Garret Ahearn (Fine Gael) | Oireachtas source

I welcome the Minister of State. I thank Senator Sherlock and the Labour Party for tabling this Bill. It is important to have a good discussion about it. It comes at the right time to increase workers' protections and rights. As most of us who are on the Joint Committee on Enterprise, Trade and Employment know, the Tánaiste and Minister of State are progressing much legislation to protect workers' rights, whether it relates to sick pay, remote working or the right to disconnect. Much of what the committee is doing, which the Government has committed to, relates to workers' rights. As has been said, the Government, including Fine Gael, is not opposing this legislation, but it is important to discuss it further.

Senator Sherlock is obviously not saying that every single person should be paid, including people who are shadowing others for experience. We sometimes find that people who are shadowing are behind a desk for another part of the day. There is vagueness about who is an intern and who is not. It is subjective, with employers possibly stating that they think people are only interns who are shadowing people, when they could be doing some work as well as shadowing. We need to tease through that. In her contribution, Senator Sherlock said internships can be a disadvantage depending on people's social backgrounds. I get that and entirely agree with the Senator. She said that not enough research is done on internships in Ireland, though there is sufficient research in the UK and elsewhere. We probably need more research to be done. It is logical to say that what Senator Sherlock said is true. If people are not from a background where they have the advantage of their parents paying for their accommodation or upkeep for a while when they are doing an internship, they are at a disadvantage.

The existing law was clarified by the Workplace Relations Commission in May 2019, which stated that the National Minimum Wage Act applies to all individuals engaged under a contract of employment. The law defines a contract as employment as a "contract whereby an individual agrees with another person to do or perform personally any work or service for that person or a third person". The law exists for someone who works. It is important to ensure that employers are not taking advantage of people. Young people could easily be taken advantage of. They might feel that they have a great opportunity or that this is their one chance to get into a big company or a big-name profession to start their career, but they are actually just being used and taken advantage of. While we might already have legislation in place, law to protect those people is important. It is an interesting discussion that we can work on in a cross-party way to protect the rights of interns.

We are focusing on the point of protecting people and people being used or abused in a certain way at work, but there is a positive element to internships too, which Senator Sherlock focused on in her contribution. We do not have to look too far. This House shows the positivity that internships can have. People see the role of politics and what is involved by spending a number of weeks here, then decide whether politics is a role for them or not. We see that every week in the Houses. We know people who have started in internships and now work here full-time. Members of this House started as internships, then worked, and are now Members. It plays a key role in determining someone's career. We should not take away from that. I welcome the debate. I thank the Labour Party, particularly Senators Sherlock and Wall.