Gerard Craughwell (Independent) | Oireachtas source

I thank my colleagues from the Labour Party. In the best traditions of the Labour Party, they introduced legislation for workers. I know Senator Sherlock did a lot of work on this. I have a difficulty with the proposed new provision in section 1, namely, section 2A(b), which refers to situations where "the worker does not expect and has no reason to expect payment". I see a loophole there for people to exploit those who might be taken in on work experience or internships, in that they might claim they stated at the outset that the people involved had no expectation of payment. The words "intern" and "work experience" have been bywords for exploitation in this country for as long as I can remember. Junior hospital doctors have been exploited by working for many more hours than the ordinary individual. They are paid, but by no means are they paid the sort of money they should be. Accounting trainees are exploited to the last, working for 18 hours a day in some cases. Young legal staff in solicitors' offices work for countless hours. Devilling takes place in the Law Library and some involved are not paid. The bottom line is that those particular terms have been used to exploit workers for as long as I can remember.

When I was a teacher, I placed students on work experience and instructed them that they are not there to run errands or make tea, but to experience the job. I placed one young fellow in a company in Galway. In his time there, he repaired a particular apparatus. He rang me near the end of the three-week period. He said the guy he was working for was charging for some of the work he did and asked what I thought he should do. I said to talk to him and say he wanted to be paid. He did so and the employer in question paid him. The employer said he never thought he should pay him but that he was right, since he did work that the employer received income for. Sometimes it is a misunderstanding, sometimes it is exploitation and sometimes it lies in the grey area that Senator Ahearn was talking about.

Senator Ahearn mentioned those who come into political life as interns. I have not seen it in recent times, but in the early days here, there were interns who got nothing and were sent out delivering leaflets and newsletters for the Member who they were working for. That was gross exploitation. It was wrong in every sense. That was not what they came here for. They came for what Senator Ahearn talked about, which is to experience political life, to see how legislation moves through the House, and to get involved in research and such. I do not believe Senator Ahearn or any of his colleagues today would want to engage in that sort of thing.

We need to step back and look at how workers are exploited in this country. We need to look at the terms "intern" and "work experience". Both of those terms are misused and misunderstood. Young graduates coming out of college are expected to work in a company for a year, to be grateful for it and to get no income. That is just nonsense. It used to be a rite of passage to give all of this time, but times have changed. Rents are high in Dublin. Parents are stretched to their collars trying to keep families going. It is right and proper that work that benefits an organisation is paid for by the organisation. I know of no intern who is genuinely shadowing another professional all the time. If they are involved in the professions and are given work, it should be paid.It is work that is quantifiable and verifiable. I am really anxious that we look at that.

I understand the question around working with or for family. Clearly there is a likelihood that someone will inherit into the organisation and that is probably a good thing.

I can see no apprenticeship that should not pay. Back when I was a lad young fellows left school and I think £2.50 a week was what they got when they started an apprenticeship and they moved up the salary scale as they went through it. I have known the Minister of State for a long time and I do not believe he would want to see any worker exploited. I see he has accepted this Bill, which is to his credit. We need to be more serious about what internships and work experience is about. There is a role here for the Workplace Relations Commission to educate employers. We are in a new world and we have to educate employers, as well as those who place students into an internship or a work experience programme.

I was always very careful to advise the students we placed in an internship or work experience programme as to what was regarded as work experience and what was exploitation. They were not there to make tea, sweep the floors or clean up in the evening. They were there to learn and part of the learning was working and part of the working was work that generated income for the organisation. That has to be the key measure. If there is an income-generating aspect of the work experience, then that has to be paid for although how we quantify it might be difficult.

I am out of time. I thank Senator Sherlock. It is a great piece of work. We might talk about the little line that I am not comfortable with. I do not want to leave any room for exploitation here. I really congratulate her. It is a great piece of work by both of the Senators.