Seanad debates
Wednesday, 9 October 2002
Order of Business.
2:30 pm
Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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The Order of Business is No. 1, motion re address by the President of the European Parliament, Mr. Pat Cox, MEP, to be taken without debate; No. 2, motion re restoration of Digital Hub Development Agency Bill, 2002, to the Order Paper, to be taken without debate; No. 3, motion re Order of Business, to be taken without debate; No. 4, motion re Seanad reform, with the contributions of spokespersons not to exceed 20 minutes; and No. 5, motion No. 3, Fine Gael Private Members' motion on education, to be taken from 6 p.m. to 8 p.m. The Government amendment to the motion has been supplied to Members.
Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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On No. 4, has time been allocated for other Senators?
Brian Hayes (Fine Gael)
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Will the Leader of the House consider amending No. 1 in order that, after the address and questions to the President of the European Parliament, the House will be given an opportunity to debate in a very concise way developments in Northern Ireland? She will no doubt agree that all Members wish the Taoiseach well tonight in his discussions with the British Prime Minister. Given the crisis ensuing in Northern Ireland, there is a need for a full debate in this House to take place tomorrow when we will have more knowledge available to us.
When does the Leader intend to propose a specific section on the Order Paper to deal with the second interim report of the Flood tribunal? She is no doubt aware that it is listed at No. 10 under the non-statutory section of the Order Paper. Given the implications and conclusions reached, when does she intend to have a full debate on it?
Joe O'Toole (Independent)
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There may be some confusion about this, but the Leader said the address tomorrow by Mr. Pat Cox will be taken without debate.
Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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No, I said the motion that we allow that address will be taken without debate.
Joe O'Toole (Independent)
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I apologise, we will agree on speaking times. I thank the Leader for putting these debates on the Order Paper as requested the last time we met. It is a good indication of how we can look forward to doing business for the remainder of this term.
I agree completely with the suggestions of Senator Hayes. With the publication of the Flood report and the extraordinary developments in Northern Ireland I am conscious that much has changed in the last month. We have always said we need to be careful about the statements we make on issues.
One of the major issues that always arises when we discuss Seanad reform is that of relevancy. In order for the House to be relevant at present, it is essential that the Flood report is debated. Members on all sides of the House – no single grouping can hold the moral high ground on issues of this nature – should be able to put forward their views on the report. It is important that Members should be seen to place their views on the record. I am seeking a debate on this matter and time should be set aside either tomorrow afternoon, as Senator Hayes suggested, or on the next occasion the Seanad meets. I would like us to have time to digest the statements that will be made today and tomorrow in the Dáil in respect of the report and then engage in a debate of our own.
The issue of Northern Ireland has been debated cogently and with great creativity and restraint in this House. It is both timely and important that we should have a debate on the situation in Northern Ireland in order that we can be brought up to date on developments and put forward our views. There is a great deal to be said on this matter. I ask that these two issues be debated as soon as possible.
Derek McDowell (Labour)
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I agree with the remarks made by other Members regarding Northern Ireland. It is important that we should debate both Northern Ireland and the interim report of the Flood tribunal at the earliest opportunity.
Another issue which demands urgent attention is the impending decision of the United Nations. Ireland is in the pivotal position – one it has not held for some time – of having a vote at the Security Council. It is remarkable that so little public attention has been focused on what is being done in our name at the Security Council and it would be extremely useful if we had a debate on this matter and were granted the opportunity to hear the views of either the Minister for Foreign Affairs or his Minister of State.
As the Cathaoirleach is aware, the Labour Party is concerned about the order in which Senators and groups represented in the House are called to speak. The Labour Party has the same number of Senators as the Independent group.
Derek McDowell (Labour)
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I appreciate that discussions have taken place in respect of this matter and Senator Norris and I will have plenty of time to discuss it further.
Derek McDowell (Labour)
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As already stated, the Labour Party has the same number of Senators as the Independent group.
Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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This matter is not appropriate to the Order of Business.
Derek McDowell (Labour)
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It is important that the Cathaoirleach should made a statement on this matter to the House because the Labour Party Senators, as members of a minority group, have rights, both as individuals and as members of that group. I wish to make it clear that the committee does not have the power to oppress a minority in circumstances which are clearly frivolous. It has been suggested that, because of their accumulated senility, Independent Members should have some priority. We do not accept that.
David Norris (Independent)
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Judging by the imbecility of the Senator's group, senility seems the preferable option.
Derek McDowell (Labour)
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I am tempted to say that Senator Norris provides both with aplomb.
Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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I will explain the position. As Senator McDowell may be aware, under Standing Order 32, the Chair has sole discretion in calling a Senator to speak. His choice of speaker is influenced by the numerical strength of the relevant Senator's group. The Independent group and Labour group each has five Members. In the absence of any direction in Standing Orders, I called Senator O'Toole to speak on the basis of the seniority of the Independent group which has been in existence since 1987. That is my ruling.
Derek McDowell (Labour)
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I have no intention of being disruptive, but I wish to state that we do not accept that ruling. In addition, we do not accept the Cathaoirleach's entitlement to make what is, in effect, an illegal ruling.
Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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I have the power to make such a ruling under Standing Order 32.
Terry Leyden (Fianna Fail)
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I wish to raise on the Adjournment of the House the current crisis in the beef industry. I wish to call on the Minister—
Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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That is not a matter for the Order of Business.
Terry Leyden (Fianna Fail)
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It is a matter for the Adjournment.
Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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If the Senator wishes to raise a matter on the Adjournment, he must give prior notice.
Terry Leyden (Fianna Fail)
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I request that the House consider, on the Order of Business, the issues relating to the crisis in the beef industry, including pricing arrangements. Beef producers are receiving very low prices for their product and the IFA is protesting. I call on the Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment to have the issues investigated further by the Competition Authority.
Jim Higgins (Fine Gael)
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At our first sitting I requested a special debate on the economy. The situation was extremely bad at the time and has worsened considerably in the meantime. There is now a considerable shortfall in corporation and income tax revenue. The Minister for Finance has managed, magically, to turn a substantial surplus into a projected deficit of €750 million.
Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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Does the Senator have a question for the Leader?
Jim Higgins (Fine Gael)
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I ask for a special debate on that matter.
There has been a very serious development today in the Supreme Court where a section of the 1996 Domestic Violence Act in relation to interim barring orders has been struck down as unconstitutional. There are approximately 1,000 interim barring currently outstanding and it is important that their status be established immediately. I ask the Leader of the House to seek immediate clarification. If amending legislation is required, it should be brought before the House as a matter of urgency.
Labhrás Ó Murchú (Fianna Fail)
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I wish to raise an urgent issue of human rights. I ask the Leader to convey my concerns to the Minister for Foreign Affairs in relation to the three Irishmen currently held in captivity and awaiting trial in Colombia. There are many questions with regard to their safety and whether they can receive a fair trial. There has been a great deal of judgmental commentary on the case which has been linked, in the first instance, to the peace process in Northern Ireland and the international campaign against terrorism. Having regard to past miscarriages of justice such as the Birmingham Six and the Guildford Four, we need to ensure it does not take another ten or 12 years before another miscarriage of justice—
Labhrás Ó Murchú (Fianna Fail)
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Yes. I ask that the Minister for Foreign Affairs ensure there is Irish representation on a daily basis in Colombia. It would be very wrong if there were people out there with other agendas and if the three people concerned are ultimately found not guilty. I ask that the Minister monitor the situation.
Mary Henry (Independent)
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The report of the Inspector of Mental Hospitals for 2001 has been laid before the Houses of the Oireachtas. I ask the Leader of the House to arrange a debate on the matter at the earliest opportunity.
Paschal Mooney (Fianna Fail)
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I echo Senator McDowell's request in relation to Ireland's membership of the Security Council of the United Nations. However, I also applaud the initiative of the Minister for Foreign Affairs, Deputy Cowen. When Ireland assumed that important role earlier this year, he immediately initiated a process whereby representatives of the Department of Foreign Affairs brief the Joint Committee on Foreign Affairs on a monthly basis. The Minister came to the House on numerous occasions during the last term and I am sure he would welcome a further opportunity to do so. I ask the Leader to consider the possibility of arranging a debate on Ireland's membership of the United Nations to allow the Minister to give the House an update in that regard.
In the context of current matters of concern, I ask the Leader to convey the concern of thousands of sports fans at the news that Sky Television will not broadcast as had been expected the Ireland-Switzerland game, either on Sky One or terrestrial television. I ask the Leader to convey to the Minister for Communications, Marine and Natural Resources, Deputy Dermot Ahern, the real concern of many sports fans who will be deprived, simply as the result of considerations of money.
James Bannon (Fine Gael)
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Will the Leader request the Tánaiste and Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment to come to the House to explain the decision by Cardinal Health to defer the commencement of its operation in Longford for at least two years? The reversal of the company's announcement, made in November 1999, is a cause of serious concern and disappointment for the people of County Longford. A positive statement is required from the Minister to boost the commercial life of the area.
Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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The Senator has requested a debate and made his point, but he cannot go into detail on the matter.
Paul Coghlan (Fine Gael)
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I support and second Senator Hayes's call for a debate on Northern Ireland and the interim report of Mr. Justice Feargus Flood. Will the Leader inform the House of the Government's intentions regarding a possible amendment of the 20% social and affordable housing provision contained in the Planning and Development Act, 2000, and the withering rule regarding planning permissions? Will she also indicate the Government's intentions and proposals regarding libel law in the context of the report of the legal advisory group on defamation?
David Norris (Independent)
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A number of Senators have raised foreign affairs issues and I hope the Cathaoirleach will shortly be in a position to advise us of when the Joint Committee on Foreign Affairs will be established because many of these matters should be discussed in that forum.
With regard to Senator Ó Murchú's point regarding the people in Colombia, I also supported the Birmingham Six and the Guildford Four, but simply slapping a number after a name does not establish anyone's innocence. There are a number of murky circumstances regarding the men in Colombia which require a great deal of explanation. As there has been a great deal of prevarication, dishonesty and lying about the situation, simply describing the men as the Colombia Three does not establish their innocence.
I support the calls for the Flood tribunal report to be discussed. I was abroad all summer and the report was the only item of Irish news which appeared on international television. It is disquieting and must be dealt with as quickly and efficiently as possible with a proper debate in the House.
I welcome the visit of the President of the European Parliament, Mr. Cox, but ask for more information on the arrangements. As the Cathaoirleach and Leader know, when we have had distinguished visitors, they have often read out longwinded, factual, pre-prepared statements to the Seanad. They often took so long there was almost no time for questions other than those of the leaders. The essentially valuable ingredient of this system is that ordinary Members can question Mr. Cox. We know precisely what his position is, but, without being discourteous to such a distinguished person, I ask that he confine himself. We do not need to know the official position of the European Parliament – we already know what it is, it is coming out of our ears. I ask that we have as much time as possible for questions.
Kathleen O'Meara (Labour)
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In support of the comments made by my colleague in relation to the position of the Labour Party in the House—
Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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That matter does not arise on the Order of Business. It has been dealt with.
Kathleen O'Meara (Labour)
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I ask the Cathaoirleach to clarify the basis on which he makes a decision. I do not question his—
Kathleen O'Meara (Labour)
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I do not for one moment question your power of discretion and you will agree that the Labour Party in this House in the past five years and during my time here has always co-operated with the Cathaoirleach. I simply ask you, therefore, to clarify—
Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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I accept that and hope there will be co-operation. I sought co-operation rather than confrontation when I was elected, but I must make rulings.
Kathleen O'Meara (Labour)
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On what basis is seniority being used in terms of the Cathaoirleach's discretion?
Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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I have explained that and I ask the Senator to desist. Does she have a question for the Leader?
Kathleen O'Meara (Labour)
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I support the calls for a debate on Northern Ireland. We have had valuable debates on the issue at times of crisis before and I ask the Leader to convey to the Minister of Foreign Affairs and the Government that many in this House can make a valuable contribution, particularly people such as Senator Maurice Hayes who has a lot of experience. I also support calls for a full debate on the second interim report of the Flood tribunal.
The issue of interim barring orders was raised by Senator Higgins. Will the Leader consider statements on how the issue of domestic violence is handled? Major problems have developed with this issue and Members would be able to give enlightened views which would be of interest to the Government.
Michael Finucane (Fine Gael)
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Under the Broadcasting (Major Events Television Coverage) Bill, 1999, the Minister has power to schedule certain sporting and cultural events. The Minister announced a preliminary list going back to 17 July 2002. We are on the eve of an important match, yet it looks as if people will only have access to it through "Sky Sports". I understand the list is being presented to Cabinet today. Will the Leader take up the issue as a priority with the Minister for Communications, Marine and Natural Resources to ensure there is a satisfactory resolution and to make the match accessible to the many people who do not have access to "Sky Sports". This issue has gone on for three years and the Minister should put an end to procrastination and take action.
Shane Ross (Independent)
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I congratulate the Cathaoirleach on an excellent decision as regards the calling of speakers.
Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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I want no bouquets. Does the Senator have a question for the Leader?
Shane Ross (Independent)
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In a short time the Cathaoirleach has justified the greatness thrust upon him. None of us anticipated that.
Shane Ross (Independent)
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I make a plea in regard to the Order Paper. Three items are to be taken without debate and I would not like this to set a precedent for the House. There is one item which is not contentious in the current atmosphere but it might be in other circumstances. That item concerns the decision to invite a speaker. As a norm the invitation of a speaker should be discussed in the House. It is not a matter which should be left to the Committee on Procedure and Privileges. In certain circumstances, someone who is less, or more, controversial might be offensive to the House. Others might say that if the President of the European Parliament, Mr. Cox, was to be invited, and I look forward to hearing him, that someone from the other side of the Nice treaty debate should also be invited. This and other matters of the sort should not be without debate in the future. I am worried that this might set a precedent which would be referred to as the basis and the procedure by which we invite people. We would then get some very partisan people invited to address the House.
David Norris (Independent)
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The Senator invited Mother Teresa of Calcutta.
Shane Ross (Independent)
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And that was rejected after discussion.
Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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I ask Senators to address the Chair please.
Shane Ross (Independent)
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I wish, without interruption from my colleagues, to mention another point about the European Parliament's President, Mr. Cox. I do not see the need for him to speak for more than about five minutes. We know his position. Could we request that he—
Shane Ross (Independent)
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The Chair has done very well so far and I ask him to allow me to finish. Could we ask President Cox to restrict his remarks so that many Senators, rather than just spokespersons and leaders, will be able to ask useful questions?
Frank Feighan (Fine Gael)
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The Minister for Finance, Deputy McCreevy, announced in 1999 that over 10,000 State jobs would be decentralised to areas that have not already benefited from decentralisation. Nothing has happened in that regard in the past three years. He invited submissions from each county council and Roscommon County Council, of which I am a member, eagerly awaits an announcement from him. I ask the Leader of the House to invite the Minister for Finance to come to this House to say when he intends to make a decision and to outline the nature of that decision.
Don Lydon (Fianna Fail)
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Following the comments of Senators McDowell, Mooney and Norris, may I ask if a debate on the Middle East and other foreign affairs matters can be arranged? Such a debate would be pertinent as it seems almost inevitable that a war will take place. I would appreciate if such a debate could be held as soon as possible.
While I am on my feet, may I congratulate Senator Norris for enlivening my Saturday mornings with his recent regal performances?
Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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That is not relevant to the Order of Business.
Sheila Terry (Fine Gael)
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I ask the Leader of the House to arrange a debate with the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform, Deputy Michael McDowell, about important issues such as the link between homelessness and crime. I would like to hear how the Minister intends to deal with homeless young offenders who are found in many cities.
The Minister should outline how he intends to spend €8 million which has been allocated for special Garda projects. Does he intend to give funds to the BOND project in Blanchardstown, the Tower project in Tallaght and the Tivoli Training Centre in Dun Laoghaire? I would also like the Minister, when he comes to this House, to comment on proposed cutbacks in training and to clarify how this will affect the number of new recruits it is intended to accept.
Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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The Senator should bear in mind that queries on the Order of Business are a matter for the Leader of the House.
Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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They may be raised in a future debate with the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform.
Sheila Terry (Fine Gael)
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Will the Minister consider raising the retirement age for members of the Garda, as such a measure would help to maintain the strength of the force at a high level?
John Dardis (Progressive Democrats)
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Several Opposition Senators have asked for a debate on Northern Ireland and it is important to state that their concerns are shared on this side of the House. The peace process is encountering difficulties and I am sure all Senators hope it will survive intact. Senators calling for a debate should bear in mind the nature of the crisis in the North as the future of the power-sharing Executive there will not become clear until next week.
This House has a fine record of debates on Northern Ireland; we remember in particular those debates to which the late Gordon Wilson and Senator Maurice Hayes contributed. A degree of expertise and a restrained and responsible tone have always been evident in such debates. Given the present circumstances, it might be no harm if time could be found for a debate next week rather than tomorrow.
Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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Many of the 20 speakers on the Order of Business, including Senators Brian Hayes, O'Toole, McDowell, Mooney, Coghlan and O'Meara, spoke about the problems in the North and the issues surrounding the report of the Flood tribunal. Debates were requested on both issues.
I thank the Deputy Leader for his knowledgeable contribution on Northern Ireland, with which I concur. Tonight the Taoiseach and Prime Minister will hold talks in London, the outcome of which will be elucidated in the morning, but it will take days for that to filter through. It is a time of intense activity in Northern Ireland and each of us must carefully monitor what we say because of the sensitivities involved. The House has a reputation for its sensitivity on various matters and on Northern Ireland in particular. We all hope there is a satisfactory outcome and I hope we will have debate the issue next week. Senator Hayes sought such a debate tomorrow afternoon following the adddress by the President of the European Parliament, Pat Cox, but it would be prudent to schedule such a debate next week.
I also concur with the Senators who requested a debate on the Flood tribunal report. The Dáil is debating the report today and tomorrow and this House should also debate it. I will put the request to the Government Chief Whip and, subject to a meeting of the Whips, I hope the report will be debated next week.
Senators Mooney, O'Toole and others raised the need for a debate on foreign policy, with particular reference to Iraq. This issue was raised when we last met and I spoke to the Minister in the interim. The Minister intimated that he would be glad to come to the House to discuss the matter and arrangements for the debate will be worked out by the Whips.
Senator Norris referred to tomorrow's debate with the President of the European Parliament, Pat Cox, and stated he would like ordinary Members to have an opportunity to contribute. I will not tell Mr. Cox that he can only speak for a set time as that would be rude. He is a pragmatic person. When I invited to the House he asked that plenty of time be made available for statements and questions and answers. He does not want to be subject to the withering rule as he wants to hear what we have to say.
Senator Ross did not like the fact that the invitation to Mr. Cox to come to the House had become a matter for the Committee on Procedures and Privileges. However, I understand the invitation was subject to an earlier ruling that had been made following the Senator's proposal to invite somebody to the House which resulted in a bit of rí-rá.
Shane Ross (Independent)
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On a point of order, that was a different issue. I proposed that the person should come to the House. In this case a person has been invited to the House following acceptance by the Committee of Procedure and Privileges. It is a totally different issue.
Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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A ruling was made at the Committee on Procedure and Privileges that if someone wished to introduce the idea of a person addressing the House, it should be raised at the committee, as was done in this case. It is on the Order Paper without debate today as an announcement made out of courtesy so all Members of the House would know that the committee agreed to the address. Senator Ross wanted to restrict Mr. Cox's speech to five minutes. I would not be that discourteous to anyone. He has intimated very strongly that he wants to hear the views of Senators.
Senator Feighan would like to discuss decentralisation. I suggest that he raise the matter on the Adjournment. Senator Terry raised the issues of crime, young offenders, special projects and the retirement age of gardaí. Again, this could be discussed on the Adjournment or during her party's Private Members' time because the issue is so wide-ranging.
Senator Leydon raised the crisis in the beef industry and the need for the Competition Authority to revisit the area while Senator Jim Higgins spoke about the economy. The Fine Gael Party has a debate on the matter scheduled on the Order Paper.
Jim Higgins (Fine Gael)
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We would like that to be taken in Government time.
Jim Higgins (Fine Gael)
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That is what is in the motion on the Order Paper.
Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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Senator O'Meara called for the amendment of legislation because of today's decision in the courts. I will bring that to the attention of the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform because this could lead to a serious situation in many domestic violence cases very quickly. Senator Henry mentioned the report of the Inspector of Mental Institutions and requested a debate. The Whips will try to agree time for such a debate.
Senator Lydon called for a discussion on Iraq. That has been agreed and it is a matter of arranging time for the debate. The Minister has stated that he will readily come to the House to discuss it.
Senator Finucane raised the importance of an upcoming sports event on Sky Television. This was discussed in Cabinet this morning so we will see what the Government is doing and then decide what we will do.
Senator Ó Murchú raised the issue of the three Irish citizens being held in Colombia. I take the point that if a number is added, such as the Colombia this, the Birmingham that and the Guildford whatever, it could have the effect of creating a mystique around the issue because one or two cases were found to be sadly incorrect decisions. Senator Ó Murchú did not use the phrase "Colombia three", but asked that his comments be passed on to the Minister for Foreign Affairs and I will do that.
David Norris (Independent)
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The Leader can refer my comments to the Minister as well.
Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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It is hard to answer the comments of Senator Norris from the floor.
Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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That issue is one I have been reminded of by Senator Mooney. There is permanent attention to that trial by the Government's consular representative. I am glad of this because she is a formidable woman. I met her once and can say that she will maintain a very strong watching brief on the matter. I will convey the concerns of Senators regarding the issue.
I hope I have not left anyone out; if I did it was inadvertent. I have dealt as far as I can with the issues.
Brian Hayes (Fine Gael)
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I do not want to oppose No. 1 but I seek clarification of it. I respect what Senator Dardis said in relation to Northern Ireland, but I ask the Leader to reconsider this matter given its urgency and the fact that the House will not be in session tomorrow afternoon.
Brian Hayes (Fine Gael)
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I am not being disorderly.
Order of Business agreed to.