Pearse Doherty (Donegal, Sinn Fein)
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Tá a fhios againn go bhfuil oibrithe agus teaghlaigh ag streachailt cheana féin le costais maireachtála. Déanann an chaint seo ar tharaifí dochar do ghnáth-theaghlaigh trí phraghsanna a ardú. Ní féidir leis an Rialtas seo oibrithe a thréigean. Tá na hoibrithe seo faoi bhrú cheana féin. Tá imní orthu agus iad ag cloisteáil faoi chogadh trádála sna nuachtáin.

Later today, we expect the President of the United States to announce a trade deal with Britain. This will be the first deal struck since the American Administration unveiled aggressive tariffs on its trading partners across the world, including here in the European Union. Those tariffs were latterly partially suspended to allow space for negotiations. We all know that it is through negotiations and cool heads that this issue will be resolved. This major change in US economic policy, particularly in the context of a trade deal with Britain, brings unique challenges here on the island of Ireland for cross-Border trade and our all-island economy. The Government needs to be alert and to act to ensure that post-Brexit gains and the progress made are protected so that the all-island economy can continue to grow and prosper.

The European Union is also set to launch its suite of countermeasures to the US tariffs today. We have warned that a tit-for-tat trade war between the United States and the European Union would not be in Ireland's interest. The ESRI and the Department of Finance have been clear that President Trump's tariffs are damaging and that countertariffs from the EU would make things worse through a hit to the public finances and to jobs and through pushing prices higher for Irish consumers. I hope the Tánaiste has made Ireland's unique position very clear in his discussions with his EU counterparts. We need an outcome that protects Irish jobs, livelihoods and the future of our economy and the all-island economy. As I said, that requires cool heads and calm negotiations. It also requires a willingness on both sides to have meaningful negotiations.

We know that nobody wins in a trade war but it is always ordinary workers and families who suffer the most. Although the Government would like to pretend otherwise, the tariff uncertainty is happening as working people are dealing with an unprecedented cost-of-living crisis. Households are hit by soaring grocery prices and energy costs and record rents, and we saw yesterday how motorists are being fleeced by sharp increases in motor insurance. It is all going in one direction and that direction is up. To add insult to injury, just last week, the Government, in its wisdom, heaped more pressure on those families by increasing carbon tax, making it more expensive for those families to heat their homes and cook their food. It is madness in the context of a cost-of-living crisis. Ordinary people are already struggling and cannot afford a tit-for-tat tariff war. With all the pressure on households, what the Government has done is to rule out a cost-of-living package in the October budget. It appears the message from Government is that working people are on their own.

If that was not enough for working people to worry about, they heard from the Fine Gael Parliamentary Party that the prospect of countertariffs from the EU means that the Government may need to take difficult decisions. The Tánaiste talks about difficult decisions. Unfortunately, the Irish people are all too familiar with difficult decisions. They have seen them time and time again. Just last week, we saw the Government prioritised CEOs and political insiders on massive salaries while ordinary workers were asked to wait longer for pay increases to bring them to a living wage.

What assessment has the Tánaiste's Department done of the impact on prices and jobs from increasing tariffs and EU countermeasures? Can he assure the public that their interests and Ireland's interests will be reflected in the EU response to be announced today and that the all-Ireland economy will be protected? Does he accept that Irish people are living through a cost-of-living crisis and that certainty is needed that there will be a cost-of-living package in this year's budget?

Simon Harris (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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I will begin where the Deputy began on trade, tariffs and the all-island all-Ireland economy. This morning, I spoke to the Deputy's colleague, my counterpart, the Minister for the Economy in the Northern Ireland Executive, Dr. Caoimhe Archibald. I thank her for ongoing engagement with me and for the way she is going about her business. We have agreed to meet by way of video conference either tomorrow or Monday once we have clarity on what is in the UK-US agreement. I use that word loosely because, quite frankly, we do not know at this stage if it is a full agreement. I have heard speculation that it is the heads of an agreement or a framework. It is important that we see what comes from that later today.

In all my engagements with the British Government, including when I met the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland 11 days ago, and in all my engagements at the European level, I am very clear that the unique position of this island and the north of this island needs to be factored into all discussions at EU level and with the US and in our ongoing discussions with the British Government. Of course, we can all point to the Windsor Framework and different mechanisms but to do so is to miss the point. Tariffs are not a good idea, full stop. The trade that happens across this island, between these islands and between this island and the US matters. I am absolutely committed to working in good faith with the Minister, Dr. Archibald, and with the Northern Ireland Executive. I know the Minister is also committed to doing so.

A number of things are going to happen this afternoon. The EU's response or next steps must be seen through the prism of four measures. The first and most important to note is that the European Union, of which Ireland is a proud member, wants to negotiate. We do not want to be in a tit-for-tat tariff war. I agree with the Deputy on that. Tariffs are bad for everybody. There are no winners in a tariff war. I therefore believe the EU is right to have intensified its engagement with the United States in recent days and in the proposals we are making to find a way forward. The Deputy's question is a fair one: do we have interlocutors who are willing to do a deal? We have to keep working on that. We have to support the work of Maroš Šefčovič, the EU's Commissioner for trade, who is doing a very good job in this area. That is step one. We must reach out with proposals, engage in good faith, try to get an agreement and use the 90-day pause.

The second measure is countermeasures. I take the point that tariffs are not good for anyone. I get that. That is absolutely true. However, from a negotiating point of view, we do have to negotiate from a position of strength. Irish people get that. We cannot go into talks with our hands swinging and asking nicely for a deal. We have to say that we want a deal and want zero tariffs for zero tariffs but that the European Union is a market of 460 million people and will look at responding in other areas if we have to. It is important to say a couple of things about the list of countermeasures that will be published today. The first is that it is going to be a very long list. The second is that none of this will come in anytime soon. It will go out for public consultation until at least 10 June. Even when that public consultation closes, the Commission will need to do more work before it even reaches a decision-making mechanism within the European Union. We need to apply the "cool heads" the Deputy mentioned to our response to the countermeasures. Ultimately, I want to see the countermeasures list ripped up and never coming into effect because we have reached an agreement. The third measure the European Union should consider and that I expect it will is to take a dispute to the WTO. The United States is not in compliance with World Trade Organization rules. Rules matter and membership of the WTO matters. The fourth measure we have to take at European level is to continue to watch for what is often called "dumping", which is the idea that lots of extra goods may come to our markets from other parts of the world because of actions taken by the US.

I expect the EU to also monitor this very closely. Those are the four areas where we are likely to see monitoring.

I would like to offer Opposition parties a further briefing with the Government next week. We should continue to work hand in glove on this. I will also attend the meeting of EU trade Ministers in Brussels next Thursday.

Pearse Doherty (Donegal, Sinn Fein)
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I thank the Tánaiste and we will definitely take him up on that briefing. There are two points here. We know that tariffs increase prices on consumers but even if there were no tariffs there is a cost of living crisis. I really think that the Government does not get it. Whatever way the Government dresses it up, last week it actually heaped more pressure on families through the carbon tax. It makes it more expensive for people to heat their homes. It makes it more expensive to cook their food. This is at a time when they are struggling with grocery prices, rent, insurance and so on.

With regard to the countermeasures that come from the European Union, I presume the Tánaiste's office has been engaged with them or has had sight of them. Will he give us an early assessment of the impact of those measures in Ireland, if they were to come to pass? We all hope that they will never come to pass? However, the Tánaiste told his parliamentary party meeting that we may face difficult decisions, so I am very concerned. In the past, the Government used the issue of tariffs in the context of low-paid workers having to wait longer while at the same time the Government is preparing to increase CEO salaries right across semi-State boards, and protecting the insiders such as we have seen in terms of Brendan McDonagh's salary and all of the rest. I want the Tánaiste to answer that question. I presume he has seen the countermeasures coming from the European Union. Are they in Ireland's interests? From his initial assessment does he believe they protect the all-island economy or do they challenge it further?

Simon Harris (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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If we get to a place where countermeasures have to be introduced by the European Union, this will not be good for the European Union and it will not be good for the US. It will not be good for the economies in Europe or in the US because it is almost impossible to publish a list that does not have an impact in every single member state. The list will be broad, and it will include industrial products and a whole variety of issues. I expect it to run to more than 200 pages. I have not formally seen it and it will have to be assessed. It will take a period of time to assess it but there is the time. Unlike President Trump, we are not saying "Here is the list and it comes in tomorrow or in 30 days". We are saying that here is a list of measures we do not want to take, that we want to have them prepared in case, and that we want to consult and we want to engage. There will be consultation until at least 10 June so nothing will change in the here and now.

Yes, I did tell my parliamentary party what I tell the Irish people and what I did say during the general election, and what the Minister for Finance, Deputy Donohoe, says regularly too, that if we get to a situation where President Trump's agenda of high tariffs and protectionism takes hold and there is no improvement, that will have an effect on our economy. We do have to navigate that challenge. The Deputy asked what this effect looks like. In fairness, it is outlined in the progress report published by the Minister yesterday in terms of what the economic growth looks like, what job creation looks like and the different levels we would be at in that scenario compared to a scenario where there is a free flow of trade. We will keep working at this calmly and, as the Deputy said, with cool heads.

Cian O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay North, Social Democrats)
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The Israeli blockade on Gaza is now in its third month. No food, no water and no medicines have crossed into Gaza in that time. The only things that Israel has sent in are bombs and bullets. As it slowly starves the civilian population, it has continued its relentless bombardment. Yesterday alone at least 59 people were killed in air strikes on two schools. People huddling together in a school, terrified and hungry, were targeted yet again by this murderous regime and still the international community does nothing.

Netanyahu and his government have been clear in their words and deeds. Its expressed goal is the annihilation and ethnic cleansing of the Palestinian people, and they are not hiding it. They do not care how many innocent men, women and children are killed in Gaza. They do not view them as human and they do not care about their suffering. The genocide they are committing is not a secret. It is happening out in the open as world leaders stand by and do nothing.

We have seen nearly two years of relentless barbarism by the Israeli state in Gaza. No one can claim to be surprised anymore by the depths of its depravity. What is shocking though is the continued silence, hypocrisy and inaction from those in power. Last week the EU President Ursula von der Leyen announced the EU was sending help to the region. This, however, was not to assist children in Gaza who are starving or being burned alive in tents. It was to help extinguish forest fires in Israel. She said that this was EU solidarity in action. There is EU solidarity for forest fires but not for the men, women and children starving in Gaza.

On "The Late Late Show" last Friday the Tánaiste said he did not believe weapons are being flown through Irish airspace on their way to Israel. On what basis did he make this claim? Recognising the gravity of what is happening in Gaza, he also said that we have to do more. Specifically what more will he do? He also confirmed that passing a law relating to the occupied territories is going to take place. Yet, the Government did not commit to passing the occupied territories Bill, which was our legislation with the same aims. We are now five months into this Government and no closer to enacting this crucial Bill. There are reports today that the Tánaiste has not yet even sought approval from Cabinet for drafting the legislation and that when he does,he intends to exclude services from the ban. Enacting legislation to ban trade from the occupied territories was a key commitment of Fianna Fáil and Fine Gael during the election. Why is the Tánaiste dragging his feet on this? Why is he proposing to water down the Bill by excluding services?

Simon Harris (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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I am not dragging my feet. Regardless of our political persuasion or whichever party we are in, or whether the people watching from home support Government parties, Opposition parties or neither, people in this country are sickened, appalled and disgusted by what we are seeing in what Israel has done in Gaza and what the Israeli Government, as the Deputy rightly said, is very openly and blatantly proposing to do in relation to Gaza. That does require all of us to do more and I include Ireland in that.

I do not share the Deputy's view of what Europe has done to date. The European Union, of which Ireland is a part, has provided very significant financial assistance to UNRWA on a multi-annual basis, only agreed a couple of weeks ago at the first EU-Palestinian high level dialogue, to help support the Palestinian Authority. Action is being taken on that but Israel is not listening. Nothing that has happened to date has changed the situation here in terms of Israel actually showing restraint, or issuing statements calling for restraint, when there is a government in Israel that plans doing the exact opposite.

What we are doing here at a national level is continuing to work at EU level. That makes sense. I said this to Senator Black yesterday. If this is about having impact and applying maximum pressure to help bring about a ceasefire, a cessation of violence and a two-state solution, the EU living up to its obligations under the human rights clauses of the association agreement is what has to happen.

I was interested yesterday to see the Netherlands join Ireland's and Spain's call for this to happen. In the hours ahead I intend to speak to counterparts to see if more countries will come on board and echo Ireland's call. The human rights clauses in trade agreements or association agreements are not there for padding. They are not there to make the agreement longer. They are not discretionary extras and they have to count for something. We are all pretty furious that they do not seem to count for something at the moment. We will continue to work at that.

Let me be clear that we are going to take forward legislation on the occupied Palestinian territories. The programme for Government is clear on that. We intend to honour that. I had a very good meeting with Senator Frances Black yesterday. She is a very good person and her motive here is to try to do some good. At that meeting I committed to going to the Government this month to seek a decision to move forward on that. We will have a longer time to discuss the contents of what is in that legislation but I will have to be honest in only being able to put something in the legislation that will stand up to legal scrutiny and that is in compliance with the laws by which we have to operate. There is a benefit of publishing a Government Bill and going to an Oireachtas committee. I will not speak for the Senator but I think she saw the benefit in this too, which is the opportunity to actually tease this out and to bring in people and hear different perspectives, to get the best legislation possible. I hope that in Ireland bringing forward legislation it might encourage and spur other countries to say, "We could do that too". If the EU refuses to act as a collective on this, why do a number of member states not do what we are proposing to do here in Ireland?

Cian O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay North, Social Democrats)
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I put a couple of questions to the Tánaiste that he has not answered. The key issue is that EU humanitarian aid is not getting into Gaza because the actions that need to be taken by the international community to ensure it happens are not being taken. People in Gaza cannot wait any longer; they need action now.

The Government must do everything it can to stop munitions going through Irish airspace. According to The Ditch, Israel's national carrier brought 1,500 kg of arms through Irish airspace last year labelling them as weapons in their paperwork.

Have these reports been investigated? Why is the Government not acting to stop the illegal transfer of weapons through Irish airspace? With regard to the occupied territories Bill, I ask specifically about the inclusion of services. The Tánaiste knows very well that international trade is not just about goods; it is also about services. Why are services not being included in the proposed legislation? There is no legal basis for excluding services. It is a key part of trade. That is the commitment the Tánaiste made during the election on the occupied territories Bill and trade. He did not exclude services. Why is he reneging on that promise now?

Simon Harris (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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It is not a matter of reneging on anything. I do not mind saying in this House, and I would be very happy to engage and share this more fully, but the legal advice available to me is that there is a narrow pathway - and it is a narrow pathway - under the ICJ advisory opinion for member states to seek to move ahead unilaterally, for want of a better phrase. We have not yet been able to identify the narrow pathway on services. That is the truth. It is not a policy position; it is a legal position. However, as I said to Senator Black, who has a different legal position, is that we are happy to engage on this. There is not a policy difference or policy objective differences; there truthfully is not. However, there is a need to make sure any Bill can withstand the inevitable challenge that this will face. I am happy to work through this.

Regarding the issue of Irish airspace, I did honestly say that it is hard to have the level of knowledge that I think we all need to have in terms of what happens in our skies. I do not just mean in our skies, but more internationally. I did say that we will have to look and consider whether we need to change domestic legislation and whether we need to work at an international level in terms of the legislation and covenants, many of which date back to the 1940s, that govern this as well. We have clear laws regarding what can and cannot go through Irish sovereign territory and the requirement to seek an exemption from the Minister for Transport, and that, of course, is the point of reference I was making.

Paul Murphy (Dublin South West, Solidarity)
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These are the Tánaiste's words:

Children are starving. Basic painkilling medicine cannot be accessed. Hospitals are being bombed and the scale of death and destruction in Gaza is almost unimaginable. It is certainly unconscionable. Famine is a real risk for many Gazans and children are even dying as we speak ... We cannot and will not stand idly by and let this happen.

These are the Tánaiste's words, but standing by is exactly what the Government is doing regarding the thousands of tonnes of weaponry flown through Irish sovereign airspace since October 2023 to the Israeli military, namely, F-35 combat jet components, munitions from Lockheed Martin and IMI Systems, missile launchers, Smith and Wesson handguns, ammunition primer, detonator, detonating fuses and teargas. I could go on. Multiple airlines are doing it repeatedly, namely, Lufthansa, Delta Airlines, FedEx, Challenge, Silk Way Airlines and EL AL. They are flown without permission from the Irish State. It is a criminal offence which carries a three-year prison sentence for the owner or hirer of the aircraft. The Tánaiste is not just turning a blind eye to it; he is gaslighting us about it. He told the Dáil last June that "no ... Irish sovereign airspace is being used to transport weapons to the conflict in the Middle East." Last Friday, on "The Late Late Show", the Tánaiste said he does not believe that Irish skies are being used to transport weapons to Israel. Now he tells the Dáil that it is hard to have the level of knowledge that we need to have about these flights.

Simon Harris (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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That is what it is.

Paul Murphy (Dublin South West, Solidarity)
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How could the Tánaiste say these things? The Ditch has informed him, and I am very happy to pass over a folder of waybills from the airlines themselves. We do not need to investigate it; the airlines themselves are declaring that they are carrying weapons. These have been sent to the Tánaiste repeatedly, not just after the fact, but in advance of the fact. One of the receipts I have here from FedEx clearly lists the tracking number and flags it as international traffic in arms regulations, ITAR, goods. On 23 October 2024, The Ditch emailed the Tánaiste, stating:

We wish to advise you that FedEx flight FDX4 ... from Memphis to Cologne is carrying at least three munitions of war packages for delivery to Nevatim IDF Air Base in Israel. This aircraft departed Memphis just over an hour ago, and its flight plan indicates it will enter Irish sovereign airspace this afternoon.

[...]

FedEx has designated the three packages - which we understand are Lockheed Martin F-35 combat jet components - as ... (ITAR) goods. The F-35 is a weapon of war used by the [IDF] to kill civilians - including journalists - in Gaza.

The Tánaiste knows about it. Why does he say he does not believe it is happening? Is he claiming he has not received this evidence? Or is he saying that he has received this evidence but that he thinks the airlines are somehow, for some reason, lying about having weapons and munitions on their planes? Is the Tánaiste going to act? Will he keep saying the world needs to act, that we need to do more and cannot stand idly by, and then continue to precisely stand idly by while weapons go through Irish airspace to be used for a genocide?

Conor McGuinness (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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Hear, hear.

Simon Harris (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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I think this is probably the only Parliament in the world where Members of the Parliament stand up and suggest that the Irish Government's position is anything other than supportive of the people of Palestine. It is usually quite the opposite, in fact. Any of us who attend international meetings and forums will know that Ireland is usually seen as almost an outlier - worryingly, perhaps - in terms of our level of support for international law, for human rights, for the people of Palestine, for a two-state solution and in calling out, as our Taoiseach did, the war crimes being committed by Israel. Coming to this Chamber, I get a completely different representation. Ireland is not standing idly by. Deputy Murphy quoted my words, I think, of this Tuesday. Ireland is not standing idly by. Ireland has already outlined even more steps that this country intends to take, both domestically and internationally, with regard to supporting the people of Palestine, but more profoundly, in terms of supporting international law and human rights. We continue to do that and will continue to do that at every opportunity.

Deputy Murphy also said I said something earlier as though I said it for the first time. I also said it on Friday night in the interview to which he referred, that we do need to have a better understanding and knowledge as to what happens above our skies and indeed below our seas. I find it somewhat ironic that the Deputy who raises this issue is the same Deputy who would oppose any increase in defence spending to increase the capabilities of Óglaigh na hÉireann in terms of monitoring what happens in our skies and below our seas, because that is exactly what we need to do. The Deputy can shake his head if he wants-----

Paul Murphy (Dublin South West, Solidarity)
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They are on the waybills. I can give them to the Tánaiste-----

Simon Harris (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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I know-----

Paul Murphy (Dublin South West, Solidarity)
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They are admitting it.

Paschal Donohoe (Dublin Central, Fine Gael)
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Too busy standing up to journalists.

Paul Murphy (Dublin South West, Solidarity)
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We do not need aircraft to find out about it.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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The Tánaiste to continue.

Paul Murphy (Dublin South West, Solidarity)
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They are telling the Tánaiste that they are carrying weapons-----

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Deputy Murphy.

Paul Murphy (Dublin South West, Solidarity)
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-----and he is not doing anything about it.

Simon Harris (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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I thank Deputy Murphy for shouting me down again. I know his party is having difficulty this week as they will not take questions from some journalists if they do not like the questions. When he comes to the House, he asks me a question and will not allow me to answer it. He does not take questions from some and does not accept answers from others. Do not shout me down, please, on an important issue.

With regard to this situation, I have made it very clear what Irish law states. As a Government Minister and a leader in Government, we obviously rely on the laws of our land. The laws are very clear with regard to the Air Navigation (Carriage of Munitions of War, Weapons and Dangerous Goods) Orders of 1973 and 1989, that expressly prohibits civil aircraft from carrying munitions of war in Irish sovereign territory without being granted an exemption to do so by the Minister for Transport.

I have also made the point that it is one thing about what people wish to inspect when it is on the ground but, when a plane is at 30,000 ft or 35,000 ft in the air, I would be very interested in hearing from the Deputy his practical and implementable solutions in terms of what more we can do. I do not say that, by the way, in any flippant way, because, to be very clear, I think we need to do more on this and that we need to see change internationally regarding this. This being dictated from international covenants and agreements of the 1940s does not reflect the reality today. I also think we need to have better clarity and understanding around munitions and parts, and absolute clarity as to what needs to be declared, because the law of this country is clear and robust in terms of Irish sovereign airspace, but then there are also the practicalities in terms of the implementation. Work is ongoing in the Department of Transport. The Minister, Deputy O'Brien, confirmed that to me again as recently as this morning, in terms of what more measures Ireland needs to take with regard to our own law or what more measures Ireland needs to seek to take internationally.

Paul Murphy (Dublin South West, Solidarity)
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We can see the Tánaiste's studied, deliberate and false ignorance, pretending that he does not know what is going on and suggesting we need to have aircraft to inspect commercial airlines in the sky over Ireland. What is he suggesting? Again, it is very simple. I am really happy to give these waybills from the aircraft to the Tánaiste that repeatedly show that thousands of tonnes of weaponry have gone through Irish airspace on the way to be used in a genocide in Gaza. This is not a mystery; the airlines admit it.

A few months ago, the previous Government had some sort of examination in the Department of Transport. What happened to that examination? The Tánaiste wants to know my practical solution. My practical solution is that the Minister for Transport should prosecute the companies. It is the law. They are currently breaking the law. I will give the Tánaiste another suggestion, which actually came from the now Taoiseach. Micheál Martin said last September that there had to be consequences for airlines that do this, that they should not be allowed to-----

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Thank you, Deputy.

Paul Murphy (Dublin South West, Solidarity)
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----- fly through our airspace if they violate these basic laws. Does the Tánaiste agree with that? Is he going to act to stop-----

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Thank you, Deputy Murphy

Paul Murphy (Dublin South West, Solidarity)
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----- Silk Way, Challenge, Delta and Lufthansa continuing to fly? We actually need action-----

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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You might observe the laws of the House, Deputy, please.

Paul Murphy (Dublin South West, Solidarity)
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Would the Tánaiste like me to drop these over to him, the emails and so on, in order that he has them? Does he need them? Would he like me to drop them over to him?

Simon Harris (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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I will wait until the Deputy is finished. I thank him.

Paul Murphy (Dublin South West, Solidarity)
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I will drop them over to him.

Simon Harris (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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He is coming over to me. I thank the Deputy for that but, obviously, the process through which the Government will go is examining the allegations. The Department of Transport is examining them. I agree that any breaches of Irish law must of course have a consequence. Irish law matters. I am very clear on that, as is the Taoiseach and the Minister for Transport. If there have been breaches of Irish sovereign law, decisions will need to be taken on the next steps based on clear and robust evidence. We also need to be clear - and this is the point I was trying to make - that if existing legislation does not provide for the implemention of a system of routine and random inspections but rather requires that there first be an appearance of intention or likelihood for a civil aircraft to depart from a point in the State in a manner that would contravene the legislation, for example, carrying munitions, it is a legitimate question for the Government. I will consider whether we need to amend our domestic legislation and whether more needs to happen internationally. I am very clear that any breach of Irish law cannot be consequence-free. I agree with the Deputy on that. The Department of Transport is carrying out a robust examination of all these matters and it would advise the Government on what next steps are required.

Paul Gogarty (Dublin Mid West, Independent)
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I was at a presentation by Haven Horizons yesterday in the audiovisual room, as were others. This domestic, sexual and gender-based violence prevention centre does wonderful work - without proper State funding, I might add, something that needs to be looked at. At the discussion afterwards, an issue I was mulling over came up, and that was the contribution that social media make to such violent and coercive activity, where young boys especially are given unfiltered access to the most misogynistic material, where Andrew Tate and the self-proclaimed Irish patriarchal patriot Andrew Tayto and other pathetic excuses for real men become, through algorithms designed to entice and excite, the substitute male role models for an online generation. It is not just about boys; all our children are being sent the wrong messages about how to treat one another. They all want to be on TikTok, Snapchat, Instagram, Discord and other platforms and there is huge social media pressure - call it FOMO if you will - to be included with one's peers in the online world.

Social media are having a profound impact on the mental health of young people in Ireland, linked to an increase in anxiety and depression as our young people try to compare themselves with others. There is this unrealistic lifestyle perpetuated by celebrities and influencers which can affect the most impressionable in a very bad way. We have always been challenged by bullying behaviour in the real world, but it has been magnified by social media platforms where individuals can anonymously harass and intimidate the target or sometimes do it as part of a group pile-on, where someone is bullied or excluded, including, unfortunately, so many incidences where young people - and I have recent examples in my constituency - have been told bluntly to harm or even kill themselves. We have had sometimes tragic results in this country. We complain about how lack of regulation has turned social media into a cesspit for adults, but for children it is worse. We have vulnerable developing minds, in some ways, yes, more clued in than older generations to scams and spam, but at the same time less discerning as to how they access news content, what they share with their peers and what they learn from inappropriate access to adult content without any context or filters.

Calls for regulation have not worked so we need to move to the next level. At this point, as a legislator, I believe we should seriously explore what they are doing in Australia, a liberal country, where the world's strictest laws on social media have been enacted for under-16s, to come into being 12 months from now. They have to look at different ways of doing it. Is it not time we looked at doing something similar? It is not a panacea and there are drawbacks, but our children must come first, not the super-rich tech barons currently prostrating themselves before the Trump Administration.

Simon Harris (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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Deputy Gogarty is right in pretty much every word he said. This is an area that requires a lot more action and, as we have said before, and we mean it by our actions at both an EU and a domestic level, the era of self-regulation is over. We were talking about trade and tariffs a few moments ago; let us talk about another thing - values. Our values in this country and our values as Europeans matter too. Regulating social media companies - companies that can do good - is really important. Getting this right is really important, as is not being browbeaten by anybody in any part of the world in terms of having a regulatory structure in place that protects our democracies, protects our people, crucially, and, most importantly, protects our children and our vulnerable citizens.

We are not where we need to be in this regard. Being a parent today is even more complex and challenging a job than it has been in the past. It always has been, no doubt, but that idea of your child having nearly a better knowledge of technology than you have and you running to try to keep up with them is a source of huge concern for parents right across the country.

The Deputy is right that we need to look at what other countries are doing. My colleague, the Minister, Patrick O'Donovan, beside me has asked his officials to do exactly what the Deputy suggests, to look at what other countries like Australia are doing. Australia deserve great credit for the steps they are considering. I have been looking into this recently. They have given themselves a bit of a lead-in period because they are working on how you practically implement some of the measures they would like to implement around age verification.

What is very clear is that we have a digital age of consent in Ireland and it is 16 and, in my view, there are what amount to workarounds that have been found that mean that while we say there is a digital age of consent of 16, there are so many kids now on social media well before that. CyberSafeKids alarmingly reveals that 84% of under-12s have their own social media accounts or instant messaging accounts, despite the minimum age restriction being 13 on the most popular apps, and around 93% of eight-to-12-year-olds have their own smart device. This is a ticking timebomb. We need to get serious in terms of empowering and supporting parents. We need to tackle that FOMO of "I must do it because somebody else of my age also has a smartphone or is on social media". Now, with the existence of Coimisiún na Meán, and with, as the Deputy said, the experiences from other countries, this is an area that we should act on. Very serious consideration should be given to the idea of having to be 16 before you are on social media and aligning that with the digital age of consent in Ireland, which is also 16. We should work constructively across parties, perhaps through the new committee structures and the likes that will exist in this House, to really scrutinise this, to learn from other jurisdictions and to use the resources we now have through the European legislative infrastructure to take steps that will support our children.

Paul Gogarty (Dublin Mid West, Independent)
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In early 2023, the Taoiseach, Micheál Martin, said that parents know best when it comes to banning youngsters from social media or imposing phone restrictions. That was in response to touted legislation in the UK that was less stringent than the Australian model being touted. However, teachers, who see the impact first hand in the classrooms, will beg to differ. The Tánaiste, the original TikTok Taois, as he has been called, said last year as well as today that the era of social media giants regulating themselves is over, so I understand how seriously he takes this, but let us regulate them. If we cannot protect our children adequately, we have to make sure they live safer lives by banning use. If you start at 16, it might help the 12- or 13-year-olds. Maybe a citizens' convention on this issue could be held. There are risks, of course, that some will go to the dark web or use VPNs to circumvent restrictions if what we do is not sufficient, but we need to show leadership rather than hide behind laborious EU initiatives. We brought in the smoking ban; why can we not get moving on a ban on social media as well?

Simon Harris (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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Deputy Gogarty is not doing this, but sometimes we can blame the European Union. The European Union has given us pretty decent legislative infrastructure here. It is now up to member states, including Ireland, to decide how we wish to utilise that. The era of self-regulation is over beyond my just saying it in the sense that there are now codes in place and there is now an ability to fine companies that do not comply with the codes. I am genuinely concerned about the age verification piece. Of course, we must empower and entrust parents. Parents raising their children is something we all agree with, but we also know as parents that you can support parents through your laws. In my hometown of Greystones we brought in a voluntary smartphone ban in primary schools. Parents were delighted because you did not have to start having the conversation with the son or daughter about everybody else in the class having a smartphone. It provided cover and support for all parents to say, "No, in this town we do not do smartphones in primary schools." That is now being rolled out to many other things. Getting that same culture in terms of the age at which people use social media is an interesting step. The Deputy proposed some very interesting ideas, I am happy that the Minister with responsibility here has heard them, and let us continue to engage on this.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the Tánaiste. On behalf of Deputy John Clendennen, I welcome a group in the Public Gallery from St. Brendan's Community School in Birr in County Offaly who recently won the European debating championships. They are here today with their teachers. I hope they have learned a lot from the debate here and I wish them well.