Paul Gavan (Sinn Fein) | Oireachtas source

I congratulate my trade union colleagues in the Labour Party on this short Bill. It has a very simple and clear purpose: to ban unpaid internships by bringing interns under the remit of minium wage legislation. It is a progressive Bill and something we should all be able to support. I am pleased to see the Minister of State is not opposing it at this stage. I hope there is genuine consultation after this evening to see how we can progress this Bill. It is very important.

It is very important to listen to the examples that we have been given this evening about internships that are clearly exploitation. There has been no end of them. They have probably reduced recently because the jobs market has changed quite significantly but it is still a massive issue. We should remind ourselves that it is not that long ago that Ireland's most famous fast food restaurant was taking people in for trials that they would never get paid for and they were never called back in for work. It was all over Joe Duffy's "Liveline" show just before the pandemic. It is something that happens all the time. Hopefully we all agree that exploiting young people is one of the worst things that can happen because it really sets them up very badly for life. One thing I have noticed is that the entry-level positions for jobs now ask for two or three years' experience. That is a fundamental change in the jobs market that was not there before. It puts people, particularly school leavers, at a severe disadvantage because how do they get that experience? If the only route open to them is unpaid internships that puts a particular problem in front of us. For wealthy families that might be something their sons and daughters can do and they will be fine but for working-class people, it makes life harder still. In terms of establishing a level playing field there is real merit in ensuring that people get paid for the work that they do. Therefore, I very much welcome the Bill.

There are some related issues around young people and low pay. Indeed the Minister of State touched on some of them. I am glad to hear him acknowledge this evening that we have too many people on low pay. When the Tánaiste was in here about a year ago, he disputed that with me. It is hard to dispute, however, because the OECD figures tell us that 23% of workers in the State, one in four, are on low pay. That is a very stark figure and one of the highest levels in the EU. It really tells a tale and particularly given the cost of living crisis that we face. There are workers struggling. They are at the end of their tether and they simply do not have the means to pay for their bills for their families and their food. Therefore I have a positive suggestion for the Minister of State. He always expects me to come up with positive suggestions and that is what I am going to do this evening. I would like him to take a leaf out of the book of my colleague the Minister of Finance, Conor Murphy in the North. What we have done in power in the North is make the Government a living wage employer. Anyone who gets a contract from the Government in the North has to pay their workers a living wage. Imagine how transformative such a proposal would be down here. I would really welcome a positive engagement on that topic. That is a way to really ensure that people who work for a living can earn a living. That is a major problem at the moment.

While we are talking about young people I want to address sub-minimum rates of pay. Again, I have a problem with that. I am lucky enough to have a 16-year-old working at the moment for a summer job. He is in transition year. He is getting the minimum wage and I am delighted. However there are too many young people getting paid €7.35 an hour, which is the legal sub-minimum rate of pay. They are doing exactly the same work as workers beside them but they are being paid more than €3 less an hour. I have to ask how is that fair? How can the Minister of State expect people, even young people, to live off €7.35 an hour? It is not right. It is not fair. The issue of sub-minimum rates of pay must be addressed.

Finally, the Minister of State will not be surprised that I raise this next point. If we are going to raise low pay, we have to give workers the means to negotiate for wage rises. If a group of workers in a private company get together and say they want to negotiate collectively with their employer they have no statutory right to do so. The employer can legally say that they will not negotiate. If that is the case, then where can they go? Where do they go for their wage rise? How do they increase their wages? You only have to look at the numbers of people who are dependent on working family payments to see that we have a massive problem here with people on pay that is too low. The solution is to give workers a statutory right to collective bargaining. It is an issue that the Minister of State and I have discussed many times. Unfortunately we do not seem to be on the same page. I believe that people should have a statutory right to collective bargaining. If workers want to come together and negotiate with their employer, they should have the legal right to do so. Unfortunately this Government and previous Governments have blocked that right. We need to have a further debate on that.

Returning to this evening's debate, it is very important. There have been valuable contributions from everyone. I think everyone acknowledges that there are real issues for young people. We need to do more. I would ask the Minister of State to reflect that if Britain, with, let us face it, a fairly backward Government, can pass legislation to ensure interns are paid it surely should not be beyond this Government to do the same. I hope that there is real engagement on the back of this evening's debate. I wish the Bill well and congratulate my colleagues in the Labour Party again.