Denis O'Donovan (Fianna Fail)

I welcome the Minister to the House and I also welcome the Bill. I compliment the Minister on introducing the legislation in the Seanad on Second Stage.

Senator Norris made a point about Members sharing time but he is on the wrong track. The matter was raised within the CPP as a housekeeping issue and it was not a Government edict or mandate. I concur with my colleague, Senator Bacik, that the matter can be reviewed, if necessary. My view is that a senior spokesperson with a particular portfolio or brief should not share time because it does reflect well on the Seanad.

I broadly agree with the Minister's comments on the Bill. The legislation went before the all-party Oireachtas Joint Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality and interesting submissions were received from a number of groups. It is a worthwhile exercise and is a departure by the Government that Bills come before the Houses for vetting by the related committee. That is a good thing.

As I do not wish to go into the full details of the Bill and wish to avoid repeating what the Minister has said, I have instead a number of queries for him. I have raised the following issue on a number of times in the House, not alone in this Seanad but also in previous ones. When is it proposed to hold the promised referendum on the rights of children? It is a central plank of this plethora of Bills governing the rights of children and the protection of children and vulnerable people. In the previous Seanad the then Leader of the Opposition and now Minister for Children and Youth Affairs, Deputy Frances Fitzgerald, along with others, was very animated on many occasions about the delay in holding the referendum. I examined the Bill as a former chairman of the All-Party Committee on the Constitution many years ago and I am deeply concerned that it has taken a lot longer to hold a referendum than was ever envisaged by not just the last Government but also the preceding one. I urge the Minister for Justice and Equality when he attends Cabinet meetings to endeavour, as far as possible, to bring the referendum forward. I have made the point on numerous occasions that if a referendum on children's rights takes place, their rights will be upgraded as opposed to being protected within the family. The referendum should stand alone and not be confused with other referenda, which would create problems in the minds of the public.

I read the Ryan report and most of the Cloyne report and the abuse was appalling. The Murphy report was another report on abuse. There is a perception, probably a wrong one, that all the abuse of children, especially the sexual abuse, was primarily related to religious orders and priests. As the Minister will be aware, statistics show that fewer than one in ten of abuse cases were perpetrated clerics. Yesterday or the day before, I read that a former cleric was jailed for the persistent violation of a vulnerable person. That is welcome news.

What is the Minister's view on the interesting proposal by Cardinal Seán Brady that a cross-Border investigation be conducted into the Brendan Smyth affair?

If there was a cleric who epitomised the villainy, thuggery and serious nature of continuous child abuse, it was Fr. Brendan Smyth. I was in this House when that saga caused the collapse of the then Fianna Fáil-Labour Party Government and it is now, to put it mildly, affecting the position of the Catholic Primate of All Ireland, Cardinal Brady. I saw some merit in the Cardinal's point that an investigation would give context to the despicable scenario of clerical child abuse that has been ongoing for several decades. However, it flies in the face of our religious beliefs such as "suffer little children who come unto me".

It is important to note that there are certain exceptions and defences. I read in a number of newspapers - the Minister referred to it as an obsession - about the protection of what a priest would be told in a confessional. Under existing legislation, the angle is covered, irrespective of what is included in the new legislation. The protection, moral or legal, of a priest who is told about a matter in a confessional is sacrosanct, but this legislation opens up the issue.

I read with interest that in the course of the joint committee's public hearings it was stressed the legislation should not have unintended consequences for victims, which would be ultimately self-defeating in reporting abuse. As the Minister probably read this, I would like him to elaborate on the measures he has taken in the Bill to address this concern. There is no doubt about the importance of this legislation; it is part of a jigsaw of several Bills.

It is hard to believe in 2012 that we are legislating to protect vulnerable adults and young people. It is a sad reflection on our society. I note that the Irish Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Children recently launched the findings of a survey of child protection. It found that 87% considered there was not enough information available on child protection and welfare issues. This is staggering. Of those surveyed, 57% said they would be nervous or unsure about reporting, or would not report a suspected case of child abuse or neglect. That is worrying. It was considered by 83% that children's rights were not protected to the same extent as adults' rights. A balance must be struck. When the all-party Oireachtas committee on the Constitution was addressing the need for a children's rights referendum, the importance of striking the right balance was emphasised. We do not want situation where a bright, belligerent teenager would invoke the Constitution to make life hell for his or her parents.

Fianna Fáil welcomes the Bill. While I cannot envisage it, I would not rule out tabling amendments on Committee or Report Stages, but we wholeheartedly welcome this legislation. I hope it will be an extra weapon in the legislative armoury available to protect vulnerable persons, particularly children.