Donnchadh Ó Laoghaire (Cork South-Central, Sinn Fein)
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4. To ask the Taoiseach and Minister for Defence how he will ensure adequate funding for the Defence Forces in line with the report of the commission on the Defence Forces. [6102/25]

Donnchadh Ó Laoghaire (Cork South-Central, Sinn Fein)
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We have heard a lot about defence spending in recent weeks but the truth on the ground is that the Defence Forces are in a precarious position because of Government underfunding. We currently have fewer than 8,000 members of the Permanent Defence Force. This is well below establishment, not to mind the 11,000 recommended under stage 2 in the report of the Commission on the Future of the Defence Forces. Morale is very low. Does the Tánaiste regret the neglect of the Defence Forces by the Government and how does he intend to ensure that we have Defence Forces that are fit for purpose?

Simon Harris (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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I thank the Deputy for this important question. I want him, the men and women of Óglaigh na hÉireann and the people of Ireland to know that as Minister for Defence, I am deeply committed to the transformation of the Defence Forces into a modern, fit-for-purpose organisation to defend the State and meet the challenges of today and the future.

Across Europe, all countries including Ireland, are experiencing an increasingly contested, dynamic and volatile international security environment. There is a need for us to be seen to take our own security responsibilities seriously and we have seen significant increases in our defence spending in the past few years in response to that, which has allowed us to procure much-needed capabilities. The Government has set out a future pathway to continue these expenditure increases.

The Commission on the Future of the Defence Forces was established on foot of a commitment in the programme for Government of 2020. The commission's report, as the Deputy knows, was published on 9 February 2022. There were 69 main recommendations and, with sub-recommendations, there were 130 recommendations in total. The report recommended significant changes for the Defence Forces and for defence provision in Ireland. It covered high-level Defence Forces structures, defence capabilities, organisation, culture and human resources, the Reserve Defence Force and funding.

Given the significant recommendations contained in the report, detailed consideration of these recommendations was undertaken. A high-level action plan and a memorandum for Government were produced and approved on 12 July 2022. This involved the approval of a move to level of ambition 2, LOA2, by 2028, as set out in the capability framework devised by the commission. The move to LOA2 is due to be completed by 2028. This will result in the defence budget rising from €1.1 billion to €1.5 billion, in 2022 prices, by 2028, as part of the annual Estimates processes. We need to go beyond LOA2 and the programme for Government is clear on that. I have been clear since taking up this role that we need to get to LOA2.

Donnchadh Ó Laoghaire (Cork South-Central, Sinn Fein)
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In recent weeks, we have heard lots of big speeches, announcements, lofty promises and big commitments. I welcome that the Defence Forces are finally getting some attention. I live in a city that has a large number of Defence Forces personnel who work in Collins Barracks and Haulbowline. They tell me they have heard all of this before. They have heard big talk and small follow-through. The Tánaiste says it is important that we are seen to be increasing the capacity of the Defence Forces. It should not be about being seen to do anything. It is about making sure - in the interests of the men and women in the Defence Forces and the Irish people - that the Defence Forces are supported. It needs to be about action rather than being seen to do things. The reality is that big speeches will not put boots inside the barracks' doors. Only proper resourcing and resolving the terms and conditions and income of Defence Forces personnel will do that. The men and women of the Defence Forces deserve better than what they saw from the last Government.

Regarding the Commission on the Future of the Defence Forces, will the Tánaiste give a timeline? He spoke about needing to go beyond LOA2. Currently, we are substantially below level of ambition 1, LOA1. Will the Tánaiste give a timeline for the Defence Forces to reach establishment and to deliver 11,000 PDF members?

Simon Harris (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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I have given a timeline for when we expect to reach LOA2, namely, by 2028. I will work constructively with the Deputy on this to see if there is potential to accelerate this process. That will be a matter for engagement with Government colleagues, the Taoiseach and the Minister for Public Expenditure, NDP Delivery and Reform. We are taking action on this and any objective examination of Defence Forces spending would have to acknowledge that we have significantly increased Defence Forces spending over the last few years. We now have the highest ever budget for the Defence Forces. Is it enough? The answer is "No". The Commission on the Future of the Defence Forces shows us very clearly that we need on a trajectory to reach LOA2 and then, as the programme for Government says, to head on to LOA3. Since taking office, I have asked my officials to prepare a detailed breakdown of costings for how we can get from LOA2 to LOA3.

Donnchadh Ó Laoghaire (Cork South-Central, Sinn Fein)
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The Tánaiste spoke about an objective analysis. Any objective analysis would find that the previous Minister for Defence, who is now the Taoiseach and leader of Fianna Fáil, Deputy Micheál Martin, kept giving unspent money in defence back to the Exchequer. It was €30 million last year and €70 million in 2023 and 2022. Any objective analysis would find that more than 900 people recruited to the Defence Forces since 2020 left within five years. We have had the embarrassing situation where ships have been put to sea with no functioning main gun because of a lack of specialist staff. The objective analysis is that our Defence Forces are at rock bottom in terms of morale and seriously struggling in terms of recruitment and retention.

The Tánaiste gave me an answer to a related question but not quite the one I asked. Talking about progressing from LOA2 to LOA3 is a bit off when we are not at LOA1. When will the Defence Forces reach establishment in terms of personnel?

Simon Harris (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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We will map that out in terms of the progress we need to make between now and 2028. The figures show that last year was the first year in a long time that we saw stabilisation and very small growth, which I do not overrate, in the number of men and women in our Defence Forces. We expect to see this trend continue. Let us look at this in the round. The budget increased each year from 2020 to 2025. A number of capital projects have been delivered. Two new Airbus C295 maritime patrol aircraft were delivered in 2023, with another C295 transport variant due for delivery this year. Also in 2023, two inshore patrol vessels were bought from the New Zealand Navy. The Defence Forces transport fleet was also renewed and there was an investment in Defence Forces protection measures and the upgrade of the Defence Forces communications infrastructure. All of the representative bodies I have met acknowledge these measures.