Dáil debates
Thursday, 23 January 2025
Gnó na Dála - Business of Dáil
2:05 am
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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As we reconvene this morning to discharge the functions that we have been constitutionally mandated by our constituents to perform, we have a duty to the people who have elected us to conduct ourselves in a way that is befitting of the office we hold. Our primary constitutional function is to nominate a Taoiseach for appointment by Uachtaráin na hÉireann.
The issue of the recognition of the Regional Independent Group as a technical group lies at the core of yesterday's dispute. On Friday, 17 January, I outlined in correspondence to each member of the Business Committee legal advice that my office had received from the Office of Parliamentary Legal Advisers. In that correspondence, I further sought submissions from those who did not agree with the advice I had outlined. I was explicit in that correspondence that I had made no decision on the issue of the recognition of the Regional Independent Group as a technical group. I invited submissions by close of business yesterday. Those of you who did not agree with the advice had the opportunity to make submissions and provide alternate advice for me to consider. I embarked on this process in the interests of fairness and recognising that Standing Orders could be open to interpretation. As of yesterday, I received one submission on the issue of the Regional Independent Group. I thank the authors of that submission. Overnight, I considered the submission and the advice that I received. I reviewed and discussed the submission with my staff.
It seems that there is significant ambiguity in the wording of Standing Order 170(1) and (4). I will seek the advice of senior counsel on this matter before coming to an impartial final decision. Therefore, in accordance with my solemn declaration that I will apply the rules as laid down by this House in an impartial and fair manner and the powers conferred on me by Standing Order 75(3), I have decided that to avoid prejudging my final decision on that dispute, the following technical groups will be recognised for the purposes of any debate during today's proceedings pending a final ruling on the matter: Independent and Parties Technical Group; and Independent Technical Group. I trust my decision today provides a roadmap for all parties and all Members to work towards an outcome that is acceptable to all. Thank you.
I now call on the Government Chief Whip to make a brief statement.
Hildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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I thank the Ceann Comhairle. I would like to update Members of the House that the Government recognises that there is an ambiguity in Standing Orders which requires clarification in differentiating between members of the Opposition and the Government. The Government believes our Dáil is ever evolving and that standing orders should evolve to reflect the membership and groupings of the House. The Government will today bring forward a motion to establish the Committee on Standing Orders and Dáil Reform, to fully engage with the committee and to work to secure agreement, as soon as possible and acceptable to Government and Opposition, as regards formation of technical groups and the rights of unaligned Members. The Government is fully committed to working with all parties and none in the committee to make the required changes that are fair not only to Members of this current Dáil but also to future Dáileanna in the years ahead. We will aim to have this resolved by 5 February.
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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The Chief Whip might move now to the proposal for today's business.
Hildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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I thank the Ceann Comhairle. It is proposed that the following arrangements shall apply in relation to the business to be taken today:
- the proceedings on the nominations for Taoiseach shall, if not previously concluded, be brought to a conclusion after 45 minutes and the following arrangements shall apply thereto: - the allocation of time shall be as follows:- speeches of a proposer and seconder ‒ 5 minutes each; and- members may share time; - on the determination of any nominations for Taoiseach, the Dáil shall, unless it otherwise orders, stand suspended for three hours;
- speeches by representatives of parties who have not made a nomination ‒ 7 minutes per party;
- if they have not made a nomination, speeches by representatives of the Independent and Parties Technical Group, and the Independent Technical Group – 7 minutes per group;
- Taoiseach – 10 minutes;
- the proceedings on the approval of the nomination by the Taoiseach of other members of the Government shall, if not previously concluded, be brought to a conclusion after 1 hour and 13 minutes and the following arrangements shall apply thereto:- the order of speaking and allocation of time shall be as follows:- members may share time; - the proceedings on the Motion re Establishment of Select Committee on Subsidiarity (European Union Legislative Scrutiny) shall be taken as the second-last item of business without debate and any division claimed thereon shall be taken immediately;
- speeches by Taoiseach and Tánaiste ‒ 15 minutes each;
- speeches by representatives of Sinn Féin – 15 minutes in total;
- speeches by representatives of the Labour Party and the Social Democrats ‒ 7 minutes per party;
- speeches by representatives of the Independent and Parties Technical Group, and the Independent Technical Group – 7 minutes per group; and
- the proceedings on the Motion re the Committee on Standing Orders and Dáil Reform shall be taken as the last item of business without debate, any division claimed thereon shall be taken immediately, and the Committee shall report on matters relating to the formation of technical groups in the 34th Dáil not later than Friday 31st January, 2025; and
- on the conclusion of the proceedings on the business outlined, the Dáil shall adjourn until 2 p.m. on Wednesday, 5th February, 2025.
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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I must now put the question on the Government Chief Whip's business proposal. Is the proposal agreed to?
Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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It is not agreed. I want to raise again the issue of suspending the House for two weeks. It has been quite some time since the election. We all know that there are huge challenges facing the country and, indeed, an expectation that we all get down to work. I see no reason and no rationale for a further two-week delay. In fact, people will regard it as quite scandalous, given the time-wasting so far, that we would rise for a further two weeks. We object to the Government proposal on that basis.
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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Thank you, Deputy.
Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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I do welcome the fact the Government has now, finally, acknowledged that there has to be a differentiation between Government and Opposition-----
Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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-----and that no TD can be in government and in opposition at the same time.
I would further say that this is not a temporary arrangement for today. There has to be an explicit understanding that, procedurally and in accordance with logic and the value of democracy, that distinction is recognised and respected throughout all of our work.
By the way, considerable time could have been saved yesterday had the Government the foresight to simply recognise that logic and the value of that logic to the functioning of the Chamber.
2:15 am
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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I call Deputy Ivana Bacik.
Ivana Bacik (Dublin Bay South, Labour)
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A Cheann Comhairle, I welcome your ruling this morning. I welcome the statement by the Government Chief Whip this morning and, in particular, the acknowledgement by the Government that there is a need to ensure clarification in differentiating between Members of the Opposition and the Government. That is the core democratic principle that we, across the Opposition parties and groups, united on yesterday and it is fundamental to our democracy.
We have no difficulty with the Order of Business proposed and, indeed, we welcomed the initiative to have a meeting of leaders this morning at which we could sensibly resolve matters. It should never have had to come to the situation it came to yesterday. We had been to the fore in seeking a constructive way to resolve matters yesterday. I am glad these have now been resolved.
Our objection to the Order of Business is on the basis that we do not agree with an adjournment of the Dáil for two weeks until 5 February. That is our objection. We do not believe there is a need for that long adjournment.
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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I call Deputy Cian O’Callaghan of the Social Democrats.
Cian O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay North, Social Democrats)
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A Cheann Comhairle, I thank you for the work you have done in helping to bring this to a resolution for today. I also welcome the statement from the Government Chief Whip and the engagement with all of the different party leaders this morning to resolve this. It should never have come to this. All of us, on the Government benches and the Opposition benches, need to work constructively together in the future to ensure the smooth and efficient running of the Dáil and to engage properly so these things do not happen in the future.
We are not in agreement with the postponement and with the Dáil not meeting again until 5 February. In the past, when there was a break after a new Government was formed, that was in different circumstances when a new Government came together very quickly after the election. It is now almost two months since the election so there has been ample time for people to prepare and so forth. I suggest that if the Ministers are not ready to face the Dáil next week, the Taoiseach and the Tánaiste certainly would be.
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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From the Independents and Small Parties Technical Group, I call Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett.
Richard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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A Cheann Comhairle, I thank you for your efforts overnight to try to resolve this issue. We want to state for the record that we were not in any way trying to obstruct the nomination of the Taoiseach or the establishment of the Government. Our concern, and we are glad that the Government has now finally acknowledged it, is that there has to be a clear distinction between those TDs who are in government and those who are in opposition. If the Government is as good as its word and honours the commitment now made, that there will be a resolution that is mutually acceptable to the Government and the Opposition, then that matter can be put to bed.
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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This is the Order of Business.
Richard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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However, we continue our opposition to the decision to suspend the Dáil for another two weeks. There are too many pressing issues for people in this country and we will be opposing the Order of Business on that specific basis.
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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I call Deputy Michael Collins of the Independent Technical Group.
Michael Collins (Cork South-West, Independent Ireland Party)
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Like others, a Cheann Comhairle, I thank you for resolving the situation that we have had, which has now been going on for seven days. The very democracy of the Irish Republic was in question here and it had to be resolved before we could go forward. We cannot have the situation that was being put before us. That looks like it is going to be resolved going forward and a settlement was made here today, which I appreciate.
We will not be supporting the suspension of the House for two weeks. We have a housing crisis, with 15,000 people without homes and young children without a home.
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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This is the Order of Business.
Michael Collins (Cork South-West, Independent Ireland Party)
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I know. I am almost finished. We have a health crisis, with people on trolleys. We have a cost-of-living crisis and we want to discuss whether the carbon tax can continue in this country if we are not to further crucify people. We have an agricultural crisis where people are not getting their payments and we have a fisheries crisis, where the quotas of fishermen are being taken from them.
Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North-West, Fianna Fail)
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Is this the Order of Business?
Michael Collins (Cork South-West, Independent Ireland Party)
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We need to be here, sitting in the Dáil, next week. On that basis, we will not be supporting the suspension of the Dáil for the next two weeks.
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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I must put the question.
Tá
William Aird, Catherine Ardagh, Grace Boland, Tom Brabazon, Brian Brennan, Shay Brennan, Colm Brophy, James Browne, Colm Burke, Peter Burke, Mary Butler, Paula Butterly, Jerry Buttimer, Malcolm Byrne, Thomas Byrne, Michael Cahill, Catherine Callaghan, Dara Calleary, Seán Canney, Micheál Carrigy, Jennifer Carroll MacNeill, Jack Chambers, Peter Cleere, John Clendennen, Niall Collins, John Connolly, Joe Cooney, Cathal Crowe, John Cummins, Emer Currie, Martin Daly, Aisling Dempsey, Cormac Devlin, Alan Dillon, Albert Dolan, Paschal Donohoe, Timmy Dooley, Frank Feighan, Seán Fleming, Norma Foley, Pat Gallagher, James Geoghegan, Noel Grealish, Marian Harkin, Simon Harris, Danny Healy-Rae, Michael Healy-Rae, Barry Heneghan, Martin Heydon, Emer Higgins, Keira Keogh, John Lahart, James Lawless, Michael Lowry, Micheál Martin, David Maxwell, Paul McAuliffe, Noel McCarthy, Charlie McConalogue, Tony McCormack, Helen McEntee, Séamus McGrath, Erin McGreehan, John McGuinness, Kevin Moran, Aindrias Moynihan, Michael Moynihan, Shane Moynihan, Jennifer Murnane O'Connor, Michael Murphy, Hildegarde Naughton, Joe Neville, Darragh O'Brien, Jim O'Callaghan, Maeve O'Connell, James O'Connor, Willie O'Dea, Kieran O'Donnell, Patrick O'Donovan, Ryan O'Meara, John Paul O'Shea, Christopher O'Sullivan, Pádraig O'Sullivan, Naoise Ó Cearúil, Seán Ó Fearghaíl, Naoise Ó Muirí, Neale Richmond, Peter Roche, Eamon Scanlon, Brendan Smith, Niamh Smyth, Edward Timmins, Gillian Toole, Robert Troy, Barry Ward.
Níl
Ciarán Ahern, Ivana Bacik, Cathy Bennett, Richard Boyd Barrett, John Brady, Pat Buckley, Joanna Byrne, Matt Carthy, Sorca Clarke, Michael Collins, Catherine Connolly, Rose Conway-Walsh, Ruth Coppinger, Réada Cronin, Seán Crowe, David Cullinane, Jen Cummins, Pa Daly, Máire Devine, Pearse Doherty, Paul Donnelly, Dessie Ellis, Aidan Farrelly, Mairéad Farrell, Michael Fitzmaurice, Gary Gannon, Sinéad Gibney, Paul Gogarty, Thomas Gould, Ann Graves, Johnny Guirke, Eoin Hayes, Séamus Healy, Rory Hearne, Alan Kelly, Eoghan Kenny, Martin Kenny, Claire Kerrane, Paul Lawless, George Lawlor, Pádraig Mac Lochlainn, Mary Lou McDonald, Donna McGettigan, Mattie McGrath, Conor McGuinness, Denise Mitchell, Paul Murphy, Johnny Mythen, Gerald Nash, Natasha Newsome Drennan, Shónagh Ní Raghallaigh, Carol Nolan, Cian O'Callaghan, Richard O'Donoghue, Robert O'Donoghue, Ken O'Flynn, Roderic O'Gorman, Louis O'Hara, Louise O'Reilly, Darren O'Rourke, Eoin Ó Broin, Donnchadh Ó Laoghaire, Ruairí Ó Murchú, Aengus Ó Snodaigh, Fionntán Ó Súilleabháin, Liam Quaide, Maurice Quinlivan, Pádraig Rice, Conor Sheehan, Marie Sherlock, Duncan Smith, Brian Stanley, Peadar Tóibín, Mark Wall, Charles Ward, Mark Ward, Jennifer Whitmore.