Mary White (Fianna Fail)

I welcome the Minister. The question of prison and our policy on imprisonment is a societal one. It feeds into our view of prison as a primary tool in reforming people or punishing people. It is a societal question because there are financial costs involved. According the Irish Prison Service's annual report, the average annual cost of providing a prison space in 2009 was €77,000 and there are the non-financial implications for family and community structures.

Progress is being made on the issue of our prisons but I draw attention to specific issues. The first issue is alternatives to prison. Imprisonment, as far as possible, should be a criminal sanction, however, I understand that in certain instances and in particularly grave situations that it should be a resort of the civil law procedure.

I compliment the Minister, his staff and in particular the probation service on a comprehensive analysis on the operation and effectiveness of the community service scheme. In its 2009 annual report, value for money, and the policy review of the community service scheme, the authors set out clearly the advantages of community service as an alternative to imprisonment. These include the ability of offenders to remain in work or education, to remain within the family unit and the community, to learn basic skills and to deliver reparation for the offence. The community also benefits from the work that will otherwise not get done.

The existing scheme operating at full capacity could provide supervision services to three times as many offenders. It is currently operating at only 33% of its potential. Community service schemes cost appropriately 15.6% of the cost of imprisonment on a full cost basis.

Last night at our pre-budget meeting the Minister, Deputy Dermot Ahern, pointedly stated he would push forward the issue of community service for offences, which is a relief and, thankfully, he will do that.

On the issue of imprisoning debtors, we got a comprehensive response to that from the Minister in his contribution. The Fines Act 2010, passed at the end of May, provides for an innovative, balanced and more humane approach to the determination and collection of fines. The Minister has promised us that this Act will be implemented with effect from January next year. That is definite progress.

Every person in Ireland is conscious of the terrible conditions in our prisons, of which we hear constant reports. There is no defence of it. The Irish Penal Reform Trust in its briefing on overcrowding in Irish prisons states the following:

Overcrowding is an exacerbating factor for other systematic problems such as poor cell conditions, poor regimes (limited education and meaningful activity among others) and inter-prisoner tension and violence. The State has a duty to provide safe and humane custody for all prisoners.

This is all the more apparent when we recall recent rioting in Mountjoy Prison. The Inspector of Prisons, Judge Michael Reilly, pointed out that there were 316 prisoners in Cork Prison on 23 July last but it has only capacity for 194. He said numbers in Castlerea Prison should be kept at 300 but had 414 in it, while Wheatfield should have 378 but had 470 in it. He said Dóchas women's prison has 107 in rooms designed for 78. We have had the controversial resignation of Kathleen McMahon, the former governor of the women's prison, and the pre-emptive retirement of John Lonergan. He appeared on "Tonight with Vincent Brown" last night and gave an extensive interview. I am still not fully informed of what has been happening, what has been attempted to be achieved and what has not been achieved.

I have visited the Midlands Prison to defend the human rights of prisoners. I have also visited St. Patrick's Institution on a formal basis and learned of the activities young people are engaged in every day. The tragedy of St. Patrick's Institution is that almost 90% of the young men I met there come from gangland families. I do not know how young people from gangland families, especially those from Limerick, will be able to escape the vicious circle into which they have been born. While staff of the Irish Prison Service are doing their best in St. Patrick's Institution, it is morally wrong that children are being imprisoned in the facility alongside adult prisoners. I am disappointed that, according to the most recent information, it has been decided not to proceed with the project to replace the institution with a new facility in Lusk.

I am sure 99% of prisoners come from families that are less well-off and do not have access to top barristers to get them out of their predicament. Tragically in this country, people are not sent to prison for white collar crime. This is in stark contrast to people born into socially and economically disadvantaged families who are imprisoned.

I have no doubt the Minister is doing his best and I hope he does not take personally my view that he was excessively optimistic and defensive about the current system. I remain opposed to replacing Mountjoy Prison with a new facility at Thornton Hall. A new prison should have been provided on the existing site. I also opposed the decision to relocate the Central Mental Hospital to Thornton Hall. Given that most of those in prison are less well-off, the requirement to travel some distance to the Thornton Hall site will create additional costs and cause greater inconvenience for prisoners' families. The move is not a positive one, whereas the reform of the Fines Act is a civilised and positive measure. I look forward to Senator Bacik's contribution.