Marie Sherlock (Labour) | Oireachtas source

I thank the Minister of State and Senators Crowe, Ahearn, Craughwell, Wall and Gavan for all their contributions this evening and for their support for the Bill. Senator Gavan touched on a wide range of issues regarding low pay and the living standards of workers in this country. This Bill is a drop in the ocean in terms of what needs to be done but it is an important one for what we estimate to be a few thousand workers out there. I am heartened by the support for the Bill. Support is one thing and enacting it, or something similar, is another. However, I was struck by the recurring question posed about whether interns are already provided for in existing legislation. If that is the case, it is hard for me to get my head around a Government standing over a widespread breach of a national minimum wage Act. We know there are breaches left, right and centre for workers of all ages but particularly in the context of internships because we see them advertised. We have seen public bodies advertise unpaid internships. There has been no response by the Government, which believes that this matter is already covered by legislation. There is a real question about that. I do not believe that internships are sufficiently covered by existing legislation. That is why we have this Bill here this evening.

To send a message out to employers and workers of all ages, but particularly young workers, it is really important that we would have legislation governing interns. It is a bit like saying there is no such thing as platform working; everyone is just a worker anyway. They are either self-employed or an employee.An internship is a distinct form of employment, typically seen as a training period for under or over a year, whatever, and that needs to be accorded a proper legal definition and the rights with regard to pay following from that.

Senator Ahearn touched upon a very interesting point in respect of the grey area between shadowing and doing actual work. It is completely true that there are, of course, difficulties in identifying when a situation is shadowing or otherwise but we have to look at the context of where a person is working. Are they working for a family member or in the context of training that is directly contributing to an educational qualification? If we look at it through that framework, we resolve the issues in regard to shadowing and the actual work. I say that with a degree of discomfort because all work should be paid and anybody undertaking an internship in the context of their education should be paid. We were conscious in putting this forward this evening that we want to try to get as much support for it as we can. We will be bringing amendments if and when we ever do get to Committee Stage.

The second thing relates to an issue raised by Senator Craughwell about the proposed section (2A)(b) and to re-assure him, and I am aware that he is not present in the Chamber but he can read the record, that it is important to say where it refers to the expectation of payment that it sets out the three conditions upon which there would be an exemption.

I conclude by saying there needs to be more research to arrive at a better understanding of internships in this country and that is something that could certainly be commissioned by the Government. I am certain that there is a level of understanding out there that internships, for the most part, can often be unpaid and there is an expectation on the part of employers that if they offer an internship, that they do not have to pay. That is a major loophole in our legislative framework in this country and is something that needs to be fixed. Gabhaim buíochas.