Feargal Quinn (Independent)

I welcome the Minister of State, Deputy Barry Andrews. The Minister for Justice and Law Reform's contribution was very interesting and I learned much from it. He said 1,900 new prison places have been created in recent years. I saw a television programme the other night called "Bad Fellas". Afterwards, I spoke to a former Garda Commissioner who updated me on some of the figures. The figures jolted me in that back in the 1950s and 1960s, there was almost no crime. In one year, there were four murders, none of which involved guns. The way the situation has changed in recent years is quite dramatic and, therefore, I understand the need for more prison places and the fact we do not have enough.

I welcome this debate which is timely because we need to examine how we implement new ways of administering justice given the state of our prisons. I was struck by the description by the Inspector of Prisons and Places of Detention, Judge Michael Reilly, to whom Senator Regan referred, of the chaotic slopping out of cells each morning in Limerick and Mountjoy where up to three people share cells designed for one person.

In July, Limerick's male prison held 75% more prisoners than it was designed to hold and the Dóchas women's prison in Dublin held almost twice the number it was designed to hold. It is fair to say that conditions in overcrowded prisons have the ability to torment inmates with noise, violence and the lack of any semblance of privacy or breathing room, and greatly reduce the capacity to rehabilitate offenders. We need to place that higher on the agenda than we have in the past. It is difficult to believe this inspection of prisons found there is no clear policy to deal with the issues of overcrowding, drug use and the reporting of deaths in prison. Overcrowding was highlighted as by far the biggest problem.

In 1994, on the first occasion I spoke on prisons - I had just been elected to the House the year before - I said there were reasons for prisons, namely, to deter people from criminal activity, to protect society, to administer punishment and to rehabilitate the offender, although not necessarily in that order. It is a very difficult task to cover all those areas. There is an argument to be made that overcrowded prisons cannot rehabilitate. Overcrowding does not give the inmate the proper chance to reflect. Owing to the conditions in the prison, it may make them think of themselves more as victims than perpetrators.

Work is being done and it was interesting to hear the Minister talk about it. I was chairman of an education committee which visited Wheatfield Prison some years ago. I am ashamed to say it was the only time I was in a prison and I really must learn a little more about them. I was impressed by the amount of work being done on education and training. Work is being done and the Minister spoke about it, so we must not paint everything with the same brush and say it is not possible to educate. Senator O'Donovan spoke about a man he knew who went into prison but who was educated on how to break into houses and steal cars. There is a difficulty in terms of how we handle this.

One of the areas we should debate urgently is the early release of certain prisoners due to limited space. I was impressed by the case of an American, about whom I read, who was given a 27-month sentence, plus 1,500 hours of community service and a $400,000 fine. He was deemed a non-violent criminal. What was interesting was that he was instructed that his 27-month sentence could be served at home. Such criminals are supervised at home which includes testing them for drugs, including alcohol. Not only does this make more room in the prisons, it also saves money. Some criminologists believe that if criminals saw a clear distinction between the sentences violent and non-violent criminals receive, they might make less violent behaviour choices. I do not believe we have taken that into account in our sentencing.

Could we use some of the NAMA apartment blocks to house some prisoners based on the open-type Scandinavian model which would see prisoners moved from overcrowded prisons to empty housing estates and being supervised in making the transition back to normal society? Senator O'Donovan's story of the man who went to prison and ended up being taught more about how to commit crime is a reminder that we must rehabilitate in some form or another. Could the Government consider using some empty apartment blocks or houses in the way I describe to alleviate some of the pressure on the prison service? This proposal is also related to the use of electronic tagging. The Minister said an experiment on testing it is being carried out involving 20 people and that the Government will examine its use here. The measure has allowed other countries to reduce dramatically their prison populations. I was pleased to hear the Minister say that some steps have been taken in this respect and that the Government is examining this option, but what is holding us back from progressing in this area? We have been talking about this measure for many years and it has been in place in other countries for many years, yet the Minister said it does not seem to work and a very limited test of its use is being carried out.

Should we seek to use some of the money saved from imprisoning people on therapy and counselling services and on investing in the work of probation and welfare officers? It is in society's interest to help offenders to cope. Every prisoner the prison service is able to keep on the straight and narrow is a saving in money terms and a protection for society. We must bear in mind the effect of media pressure on imprisonment and overcrowding. Tabloid newspapers unjustly highlight and hound judges who they deem to pass, or even seek to justify, lenient sentences. Due to the fact that most people's experience of the criminal justice system is quite limited - certainly it is in my case - such coverage strongly influences the public mood and some say it even influences the way judges make decisions.

Perhaps we should also consider more the option of community service - we have taken the first steps in that direction - when it comes to sentencing instead of locking people up. We must also examine ways of speeding up trials instead of letting people linger in prison. Many other options are open when it comes to addressing overcrowding. Given the current inadequate conditions in place in many prisons and taking into account the finances of the State, we must consider some of the alternatives without delay.

We cannot solve the problem of crime but we can solve the problem of overcrowding in prisons. We need to find and guide those who can best benefit from supervised releases.

I was pleased to hear, although I know others would not agree with me, that the Thornton Hall project is to go ahead. There is huge disagreement on this but at least a step is being taken. The project will take some time to complete. If we are to achieve what we set out to achieve, we must make sure we have a better prison service than we have had in the past.

The Minister's contribution was interesting, particularly regarding the number of prisoners imprisoned. If those figures are, as I understood the Minister to indicate, much lower than other countries, the problem is not as big as I thought it was compared to others. However, it is still a big problem and a difficulty.

There is a big fuss in Britain because European regulations have insisted that prisoners must have a vote. We have passed such legislation some time back. The Minister might remind us of the position on that. This issue is a big fuss in Britain because the British do not like being told what to do by Brussels. I am pleased to think that at least we have a system in operation, to the best of my knowledge, that enables our prisoners to have a vote and be full citizens.

I am delighted Senator Bacik sought this debate. It has been useful. It forces us to give our attention to a topic that has not got the attention it deserved over the years. Senator Bacik has sought this debate on a regular basis for some time. I am pleased the Minister came into the House and gave us almost a full hour of information on this area which I found very educational. I welcome the debate. It will help to influence the decisions the State makes in addressing this serious challenge.