Jim Walsh (Fianna Fail)

Cuirim fáilte roimh an Aire Stáit agus an Bille tábhachtach seo. Unlike Senator Terry, I welcome this much needed Bill. Those of us who sat on the sub-committee on the Barron report into the Dublin-Monaghan bombings were conscious of the inhibitions the current failed mechanisms of tribunals imposed. There is overwhelming public support for changes to be made which will lead to more cost-effective, efficient and relevant ways at getting at the truth. Ultimately, that is what all of these are about. Where issues of public concern arise, it has to be open to the Oireachtas, the Government and Ministers to establish mechanisms, which can inquire into these issues and arrive at conclusions on issues of importance.

We have had a proliferation of tribunals. While I empathise to some extent with Senator Terry regarding an Oireachtas input, that will happen in any event because of the accountability Ministers and the Government have to both Houses. The Houses are however in no position to make any argument for having a defining role in establishing tribunals, given what has happened. As a Member I would personally feel culpable, and collectively we should feel culpable, for setting up vehicles which are costing a fortune. Some good work has certainly been done. The issues were important and needed to be inquired into, but not for the length of time and at the costs currently involved. Despite pressure from the media or elsewhere we must be sensible in the arrangement we put in place. Any evening I am travelling late, I enjoy the "Tonight with Vincent Browne" radio show. The re-enactment of tribunal proceedings is very interesting and entertaining but at what cost? We could have entertaining programmes on radio between 10 p.m. and 11 p.m. for a small fraction of the cost incurred by the tribunals. That is not to diminish their role in any way but they have got totally out of hand. In fairness, many people in the legal profession also say that the tribunals are bringing their profession into disrepute. There is a need for more streamlined alternatives. What is before us is a well constructed, good alternative for the investigation of many of the issues. I did not quite understand the point made by Senator Terry regarding existing tribunals but most of them could have been covered by the mechanism we now have in the Commissions of Investigation Bill.

When I alluded to the Dublin-Monaghan bombings, the biggest atrocity in the history of the Troubles on this island over the past 30 years, the only commensurate matter which arose that would have equalled those atrocities and equalled the necessity to have a public inquiry is probably the scandal of the blood transfusions, dealt with by the Lindsay tribunal. The fact of those tribunals taking such an inordinate length of time means that the purpose for which they were established is lost with the time span incurred. We heard recently that the Mahon tribunal will probably continue until 2014. Anything, which comes out of it in that year, or indeed in 2010, will probably have been overtaken by various changes in legislation during the interim period. The value of the investment in the tribunal will therefore have been lost. If issues are of public concern, there is surely a necessity that they be dealt with expeditiously. With the length of time being incurred by some tribunals, that is not happening. That is why I welcome the provision in this Bill that at the very outset the terms of reference, including a timeframe for the operation of the commission of investigation and a fully costed appraisal of what it will take to complete, are essential.

I mentioned earlier the manner in which previous terms of reference were drawn up. Much of the difficulty now being encountered regarding the timeframe and costs of existing tribunals relates to the broad terms of reference allowed. In that regard I would like to see on an all-party basis a sensible appraisal made of where each tribunal now stands, the outstanding issues and the timescales of which the tribunals themselves are talking. Each tribunal should then be re-defined in a sensible way. I have no doubt that much of the information gathered in some of the tribunals could now be referred to the Director of Public Prosecutions. There is no reason the legal process should not be able to deal with a number of the issues that have now arisen. That is the correct forum for dealing with serious wrongdoing.

I would like to think that once this legislation is enacted we would consider what issues currently before the different tribunals might well be referred to a commission of investigation to be expedited and processed. The residue of important matters which it is felt can be dealt with only by tribunals would then be re-defined in much more specific ways with the existing tribunals so that they could conclude their work in a fashion which would have been the initial intention of the Houses of the Oireachtas when some of the tribunals were established as far back as 1998. When some of those tribunals were established in that year, I doubt any Member envisaged that in 2004 they would still be continuing and only at the early stages of their activities. This Bill is a reasonable vehicle to ensure that in the future these matters will be dealt with in a manner of which we would all approve.

I note that in the Bill there is emphasis on voluntary co-operation, to which Senator Terry referred. The Bill is clearly premised on getting co-operation but it also has extensive coercive powers which are outlined. They include directions to attend, to answer questions, to disclose and produce documents, powers of entry on foot of a warrant in the case of a private dwelling and the power to seize documents and equipment, as well as to make determinations and give directions where privilege is claimed over documents. That is as it should be. Once a commission of investigation or tribunal is established it must be able to operate with the full resources of whatever legal powers are required in order to conduct its business well and arrive at its conclusions.

The Minister of State might clarify a matter which possibly involves constitutional issues. The commission of investigation will report and outline the facts in a situation. Where there is a conflict in the evidence, it is debarred from adjudicating. I suppose that is because much of the commission's work will be conducted in private so that people may not have the possibility of cross-examination in certain areas. That whole area might need to be looked at. I know that we value the idea of the public trial, the cross-examination and everyone having his or her say. That system does not operate in all countries. It has its shortcomings and we should recognise that. Where certain situations arise and where the facts can be garnered from private interviews, corroborated, established and perhaps even admitted, there is no reason why conclusions cannot be reached. However, in order to reach conclusions, it may be necessary to have a full public inquiry, with all the attendant costs, delays and so on.

Senator Terry alluded to the fact that holding many of the sessions in private would give an element of confidentiality at the early stages of investigations so that people's good names are not tarnished. The corollary to this is the public tribunals system. The initial operation, in which lawyers for the tribunal outline the information they have garnered and what they will deal with during the course of a specific module, all goes into the public domain unchallenged and uncontested. In many instances, where it reflects badly on people's characters, it gives rise to injustice. When one hears many months later the defence making its case, carrying out the cross-examination and giving the other side of the coin, a different perception emerges. It is unfair that in the interim people who may have done no wrong can be ridiculed and held up to opprobrium by the media and the public at large. It is not right.

One cannot deal with this topic without addressing the issue of costs. The Minister of State may be able to confirm what the tribunals have cost to date. I have heard figures in the region of €120 million. There is speculation that by the time all the tribunals are completed we could be talking about €1 billion, which is alarming. It is a scandal. I do not necessarily concur with Senator Terry's welcome for the tendering process. There is not a competitive arrangement within a number of professions, particularly the legal profession. I do not think a tendering process would achieve very much under the current closed system, which operates within the legal profession. There is an onus on the Government to tackle privilege where it is operating on behalf of vested interests and against the public good. This is an area that needs to be opened up to competition. However, until some system is put in place to achieve competition, I doubt if the tendering process will achieve what is desired.

It is not good enough for people who do not co-operate and who are saddled with the cost of part of the tribunal or part of the commission of investigation to be hit with excessive costs if the State has agreed €2,500 a day when the maximum for any individual should not exceed €1,000. If the State has done a bad deal with its lawyers in these instances, people should not have to fund the inefficiency of the State in their negotiations with legal people or anyone else who might be involved. The way the legislation is structured means that other legal people will be involved, which will help to streamline costs. I am pleased to welcome the Bill, which will in time be seen to be a progressive measure.