Joanna Tuffy (Labour)

I appreciate the Minister's reasons for bringing forward the new section 35. It refers to one of the recommendations of the Morris report. However, I agree with the concerns expressed by Senators. We will have to examine how it works. We should have had more time to consider these amendments. While I am aware that much debate was held on this matter, the House could have sat longer and held further discussions with Garda representative associations, among others, before passing this legislation. We should review this in the future.

I have concerns about the way in which a member of the Garda Síochána is affected by this provision in terms of rights to appeal. I did not have a chance to review the legislation but I presume that an appeal may be made by means of disciplinary proceedings. Many issues arise in this area. While I see its necessity and that rights are impacted upon in terms of the Garda, we should in the future determine whether it needs to be amended. The Labour Party proposal for a commission on policing was a good idea for that reason. Many issues could be investigated and vested interests consulted on policing in light of the latest Morris report. I do not agree that this would lead to delays. During the debate on the motion brought by the Labour Party last week, I said that the Patten commission in the North did not delay reforms such as the Ombudsman Act 1998. That was enacted before the Patten commission reported. Reforms could be made now and a commission established which could do more. We should consider an independent Garda authority.

The logic of the Minister's argument in terms of section 36 is that he already has access. If that is the case, why do we need this provision? If not, what gap is it filling in the legislation as it stands? The Minister said he should have the access as described in the provision. If that is true, surely we already have it in our legislation. The Minister might comment on that point.

New section 38 concerns general issues of accountability in terms of inquiries by the Minister into aspects of administration practice or procedure. One reason for this is that he would want to overview policing strategy and administration. It does not necessarily mean that he would hold an inquiry on the basis of wrongdoing. It may be held simply to investigate these issues in general terms. I repeat that an independent policing authority should be established.

The Minister is attempting to imply that this would remove matters from his remit as well as from that of the Oireachtas. That is not the case because, in the case of police authorities in other countries, the relevant Minister retains overall authority. I remember a dispute with an authority in the UK over the dismissal of a senior official, where the Minister there had a say in the matter. The establishment of a policing authority does not remove all decision-making powers from the Minister. The Minister would possess an overseeing role in terms of our police force.

The Minister remarked, in the context of the Northern Ireland authority, that we want these practices because they exist in Northern Ireland. That is not true. We want them because Northern Ireland represents a positive model. It is not that Northern Ireland was a society which required these practices or, as the Minister would imply, that it is unique. Northern Ireland followed the practice common to other policing regions of the UK since the introduction of the 1964 police Act, which established the policing authorities for the various police forces there. Problems in terms of accountability were identified by the Morris tribunal. The way to address the homogenous nature of the Garda Síochána in an open and accountable way is to have an independent police authority which holds public meetings and issues reports. The Minister would still have an overall role in terms of the police force.

I do not understand why the Minister is so strongly against the idea of an independent policing authority. He is clinging to his role in policing. That is incorrect. He needs to be brave, let go of his role and radically reform the structures in our police force. The independent police authority is the way to do that. A policing commission could initially examine all of the different possibilities and models of how to set up a policing authority and what it would do.

I stated last week that neither Ireland nor Northern Ireland are unique in having a crisis in policing. A lack of confidence and need for reform similar to that in Northern Ireland has occurred in police forces all over the world. The response of Northern Ireland in bringing in new structures shows its maturity. That we are not willing to go as far shows we are not as mature as a society.