Feargal Quinn (Independent)

I welcome the Minister of State, Deputy Parlon. I welcome the Bill more in hope than in expectation but I am very impressed with the Minister of State, Deputy Lenihan's, explanation that it does not replace or amend existing legislation in regard to tribunals, but introduces a more flexible approach, which is necessary.

I am not certain that the new model will be a successful way of carrying out investigations. What I am certain about is that the existing tribunal model has failed and we need to look for an alternative approach in the future. There is an old saying that "justice delayed is justice denied", which goes to the heart of the problem we have had with tribunals. Senator Walsh and Senator Terry already touched on this aspect. The root problem with that approach is that they take too long to complete. As of today, the Moriarty tribunal has been running for 2,470 days, the Mahon tribunal, formerly the Flood tribunal, for 2,431 days, the Morris tribunal for just 799 days and the Barr tribunal for 730 days. None of the tribunals is anywhere close to completing its work.

For example, the Mahon tribunal recently estimated that it has 11 years of work to do. On past performance, we can have no confidence whatever that this will not prove to be an underestimate. This timescale is unacceptable, which is why I am sure the Minister has faced up to this challenge. It is totally out of line with what we were led to expect when each of the tribunals was set up. It is fair to say that if Members of the Oireachtas had any idea the tribunals would go on for so long, we would have thought long and hard before agreeing to their establishment in the first place. We probably did not have any other choice at that stage without introducing new legislation.

The long timescale of the existing tribunals makes worse another inherent fault in the existing model, namely, the expense. The public standing of the tribunals has been greatly undermined by the sheer cost of the operation. It involves sums of money that are outside the experience of most ordinary people. Most people are not happy at the sight of teams of lawyers being provided with years of work that guarantee a total return roughly equivalent to winning the national lottery in a good week. There are two things wrong with the costs as they currently stand. The first is the rate that is paid to counsel representing the very many interests involved in the tribunals. Their daily rate parallels the usual costs that apply in the normal courts, but for totally different work. Most court cases last just a day or two and even the longest cases stretch for only a few weeks. The daily rates paid to counsel working in the courts reflect that fact. They are not designed for situations where the work goes on for many years, at a very low level of intensity. The other cost problem arises from the use of expensive lawyers to do work that is, to put it mildly, way below their pay grade.

Each of the tribunals employs a team of lawyers who do the basic research work necessary to prepare the tribunal's case at public sessions. It is not necessary to employ top lawyers to do this type of work. Equally good results, or perhaps better results, could be got from using researchers who would cost a great deal less. Either lawyers should not be used for this work but, if they are, they should be paid on a contract basis at a rate that reflects the level of the work carried out.

There is a third aspect to the cost issue which I am reluctant to touch on because it may be taken as criticism of the people involved in the existing tribunals, which I am anxious to avoid. My main issue is with the system, not with the people who are caught up in it, but honesty compels me to say that I am disappointed at the complete lack of urgency that seems to pervade each of these tribunals, from top to bottom. They are very good at carrying out their terms of reference, which we in the Oireachtas have provided, but no one in any of the tribunals appears to have considered the common sense questions of how long it will take to get results and if that timescale is acceptable to the public. Is the timescale just, equitable and appropriate? Far from asking these questions, it appears to some observers looking at the tribunals from the outside that in some cases the tribunals have deliberately gone about their work in the slowest possible way. I am not making that accusation. I am merely recording the fact that some people have voiced that opinion and believe it to be true. The fact that many people feel that way is a contributing factor to the low regard in which the tribunals are currently held by the public.

The legislation concerning tribunals dates, as Senator Terry said, to 1921. However, until the beef tribunal at the beginning of the 1990s, it was very rarely used. The beef tribunal took too long, cost too much and produced unsatisfactory results. With hindsight, maybe it should have been a warning to us that there was something inherently flawed with the model we were using. More than a decade later, with all the experience we now have under our belts, there can hardly be any doubt about the unsuitability of the tribunal model as a way of investigating serious problems.

I therefore give a cautious welcome to the Bill, which at the least is an acknowledgement that the problem exists. Whether it is a workable or complete solution, only time will tell, but I am willing to give it a chance. We must observe it carefully in operation and be ready to change it if circumstances suggest the need. We will always need some mechanism like this, other than the tribunal system, and it is vital the mechanism is effective. However, in putting forward legislation, let us be ready to examine it again to find whether we can improve it. If it is not effective, it will succeed only in adding to the problems and perpetuating them rather than solving them.

The Minister of State at the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform, Deputy Brian Lenihan, referred to two aspects of the Bill. I look forward to hearing him answer Senator Terry's concern that the commission reports to the Minister and not to the Oireachtas. I do not understand this and would like the Minister to put my mind at rest. I approve of another point made by the Minister. He explained that the Bill has in its origins the need to provide a means for investigation into the child sex abuse scandals and to make arrangements for a less adversarial atmosphere to encourage witnesses who might otherwise have been reluctant to attend. This is worthy of praise, consideration and support.

The Bill has been thought out correctly and goes in the right direction. I question whether we should have the flexibility to adjust it in some form in the future rather than setting it in stone. Nonetheless, I congratulate the Minister.