Denis O'Donovan (Fianna Fail)

I welcome the Minister to the House and this debate on prisons in general. I have been a Member of the House for 17 years and in the period 1994 to 1997, the coalition Government made a decision that cancelled all capital expenditure on prisons, the effect of which was to leave the incoming Government in 1997 playing catch-up with the provision of prison spaces and prison development. This is a matter of record.

This debate on prisons should be placed in context. I acknowledge difficulties exist in the system. I refer in particular to Mountjoy Prison, its capacity and its physical and other failings. Our prison system should be placed in an international context. I have visited prisons in America, Asia and the southern hemisphere and prison facilities in this country are well ahead of the average prison in Europe and throughout the world. I dealt with the case of a European national who served some time as a remand prisoner in one of the southern states of the United States and who was released without charge after 14 months. He was an elderly gentleman from a European country and the story of his incarceration was frightening as he described the experience of being locked up and the lack of facilities. Prisoners are much better treated in this country. I refer to the statistics from Belgium, France, Italy and Spain which show that Ireland is well ahead of the United Kingdom in terms of the provision of prison spaces and in terms of the number of prisoners per head of population.

A substantial number of prison spaces have been provided since 1997 when the Fianna Fáil-led Government came into office but there may not be sufficient spaces to meet current needs. There has been a tendency to imprison people and to create statistical difficulties by incarcerating people for minor offences. I welcome recent legislation which provides that committal to prison will be a last resort.

I have some questions for the Minister. Is it possible to entirely stamp out the supply of drugs within prisons? I welcome the recent installation of security nets and the general improvement in security measures in Mountjoy Prison in particular. I was deeply concerned when I visited Mountjoy in my capacity as a solicitor on three or four occasions and as a member of the visiting committee. I noted the availability of drugs and mobile phones within Mountjoy and this was of great concern to me. I also visited the Midlands Prison a few years ago. I commend the significant measures introduced by the Irish Prison Service to ensure drugs are not brought into the prisons and that mobile phones are not freely available to inmates.

Putting people into prison for minor offences such as non-payment of civil debts and small fines is inappropriate. I am pleased we are moving away from this practice and the Minister is pursuing a policy to ensure this will be the exception rather than the rule. From my knowledge of the District and Circuit courts, it used to be the practice that people would be committed for 14 to 28 days for the non-payment of relatively minor fines. This involved the cost and logistics of conveying them from west Cork to Limerick or Cork prisons only for them to be released a matter of days later.

I raised the following matter in previous debates in the House. I was very concerned at the lack of counselling and psychotherapy services available to prisoners. My interest stemmed from a chance meeting with a clinical psychologist who worked in a prison. He outlined to me that his work was very limited in the prison as he only attended one day a week for three or four hours. He acknowledged that such treatment is not appropriate for all prisoners but others welcomed it and he believed it had a very positive effect on their rehabilitation. We have a duty as a society to ensure rehabilitation of prisoners takes place. Treatment is essential and should be provided for those with drugs or alcohol addictions or for those suffering from mental disorders such as depression. I represented a person both in the District Court and on appeal. It was obvious to me within an hour of taking instructions from him that he had suffered from abuse as a young lad. He was very depressed and he turned to alcohol as a crutch. Committing him to prison was probably not the best idea but he had committed a crime and was convicted. Before he was taken away he begged me to help him as he was a young man and he wanted to get his life in order. He was sentenced to seven years and this would not help his rehabilitation. The provision of psychologists and other experts for prisoners should be considered.

I recall an incident, probably 25 years ago if not more, involving three or four individuals. A fisheries officer boarded a small fishing vessel. A row broke out and the fisheries officer got a belt of a gaff, which is like a stick for hauling pots. The case of one of the men, who I believe never should have gone to prison, was handled badly. He was not a criminal but was just on a boat when a row developed and his participation in it was minimal. When I asked him how he got on in prison, he said he was told how to rob and break into cars, how to rob a till if a barman or shopkeeper had his or her back turned and how to lift televisions and so on. He was amazed that was what he learned in prison. That was a long time ago but people who do not have a criminal background are sent to prison for relatively minor crimes and are incarcerated with prisoners who are career criminals and they do not come out rehabilitated. Fortunately, the man about whom I spoke is alive and well and was in no way contaminated by his three-month stay in prison.

What was the running cost of our prisons in 2008 or 2009 compared with 1996? What does it cost the taxpayers to keep a prisoner in prison for a year? We should be mindful of costs due to the recession.

From my knowledge of and practice in the legal profession, the use of the probation of offenders legislation has worked very well. I compliment the work of juvenile liaison officers in ensuring young people at the periphery of crime are taken aside and given a proverbial kick up the backside. From my knowledge of how they work with local gardaí, they have a huge success rate with young lads who might have committed relatively minor offences.

Could community employment schemes be used in some way in tandem with community service orders? Such orders are great but they must be extended. Could people who do community service for no pay be in some way integrated into a community employment scheme? In my neck of the woods in west Cork, they would be involved in maintaining waymarked ways, hill walks, playgrounds and so on. They could get involved in the community and do some productive work.

I welcome the debate on this very important issue and acknowledge the major steps which have been taken not only by this Government but by Governments since 1997 in the provision of prison places and legislation to improve the lot not only of prisoners but of people who should not be in prison and who are dealt with by the probation of offenders legislation or by community service orders and so on. Significant strides have occurred in the past 13 years since I was elected to this House in 1997.