Seanad debates
Wednesday, 23 October 2002
Order of Business.
Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
The Order of Business is Nos. 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 and 11, motion No. 10. Nos. 1 to 3, inclusive, which deal with amendments to the terms of reference of select committees relating, in particular, to the numbers of Seanad Members on committees, as agreed by the Committee on Procedure and Privileges last Thursday, will be taken without debate. I thank all Members of the Seanad for the instructive debate we had prior to the meeting of the Committee on Procedure and Privileges which led to welcome changes. No. 4 deals with the application of the Freedom of Information Act, 1997, to certain public bodies and will be referred to the appropriate finance committee. As regards No. 5, statements on Northern Ireland, the contributions of spokespersons shall not exceed 12 to 15 minutes and those of all other Senators shall not exceed five minutes. Statements shall conclude no later than 5 p.m. and Members may share time. No. 6 is the Digital Hub Development Agency Bill, 2002, Committee Stage. No. 11, motion 10, will be taken from 6 p.m. to 8 p.m.
Brian Hayes (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
We agree with the Order of Business. I thank the Leader for agreeing to hold a debate on Northern Ireland and I welcome the fact that the Minister will make a statement to the House.
In light of the aftermath of last Thursday's "Prime Time" programme on child sexual abuse, I am sure the Government will take the view that a full inquiry will be required to investigate all the matters which are coming to public attention. A time of reflection is required to ensure we get this inquiry right, that it is fully comprehensive and deals not just with the dioceses of Ferns and Dublin but with all allegations in connection with all Irish dioceses which have made within a specified timeframe. Does the Leader agree that a debate on this issue is necessary in the weeks before the Government decides the terms of reference of the inquiry? I ask this in order to be helpful. We all agree that the enormity of the issue for the Roman Catholic Church and for the State demands that it be addressed in a constructive, open-minded and transparent manner. We will do the country a service by holding the debate in the weeks before the inquiry is announced.
Joe O'Toole (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context
On behalf of the Independent group, I express appreciation to the Leader for the efficient manner in which the question of committee membership was dealt with in the past week. It has helped enormously. It is important this House should take the lead on this matter. I have discussed it with many people in the other House, all of whom agreed with me on this, demonstrating that we must examine the structures and technical details of the decisions taken in other places.
I echo the point made by Senator Brian Hayes. Nobody in his or her right mind on any side of the House wants to make political capital out of the recent extraordinary events. We have discussed these matters on several occasions and nobody can claim to have better knowledge of the issue than anybody else. I ask the Government to give a clear undertaking that the law of the land takes precedence at all times over Canon Law or the internal laws of any other group. It is completely unacceptable that there should be any doubt about this. I ask that the Leader request the Government to outline what is being done to protect young people now and into the future.
The Leader will be aware, from a time many years ago when we both wore other hats, of the opposition we encountered from major right-wing Catholic groups when we tried to introduce the Stay Safe programme, which she supported. I want parents and communities to be reassured that as well as dealing with the problems of yesterday, we are taking the appropriate steps to deal with today's and tomorrow's threats to our children.
I support Senator Hayes's call for a period of reflection. This will be important to ensure decisions are taken properly. It would be completely at one with the objectives of the House if the Minister were to consult Senators on how to move this matter forward. The Government will receive nothing but supportive advice from the House on this issue and it would be worthwhile for it to take the advice of all sides.
Brendan Ryan (Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I am delighted with the degree to which the House was able to agree on various matters in my absence. I hope it was a coincidence. I am glad the Leader and the Committee on Procedure and Privileges managed to change the number of Members on committees. I pay tribute to her. She has always been more than willing to be agreeable. Because of this, she is particularly difficult to deal with when she chooses to be otherwise. We have only seen one side so far and I am glad to see that it is in the ascendancy.
The Leader responded more or less positively to a request from my colleague, Senator McDowell, to a debate on the report of the Flood Tribunal and on the Lindsay Tribunal report, which disappointed by failing to draw conclusions from the evidence. Has the Leader made any progress on scheduling those debates?
There is nothing additional to say about the revelations of child sexual abuse that has not been said by my colleagues, except to reiterate what Senator O'Toole said about the stay safe programme. I was a member of the board of management of a boys' school when that programme was introduced and the difference between parents and the clerical church was immediately made very clear. A meeting was held on the matter attended by 300 to 400 parents and, contrary to what we were led to believe beforehand, their universal response to the stay safe programme was that it was too mild. They felt their children should have been told about threats in more specific and explicit terms. As parents appreciate these things, we must assert the primacy of the State and, as people who remain practising members of the church, assert the primacy of those who are its mainstay because excuses of lack of knowledge are beginning to wear very thin.
If we are to have a review of this we must look at issues of education law and equality legislation because certain things were entrusted to certain institutions by statute and many of us have reservations about continuing with them. I believe, therefore, in proceeding with this period of reflection which Senator Hayes suggests. After we have had time to think, we should have a serious, measured and sensible debate about the issues and the implications for the structures of our society, the relationship between church and state and, above all, about the primacy of the law of the State.
Jim Higgins (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Recently, RTÉ did an excellent series for its news programmes on the ravages of famine in Somalia. The chief reporter, Charlie Bird, went right to the heartland of the areas affected and the prognosis is that things will get worse. I would like a debate on our overseas development aid, particularly in the context of the fact that the Taoiseach has been going to international conferences and indicating that Ireland is ahead of the world in meeting United Nations targets when, in reality, in the spate of current cutbacks we have substantially reduced that aid. The consequences are quite obvious, which is why I call for a very comprehensive debate on what is a matter of life and death.
David Norris (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I join with colleagues in calling for a debate on the tragedy of the sexual abuse of children. It is a great pity that we have never included the abuse of children by violence and we should look at this issue because it has done extraordinary damage to people. It has not happened simply in Roman Catholic schools or been done only by Roman Catholic orders. It was endemic throughout society in the 1950s, which I remember very well, and it should be addressed. I do not have any great hope that this issue will be resolved on a global basis until the dictatorial attitudes of the present governing clique in Rome are overcome, which is a central issue. Until Christian churches begin, for the first time, to tell the truth about human sexuality we will continue to have this kind of evasion and damage to young people. I hope they will.
It is quite extraordinary that the churches, particularly the Roman Catholic Church, sought exemption from legislation regarding equality and the entitlement to fire people from their employment on the grounds simply of their sexuality. That needs to be looked at again and I hope this House will do so. While this is not a happy subject, I hope we might be able to address it in a way that would draw a line under it in order that we can put it to one side and move forward positively.
I ask the Leader of the House, in particular, as a result of her distinguished career as Minister for Public Enterprise, to ask the Minister for Transport to come to the House to give an update on the question of transport, in particular in Dublin and in light of the commitments given to the development of an underground railway section in the city. People like myself who fought for this for many years are concerned that in the current difficult economic situation this might be avoided.
Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I have given the Senator great latitude.
David Norris (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context
The Cathaoirleach has, and I am grateful to him for it.
Michael Kitt (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I support what was said by Senators about the Stay Safe programme and compliment the Leader on the work she has done. I read reports in a newspaper during the week to the effect that the Department of Education and Science had abolished the exploring masculinities programme. One report stated there was a concern that the programme would turn young men into a bunch of sissies.
Michael Kitt (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
It is regrettable that the programme has been withdrawn. We might get a reply from the Department as to what is happening regarding the programme on which a good deal of money has been spent on related literature and videos.
Regarding another issue in education, successive Governments talked about setting up a college of music in Galway, a matter on which we should get a response from the Department. Students in the west who wish to study music face practical difficulties. Senator Brian Hayes prepared a report on the role of music in education for the previous Joint Committee on Education and Science.
Michael Kitt (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
The role of music in education and the difficulties facing students who wish to take music as a subject are matters to which we should return.
Paul Coghlan (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I support the call by Senators Brian Hayes and O'Toole for a debate on child abuse and hope the Leader can accede to their request. I do not want to be repetitive, but the points they made are meritorious and of major concern to Church and State.
I support the call by Senator Ryan for a debate on the interim reports of Mr. Justice Flood and Ms Justice Lindsay. Can the Leader tell the House today when we will have a debate on these matters?
Martin Mansergh (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I support Senator Higgins's request for a debate on overseas development assistance on which we have made great progress which I would like to see sustained.
I wish the Leader to raise with the relevant Minister the reported situation relating to rail freight. I spent an hour travelling from the Naas Road to this House this morning. I had visions of beet lorries clogging up towns from Wexford to Mallow, if a measure such as that proposed was to go through. The Leader, as a former Minister with responsibility for this area who will go into the history books for her role in the rail safety programme, would realise from going through the transport history books that we have an underutilised resource on which a good deal of money was spent in refurbishing and making it safe. It is not acceptable for that resource not to make its contribution to alleviating congestion. We need a "can do" management approach in our transport company rather than any feeling of defeatism.
Mary Henry (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I ask the Leader if the relevant Minister will come to the House to explain to us how widely the Stay Safe programme is being applied in national schools. I wrote to the former Minister for Education and Science, Deputy Woods, about the programme six months ago because it is not being applied in schools attended by many children to whom I talked about this. He said it was being applied only in about 70% to 80% of schools, which seems low given the length of time it has been introduced. Perhaps the Minister will explain how widely the programme is being applied now.
I was delighted to hear the Leader say she thought Senator Quinn's idea of discussing various reports in the House was a good one. I suggest that we start with the report of the inspector of mental hospitals which was published in September. It has a wide application throughout the country to those with psychiatric illness and their families.
Fergal Browne (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I note that the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform will be in the House tomorrow. As a matter of courtesy I would like the Leader to inform him that I will be raising issues relating to the Education (Welfare) Act, 2000. Under the Act, many schools are obliged to report children who are absent for more than 20 days; unfortunately not one education welfare officer has been appointed in that time. That obviously can be a big link to crime. Many of the children who are absent from school get involved in petty crime.
Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
That is for tomorrow's Order of Business.
Fergal Browne (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
It is important that the Leader point that out to the Minister—
Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
The Senator can make his contribution on that tomorrow.
Fergal Browne (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Will the Leader ask the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform to find out why no education welfare officers have been appointed and what effect that is having on crime?
Joe McHugh (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I urge the Leader to seriously consider debating with a Minister the motion I tabled on rural development, community infrastructure-services and depopulation. It is on the Order Paper and she might recommend that it be dealt with during Private Members' time. My mandate comes from the county councillors who elected me. I am delighted to have been elected to this House but it was a tough and gruelling task. I have not yet contributed to the debate on Seanad reform.
I would like the Minister for Arts, Sport and Tourism, Deputy O'Donoghue, to give me an updated position regarding funding towards the Letterkenny leisure centre.
Feargal Quinn (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Will the Leader consider holding a debate on the equality legislation that has been passed in recent years? At the time we passed the legislation we believed it to have been in good order. However, a number of issues have cropped up since then. One that comes to mind is the finding of a judge that pubs are no longer allowed to debar children at any hour of the day. It appears that the censorship of films and the certification of children who must be accompanied by an adult may not be enforceable for the same reasons. Perhaps these are not the most important of topics but if we pass legislation, it is worth debating it in order to advise the Minister that it is worth being reconsidered.
Sheila Terry (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Will the Leader ask the Minister for Arts, Sport and Tourism, or the relevant Minister, to come to the Seanad to debate the national stadium issue before a decision is made on which company will construct the stadium, or if the stadium should go ahead at all? I believe the Taoiseach's office has received several expressions of interest. It is important that the Seanad debate the issue before the contract is issued.
Jim Walsh (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Will the Leader arrange for the Minister for Transport to come the Seanad to debate the issue of toll roads, specifically the recent suggestion of the NRA of cash only tolls? That was a ludicrous suggestion to make as the use of electronic methods of payment could facilitate the flow of traffic. The last thing we need is another road like the West Link which is a bottleneck and an environmental disaster but a cash cow for NTR.
Ulick Burke (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I would be grateful if the Leader provided time for a debate with the Minister for Education and Science on a recent report carried out in the Eastern Regional Health Authority area which showed that one out of every three children was being bullied at school. The consequences of this are serious, both for the education system and the children being bullied, the vast majority of whom are vulnerable and disadvantaged. As a result of being bullied, they are likely to be further disadvantaged which will have a devastating effect on them in later life. I accept that the report deals with only one health authority area, but it surely follows that a similar position, perhaps not to the same degree, obtains nationally.
Frank Feighan (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Will the Leader invite the Minister for Finance, as a shareholder in the national lottery, to come before the House to explain the diabolical and discriminatory decision taken by that company to remove lotto machines from most rural post offices and shops? Most of these machines will be moved to major shops on the east coast and people in rural areas will only have the opportunity to obtain quick picks. This is another attempt to undermine the viability of rural post offices and shops which surely runs contrary to Government policy.
John Paul Phelan (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Will the Leader arrange for the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform to come before the House to discuss an issue which arose yesterday, namely, the fact that barristers at the tribunals were awarded a 50% increase in their fees for daily attendance for which I understand the Attorney General gave approval a number of months ago? I urge the Leader to request the Minister to appear before us to discuss the issue.
Michael Finucane (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
On the basis of the referendum on the Nice treaty held last Saturday, will the Leader agree to bringing forward an all-party motion for consideration by the Minister for the Environment and Local Government and other appropriate individuals that, in the future, general elections and local elections be held on a Saturday?
Michael Finucane (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
It obviously suits the electorate to vote on a Saturday. If we compared the recent general election and Saturday's referendum in terms of who did or did not vote, it would emerge that elections held on weekdays disenfranchise a segment of the electorate.
Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
With regard to Senator Finucane's point, while I accept that people have different viewpoints, everyone was pleased with the turnout on Saturday which, for a referendum, was high but not as high as people would have hoped in the context of the universal franchise. The fact that the referendum was held on Saturday and the fine weather, for which we cannot legislate, contributed to the high turnout. The result was excellent and people's voices were heard, loud and clear. I am sure the Minister for the Environment and Local Government will be giving consideration to this matter. A by-election in Tipperary was held on a Saturday, but this was the first national poll to be held on that day and it clearly facilitated people in terms of their getting out to vote.
Senator Hayes, who welcomed the fact that the debate on Northern Ireland is to take place today, and many others raised the extremely serious issue of child sexual abuse. The Senator stated he believes there should be time for reflection before people rush into making precipitate announcements which later might be found to be insufficiently comprehensive to enable the issue to be fully debated. I will return to this matter later in my reply and thank the Senators for raising it. They did so in a helpful manner.
Senator O'Toole referred to the results from the committee in which he and the other group leaders played a strong role. He also mentioned the child abuse issue, the law of the land and what we are not doing in this regard. We talk about the dreadful events that occurred, but what are we doing now to safeguard young people and children? I remember the warm sunny day in July 1991 when the Senator called to see me with the two primary school teachers who were concerned with getting the Stay Safe programme off the ground. I was accompanied by the chief psychologist and the assistant secretary in the Department with responsibility for primary education. We decided there and then to go ahead with the programme.
Senator Henry said that between 70 and 80 schools are implementing the programme, but we have to confirm that figure. All Members who spoke on this issue are correct. In all my time in public life I do not think I received as many bitter letters as on that occasion. I left the Department six months later, but by then the Stay Safe programme was started. The letters were from groups which chose to represent themselves as being in the top echelon of parents. They were determined that the programme should not be started. It was amazing. The tenor of the letters was that children should not know what they did not need to know. When one thinks about it now, one's heart aches.
Senator Ryan sought debates on the Flood and Lindsay tribunals. I am trying to organise those debates and will refer back to the House about them. The Senator also referred to child sex abuse and the equality legislation. Senator Higgins raised the famine in Somalia and the need for a debate on overseas development aid. This call was echoed by Senator Mansergh. It is time we held such a debate.
Senator Norris referred to child abuse and violence and asked that we look at the progress of equality legislation since its introduction. He linked the need to tackle violence to children with tackling child sexual abuse. He also asked that the Minister for Transport, Deputy Brennan, come to the House to discuss transport in Dublin. I know of old the Senator's strong concern about this matter. That concern was echoed by other Senators.
Senator Mansergh referred to the important matter of rail freight, as well as the ODA issue. There is no doubt that the roads are clogged and if the goods currently carried by rail are transferred to the roads, the situation will be disastrous. That issue can be brought up with the relevant Minister when he comes to the House.
Senator McHugh sought a debate on rural development services and gave an impassioned description of how he became a Member of the House. I am sure many other Senators can echo his sentiments. Lest he thinks I became a Member the easy way, I secured election to the Seanad many years ago myself. I know how long and convoluted the process is.
Senator Jim Walsh raised the issues of rail freight costs and toll road charges. He said that toll roads were milch cows, given the investment that is to be made in them. We will be better able to discuss that matter when the Minister for Transport, Deputy Brennan, addresses the House. Senator Ulick Burke wants the Minister for Education and Science to address the issue of bullying; that is a matter which the House can address in due course. Senator Feighan mentioned the removal of lottery machines from rural post offices. I regard that as a matter for The National Lottery and I have not come across such cases personally.
Senator John Phelan raised the matter of tribunal fees, which was also mentioned in the House yesterday. If we did not have tribunals, however, we would be seeking their establishment. They are doing satisfactory work and lawyers are paid what is deemed to be the appropriate rate or remuneration. I do not intend to go into the issue of whether that is fair. In general, we are pleased with the work that is being undertaken by the tribunals. We are particularly pleased they have come out with strong, cogent statements. The going rate for the job is a matter for those who decide upon such matters and I do not intend to comment further.
Begging your indulgence, a Chathaoirligh, I would like to make some general remarks on behalf of all Members of the House, on the child abuse issue. I hope that young people were not watching the "Prime Time" programme last Thursday because it was so raw. At the same time, however, it was very powerful and I notice that Senators have not commended RTÉ on the programme. It was a fine, professional and potent documentary which has touched everybody. One thinks of the young people whose youth and innocence were stolen, never to be regained. They will always be affected, as will their partnerships and their own children, in turn, by the degradation and deviance that was wreaked upon them. We all share in that awful feeling.
It should also be stated, however, that there are many hundreds of clerics throughout the land who are doing their duty. They have to face their parishioners every day, knowing that they are being viewed with suspicion. One cannot blame people for this reaction but the clergy want to undertake their work in the way Christ ordained. That is the other side of the picture.
Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
We cannot allow the current problem to continue, however. As the Taoiseach has stated, the law of the land must apply to everyone, no matter what their status in life. There are no more hiding places for those who seek to cover up their crimes in this way. There should never have been such hiding places, although there were. I am happy that this matter was raised in the House today in such a positive way. It gives a clear signal to those who would seek to withhold information and keep young people in a subservient attitude to authority, particularly church authority. Young people should be taught proper respect for authority, but not subservience.
There has been a general call for a debate in the House on this matter. The Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform and the Minister for Health and Children will be meeting the representatives of the victims of abuse today. We will watch those developments with interest and, hopefully, we will have an informed debate in the House in due course.
Order of Business agreed to.