Paul Bradford (Fine Gael)

I welcome the legislation and thank the Minister for his balanced and nuanced presentation. Senator Denis O'Donovan has noted how surprising it is that in 2012 we still have to deal with such tragic circumstances. It is a sad reflection on Irish society that a significant minority of adults and, even more tragically, a significant minority of children have suffered or continue to suffer abuse. That is the reality with which we must deal politically. At the other end of the age spectrum, many vulnerable elderly persons face difficulties, in their home environments or in care settings. It is appropriate that these circumstances be part of our response to this issue.

Second Stage offers us the opportunity to make some general comments, but this will be an interesting debate when we reach Committee Stage. I am glad the Bill has been introduced in the Seanad because it is a challenge to us to face the difficult questions and table constructive amendments on which I am sure the Minister will engage with us.

The primary purpose of the Bill is to close a loophole. We are not suddenly starting from scratch; the legislation has to be taken in conjunction with that which will be brought forward by the Minister for Children and Youth Affairs which we all hope will significantly improve the lot of children and vulnerable adults. The Bill will not, of course, entirely solve the problem of the sexual abuse of children, a cancer in society. Strong new laws are needed in this regard, but the law on its own will not change society. We must think and act beyond the law.

The hearings at the Joint Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality were interesting. I compliment the Minister on the concept of bringing legislation to the committee, holding hearings and teasing out issues arising from submissions. On this occasion there were a number of written presentations and four oral presentations by the Rape Crisis Centre, One In Four, CARI and an individual. What was most interesting about the submissions and dialogue with the groups represented, particularly the three advocacy groups, was that none of them claimed to have all the answers. I thought that was a healthy approach; they had doubts even about what we were trying to do today. They highlighted the need for defence clauses such as those the Minister is introducing. I had expected them to demand certain measures, claiming they would solve the problem. It was reassuring, however, to see they had as many doubts as we had. Our engagement was very positive and the fruits are visible in the legislation, particularly in the possible defence clauses.

It was also helpful in broadening the debate that each and every one of the presenters on the day in question reminded Members, as did Senator Denis O'Donovan and the Minister, of the inconvenient and uncomfortable truth that in the vast majority of cases the abuse of children occurs in the family or is perpetrated by a neighbour in the community. That is shocking. The headlines portray a different story - a problem for the church, the swimming club or the GAA club - however, in the majority of cases the abuse does not happen behind the alter, in the swimming poor or at the sports field but much closer to home. This is a problem that requires a number of responses, as well as substantial investigation, including psychological investigation.

Our colleague, Senator Rónán Mullen, made an interesting observation at the hearings in recalling a television advertisement on abuse which, as I recall it, was carried on South African television. He inquired whether we should run a campaign challenging people to contemplate the possibility of abuse taking place in the home. We have had graphic advertising of the effects of car crashes, smoking and alcohol abuse. Cases of abuse are happening all over the country but remain hidden, yet people know it is happening. We must challenge the public mindset to wonder about some of these cases of abuse. While graphic advertising would be uncomfortable and inconvenient, it might be necessary.

I wish to comment on the defence clauses that will apply in certain circumstances to family members and the medical and counselling professions. From an initial reading of the legislation, it appeared that if one was aware of abuse, the decision was simple - one had to report it. I understand the reason these opt-out clauses are necessary, but we must go into the matter in greater detail on Committee Stage.

The Minister has been very balanced on the question of sacerdotal privilege, the seal of the confessional box. He pointed out that in the criminal offences identified in the Ryan, Murphy and Cloyne reports on clerical sex abuse, none had arisen from tales told in the confessional box. The Bill does not provide for an opt-out clause for information heard in the confessional box. We will also have an opportunity on Committee Stage to address the issue of protection of religious freedom under the Constitution and how this might have an impact on the Bill, but the Minister's comments should be reassuring to those who might have had concerns on religious grounds.

I welcome the provisions dealing with vulnerable adults. In addition to the shocking cases of child abuse, we have had shocking revelations of the abuse of the elderly in a few nursing homes. I trust the provisions of the Bill will prove helpful and complement the legislation on whistleblowing.

The offences listed in the Schedules to the Bill differ. In Schedule 1 covering offences against children, one set of offences is listed, whereas in schedule 2 there is a shorter list of offences against vulnerable adults. Will the Minister outline the reasons for this discrepancy?

I look forward to constructive engagement on Committee Stage. Concerns have been expressed by people of all shades of opinion about aspects of the Bill, most of which we can satisfy. Others might think the Bill is a panacea that will solve problems and make them go away, but, sadly, that is not the case. The Criminal Justice (Withholding of Information on Offences Against Children and Vulnerable Persons) Bill 2012, in addition to the proposed Children First legislation and Children First guidelines, will not solve all of the difficulties, but it will prove helpful. We must get to the bottom of the weird and warped thinking which causes many of them. This will require a major campaign of education and examination. I thank the Minister for being present to discuss this important Bill and look forward to the Committee Stage debate.