Maurice Hayes (Independent)

I will not bore the Minister as he knows my views on the police authority and I know his. It is not quite a draw as the Minister won. This series of amendments is of major importance and goes to the heart of the problem of policing a democratic society. It is important that the Minister has introduced them. I have some comments to make.

I was astounded when reading the Morris tribunal report to find that people could claim they did not have a responsibility to account to an employer for what they did on an employer's time as I would have thought that was implicit in any contract of employment. It is important the Minister has dealt with that.

I see the rest of this as a re-balancing of the relationships. Most police services and societies have the following problem. It would be entirely improper if any politician interfered in day to day policing or decide who should be arrested or charged, as one cannot have a spy in the camp inhibiting or second guessing the people doing that job. However, one cannot imagine that anybody is independent in the way that some chief constables I have known suggest. They describe decisions as operational because they have operational independence. I argue this point, as everything can be described as operational except saying "hello" to the Minister. That is why we spent so much time trying to hammer out that point in the Patten report. We clearly came to the conclusion that people must be accountable within frameworks and against plans and protocols. The Minister has gone a long way down that road.

I am glad the Minister introduced the possibility of having an inquiry by one person for situations where less than a full-blown inquiry is required. That might be a useful buffer at times between the politician and the documents. I am concerned about this but I accept the Minister's reassurances and am happy with similar reassurances from the Department. I am sure the Minister must develop protocols and directives on this and it might be better to make it clear that documents are not requested on a whim. Such requests are as a consequence of a serious concern of managerial deficiency in the police force, in response to a matter of public concern or to a question asked in the Oireachtas that the Minister account for matters.

Senator Walsh's concerns on informants can be dealt with in the same way. That a proper methodology and protocol for dealing with informants is also necessary comes from the Morris report. Its existence is crucial as it is a highly dangerous and difficult area. There is no question of a person of garda rank having to account to just anybody. Presumably it is spelled out that certain people are entitled to ask that particular question and not other questions. This tightens up the situation considerably. It is necessary in this day and age to assert there is no instrument, body or agency of the State which has untrammelled freedom to do what it wants on its time without being accountable through the Minister to the Oireachtas.