about the pension schemes and asked that the Minister for Social and Family Affairs, Deputy Coughlan, come to the House. She was here last night and it would be a quick turnaround if she were to appear again this morning. I do not think that has ever been done. I understand that issue was raised last night in the debate. I do not mean to be smart but I am explaining that I do not expect I would be able to get the Minister to come back again so quickly. I suggest the Senator raise the matter on the Adjournment.
Senator John Paul Phelan raised the issue of the Broadcasting Commission of Ireland. It is an independent commission and the Minister for Communications, Marine and Natural Resources, Deputy Dermot Ahern, does not have the right to intervene in the awarding of broadcasting licences. I appreciate the Senator's concerns in that Radio Kilkenny had the licence for many years and was apparently doing a good job but did not receive the licence on this occasion. I will relay the matter to the Minister but the commission is an independent body which cannot be interfered with. He also asked that the Minister for Arts, Sport and Tourism, Deputy O'Donoghue, come to the House to discuss preparations for the Special Olympics in 2003. He is coming to the House next week to discuss tourism but I will ask him if he will discuss that matter as well.