Jillian van Turnhout (Independent)

I welcome the Minister and commend him for initiating the Bill in the Seanad. The seriousness of the subject matter cannot be overstated and I assure him of my full support.

When I look at Schedule 1 offences against children, including murder, rape, incest, child trafficking and child pornography, the gravest offences against the bodily integrity and well-being of a child, I find it incredible that we need legislation to ensure they are reported to the Garda Síochána. However, we do need the legislation, as we know following the Ferns, Ryan, Murphy and Cloyne reports that there was the systematic abuse and exploitation of tens of thousands of vulnerable children in State and church-run institutions. We also know it from the current discourse on the calls for Cardinal Seán Brady's resignation. This is not only about clerical and institutional abuse, as the Minister referred to children knowing the perpetrators and Rape Crisis Network Ireland has clearly shown that 80% of childhood sexual abuse victims are abused by someone known to them, including immediate family members, relatives and family friends. Some 12% are abused by a person in authority, that is, a teacher, a coach or a priest; 3% by strangers and 5% by others. In effect, 92% of perpetrators are known to the family or trusted by the child. That is the reality. We need only look at the Roscommon child abuse case in 2009 and the chronic and spectacular failure of social services to intervene decisively over a 15 year period, even in the face of overwhelming evidence of serious abuse and neglect. We know there has been a serious failing on the part of ordinary Irish citizens to speak about the abuse and mistreatment of children, where it is known to have occurred. The Amnesty International report, In Plain Sight, in responding to the Ferns, Ryan, Murphy and Cloyne reports, provides an excellent insight into this collective social failing which was well summarised by the Minister for Children and Youth Affairs, Deputy Frances Fitzgerald, when she launched the report last September. She said:

At every turn, Irish people kept their mouths shut out of deference to state, system, Church and community. When they should have been unified in fury and outrage they were instead silenced, afraid even to whisper a criticism against the powerful.

While we cannot focus only on the past, we cannot ignore its relevance in contemporary Ireland.

The executive director of Amnesty International Ireland, Colm O'Gorman, has said "the past only becomes history once we have addressed it, learnt from it and made the changes necessary to ensure that we do not repeat mistakes and wrongdoing". As a children's rights activist, I am heartened by the dedication and commitment of the Minister and his Government colleagues to ensuring a dedicated and effective system of child protection is put in place in Ireland. There needs to be a move away from the rhetoric of the past towards making the changes necessary to ensure we do not repeat the mistakes that were made when wrong-doing took place previously.

The Departments of Justice and Equality and Children and Youth Affairs are at the coalface of the process of introducing the suite of legislative reform that is necessary to strengthen child protection and protect vulnerable people. I welcome the two-pronged approach being taken to ensure the full reporting of offences committed against children, or suspicions of such, will be required under this Bill and the Children First Bill. It is vital we debate both Bills constructively to ensure they are as robust as possible.

I wish to raise some points of concern with this in mind. As I do not have the privilege of being a member of the Joint Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality, I did not have an opportunity to elaborate on my concerns at that forum. I would like to mention the excellent and useful Bills digest that was provided to us by the Oireachtas Library and Research Service yesterday.

This Bill and the Children First Bill will introduce separate mandatory reporting schemes. As the Minister usefully outlined, there are significant differences between the two schemes. The differences relate to the people who are bound to report offences, the severity of the offences to be reported, the degree of certainty required to activate the obligation and the authorities to whom the people must report offences. My concern relates to the interplay between the two reporting schemes. It is important to ensure people have confidence and certainty about the statutory obligations that are being introduced, as well as about the moral obligations they will have in a scenario that falls outside the remit of either enactment. It must be made very clear to people who fall outside the remit of the Children First national guidance, that is, any member of the public, that any concern they might have about abuse taking place can and should be reported. We need to make that absolutely clear.

The Minister has explained the difference between reporting to the Garda and reporting to the HSE. One of the difficulties with that - it could lead to a lack of clarity - is that the HSE does not provide a 24-hour service seven days a week. Members of organisations have been told that if the HSE is not available, they should report a concern about a child to the Garda. I accept these mixed messages are not of the Minister's making. I am concerned to ensure we are clear about this. First, there is a concern that abuse or Schedule 1 offences will go unreported if people misunderstand the need to know or believe an offence has been committed in order to report it, as distinct from invoking a statutory obligation to report it. There needs to be an understanding of what is meant by know or believe. Second, if people undertake to probe or investigate their concerns, to gain the higher threshold of certainty set out in this Bill, they might inadvertently do damage to the child or vulnerable person in question. I wish to make it clear that I do not disagree with the degree of certainty required in the Bill, but I am concerned the spectrum of offences covered by the clarity provision is very wide and the positive obligation put on individuals to report offences is a significant one. Relevant offences could conceivably range from a person witnessing a section 3 assault on a child or vulnerable person to a person having knowledge of child trafficking or rape.

I understand the purpose and intent of the Bill and the specific scenarios and circumstances it ultimately aims to remedy. In fact, the Bill is applicable to a much broader spectrum of situations. If we are to protect fully the victims of abuse and the rights of individuals who may find themselves subject to prosecutions under the provisions of this legislation, we must consider and address all its potential applications and ensure it is tailored adequately. I do not doubt we will be able to probe this complex Bill on Committee Stage. It is loaded with caveats and exceptions for very good reasons. I am concerned it is not sufficiently understandable and accessible to the public at which is targeted. When this Bill progresses through the various Stages, it will be essential to send a clear message to everyone that it will not be permissible to withhold information on offences against children or vulnerable people.

I reiterate our gratitude to the Minister for bringing the heads of this Bill to the joint committee before initiating it in the Seanad. I understand similar work is being done on the national vetting bureau Bill. We look forward to dealing with that. The Minister, Deputy Fitzgerald, is taking a similar approach as she works on the Children First guidance Bill, the heads of which will be considered by a joint committee. These measures, coupled with the referendum that is promised later this year to strengthen children's rights in the Constitution, represent a watershed in the value that is given to childhood in Ireland. For far too long, we have examined these issues in an historical context. The Ministers, Deputies Shatter and Fitzgerald, have clearly demonstrated the Government's clear commitment to moving away from the rhetoric of the past and towards using the full rigours of the law to realise children's rights now and in the future. I thank them for that.