Dáil debates

Tuesday, 7 March 2023

Ceisteanna - Questions

Cabinet Committees

4:45 pm

Photo of Peadar TóibínPeadar Tóibín (Meath West, Aontú)
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20. To ask the Taoiseach when the Cabinet committee on education will next meet. [9814/23]

Photo of Mary Lou McDonaldMary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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21. To ask the Taoiseach when the Cabinet Committee on Education will next meet. [9603/23]

Photo of Ivana BacikIvana Bacik (Dublin Bay South, Labour)
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22. To ask the Taoiseach when the Cabinet Committee on Children and Education will next meet. [9675/23]

Photo of Richard Boyd BarrettRichard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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23. To ask the Taoiseach when the committee that deals with higher education and research will next meet. [10251/23]

Photo of Peadar TóibínPeadar Tóibín (Meath West, Aontú)
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24. To ask the Taoiseach when the Cabinet Committee on Education will next meet. [11110/23]

Photo of Pádraig O'SullivanPádraig O'Sullivan (Cork North Central, Fianna Fail)
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25. To ask the Taoiseach when the Cabinet Committee on Children and Education will next meet. [11292/23]

Photo of Jennifer Murnane O'ConnorJennifer Murnane O'Connor (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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26. To ask the Taoiseach when the Cabinet Committee on Children and Education will next meet. [11293/23]

Photo of Niamh SmythNiamh Smyth (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
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27. To ask the Taoiseach when the Cabinet Committee on Children and Education will next meet. [11294/23]

Photo of Gary GannonGary Gannon (Dublin Central, Social Democrats)
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28. To ask the Taoiseach when the Cabinet Committee on Children and Education will next meet. [10954/23]

Photo of Gary GannonGary Gannon (Dublin Central, Social Democrats)
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29. To ask the Taoiseach when the committee that deals with higher education and research will next meet. [10955/23]

Photo of Mick BarryMick Barry (Cork North Central, Solidarity)
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30. To ask the Taoiseach when the Cabinet Committee on Education will next meet. [11396/23]

Photo of Rose Conway-WalshRose Conway-Walsh (Mayo, Sinn Fein)
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31. To ask the Taoiseach when the Cabinet Committee on Education will next meet. [11506/23]

Photo of Cathal CroweCathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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32. To ask the Taoiseach when the Cabinet Committee on Children and Education will next meet. [11545/23]

Photo of Leo VaradkarLeo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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I propose to take Questions Nos. 20 to 32, inclusive, together.

The newly-established Cabinet committee on children and education will oversee the implementation of programme for Government commitments in the area of children and education, including further and higher education, with a specific focus on child poverty and well-being. The first meeting of this committee will take place shortly. Work has been taking place, with officials meeting organisations and groups ahead of the first meeting. The new committee will have a greater focus on improving the lives of all children in Ireland and giving them the best start possible. A strong and equal start in life will ensure every child has the opportunity to fulfil their potential.

Education is the great leveller. Through education, we can empower young people, they can develop the skills necessary to build a better life and to achieve better outcomes for themselves and their families. I speak regularly with the Minister for Education, Deputy Foley, the Minister for Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science, Deputy Harris, at Cabinet, and with the Minister of State at the Department of Education, Deputy Madigan.

Photo of Peadar TóibínPeadar Tóibín (Meath West, Aontú)
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The Taoiseach's announcement yesterday that primary school children as young as nine or ten years old should be taught about transgenderism shocked many people. The RED C poll and the Ireland Thinks poll suggest that the majority of people believe children in primary school are too young to be taught about transgenderism. Their research indicates that most people in this country believe children are too young to grapple with these very strong and important issues. Everybody wants to have compassion at the heart of the education system but we also need common sense. We have a duty of care for children. Parental choice and consent must also be components of the education system. Gender dysphoria is not easy. Children should be treated with compassion and support but this must be evidence-based. There is a growing number of experts who have said that the approach of this Government on these issues is not evidence-based. Have the Department of the Taoiseach or the Department of Education carried out research on the effect on primary school children of material on transgenderism being taught in the classroom?

Photo of Louise O'ReillyLouise O'Reilly (Dublin Fingal, Sinn Fein)
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Perhaps we may allow our business and deliberations to be informed by one simple phrase, namely, "Trans rights are human rights".

I wish to ask the Taoiseach about the thousands of adult education tutors employed by education and training boards, ETBs, across the country who still have no permanent contracts. Unlike other educators within the public sector, they have no incremental pay scales and have to sign on over the summer, Christmas and Easter breaks. They often have to wait weeks for their jobseeker's payment to come through. Three years have passed since the Labour Court recommended that the Government offer proper contracts to these tutors, yet it appears from the Department's response to last month's protest that no tangible progress has been made. It is astonishing that any Government would think it acceptable that a strand of educators within the public system could be treated so shabbily. The diversity of education and training these tutors provide to every age group and social demographic should be recognised and paid for appropriately. They are hardworking and committed public servants. They cannot plan for their future, they cannot get mortgages, they are stuck where they are, their teaching hours are capped and they are not paid for class preparation, planning or assessment work. In reality, they are doing full-time hours. As Head of Government, surely it is time for the Taoiseach to step in and sort this out.

Photo of Richard Boyd BarrettRichard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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I echo what Deputy O'Reilly said. Trans rights are human rights. Trans people have every bit as much a right to be recognised in every level of our education system as anybody else.

I wish to ask the Taoiseach about the PhD workers and postgraduate workers who are planning a protest in the next week or two outside Leinster House. They point out that the highest stipend for PhD students is €18,500. For many, it is much less. Even the highest level equates to about €8.80 per hour, which is less than the minimum wage. There are many tens of thousands of these postgraduate workers. In the EU, the average PhD pay is €32,000, multiples of the highest level here. In Nordic countries, it is €50,000 and the vast majority of those involved have proper contracts of employment. There is a review going on, but they are asking very simply that there should be a living postgraduate worker salary of at least €25,000. Will the Taoiseach agree to that? Will he announce it in advance of the budget?

Photo of Pádraig O'SullivanPádraig O'Sullivan (Cork North Central, Fianna Fail)
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Nearly two years ago, there was a particular crisis in Cork regarding the provision of special education places in schools. Thankfully, at that time, all stakeholders came together and the 50 or so children concerned were accommodated between two or three different schools and the establishment of a new school in Carrigaline. Two years on, unfortunately, we are facing the same prospect, from talking to special educational needs organisers, SENOs, and other stakeholders. There are approximately 45 children between Glanmire and Youghal in east County Cork who will not be in an appropriate education setting come September. Approximately 25 of them have no school at all or are in mainstream settings when they should perhaps be in special school settings.

What guarantee can we give the children I speak of and the families in those situations that they will have appropriate school places next September?

4:55 pm

Photo of Jennifer Murnane O'ConnorJennifer Murnane O'Connor (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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My chief concern regarding children in education is the lack of supports for those going from preschool to primary and from primary to secondary. There is a facility in Carlow that looks after children with special needs and that has children scheduled to attend primary school in September who have never seen a therapist. They have not had an assessment and that is unacceptable. We await a new special educational needs organiser, SENO, for Carlow. We are seeing massive delays in assessments. Some assessments from 2019 are only being done now. Recruitment is a major issue. I see these issues with my own eyes. Last week, I held a public meeting to assist the community to make the submission for the Department’s review on the educational needs of children with special needs. The stories I heard were horrific. I have one case of a child with no access to occupational therapy or speech and language therapy in school. His needs are acute. We cannot give children the correct access to equality of education if their support needs are not being met.

Photo of Niamh SmythNiamh Smyth (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
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I will speak on assistive technology schemes which support children with complex disabilities who require essential specialist therapy in order to access their curriculum. The recommended application rate is between 70% and 73%. In Cavan, however, the figures are starkly different. In 2018, we were at 70%. In subsequent years, we have fallen well below the average, as the following percentages prove: 65% in 2019; 53% in 2020; 48% in 2021; and 65% in 2022. Looking at figures for 2020 and 2021, we see that 50% of applicants failed to access the scheme. Education becomes more daunting and stress levels rise, leading to anxiety and erosion of confidence. The overall well-being, educational progress and holistic development of each applicant is paramount. Aside from the formal diagnosis we need to show compassion. The Minister for Education is undertaking a review of this matter. I ask the Taoiseach to put his full weight behind that to ensure more students get the assistive technology that is required.

Photo of Gary GannonGary Gannon (Dublin Central, Social Democrats)
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I join my colleagues across the left in the Chamber in expressing to the fullest that trans rights are human rights. Section 15(2) of the Education Act 1998 states that the board shall “uphold, and be accountable to the patron for so upholding, the characteristic spirit of the school as determined by the cultural, educational, moral, religious, social, linguistic and spiritual values and traditions which inform and are characteristic of the objectives and conduct of the school”. That section enables Catholic bishops to determine the type of relationship and sex education given in our schools. The same people evoke a strange attachment to science by saying that another group of people do not exist and are not worthy of love. Does the Taoiseach think it is time we had a referendum on section 15(2) of the Education Act in order to remove that power?

Photo of Mick BarryMick Barry (Cork North Central, Solidarity)
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Trans rights are human rights. Both the Taoiseach and the Tánaiste have rightly opposed sentiments expressed by the Catholic Primary Schools Management Association concerning teaching about transgender identities on the curriculum. The letter that body sent stated that any education relating to transgender identity in primary schools would be "counterproductive, generating unnecessary division in school communities where none now exists". It went on to use transphobic language, with reference to a "growing psychological contagion amongst young and vulnerable children". OMG. It is important that there be no backsliding on this issue on the part of the Government. The reality of transgender identities needs to be recognised. Children need to be taught about the world around them as it is and there should be no return to the bad old days of denying transgender identity in our schools. The Tánaiste said he was disappointed by the letter but surely it is no surprise. Objective sex education and Catholic Church control of education are oil and water. They do not mix. Is it not time to separate church and State?

Photo of Rose Conway-WalshRose Conway-Walsh (Mayo, Sinn Fein)
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I wish to register my shock and horror at the decision to end the eviction ban. That decision will be remembered for a very long time. Students will be among those left without a roof over their head. Student accommodation is part of the broader housing crisis overseen by Fine Gael over the past 12 years. The cost and availability of education is the biggest barrier to third level education, particularly for students in rural areas and students from Mayo.

The announcement that Government will co-fund 400 student beds in DCU is a step in the right direction but the Government is still dragging its feet. DCU has planning permission for 1,000 additional beds. Thousands more could be delivered across the higher education sector. Will the Taoiseach ensure that all shovel-ready student accommodation projects are advanced to reflect the urgency and scale of the student accommodation crisis and take the pressure off the private rental market? Will he provide the details of the arrangement with the colleges? He says that one third will be affordable. This means that means two thirds will not be affordable. Can I get clarity on this matter?

Photo of Leo VaradkarLeo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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I thank Deputies for their contributions. Deputy Tóibín referred to the term "transgenderism". I am not sure what that means. It is not an ideology nor a political philosophy. Trans people are people and they exist. I know people who are trans and perhaps the Deputy does too. They have always existed, although the may not have been acknowledged. When it comes to the education of children, parents and schools have a duty to inform them of the world around them as it is. Sooner or later, a young person will run into or meet somebody who is trans. Is it not better they have heard about it from their parents or teachers so they are prepared? It seems like common sense to me. It does not have to be a value judgment or to challenge anyone's religious beliefs or threaten their feelings. If you want to look out for children and prepare them for life and the world around them, you do not shield them from the reality of people and how they live their lives. You talk to them about it and you have to be ready to answers their questions. Kids are extraordinarily curious. If they see something or somebody they have not seen before, they will ask questions. You should be able to answer them. It should not be a case of using the phrase “Don’t say trans”. We have to have an approach that makes sense and teaches people about the reality of the world around them.

I hope that in this debate we all agree to try to avoid the kind of culture wars seen in other countries on the trans issue. The last thing the vast majority of people want in this country is a big row and fight between people who are woke and those who are anti-woke. People on both sides of that debate probably want that for reasons of self-promotion and other reasons, but I hope we can avoid that, keep it rational and keep it anchored in the centre ground.

On the industrial relations dispute involving tutors and the ETBs, I hope it is resolved soon. I will not get personally involved in industrial relations disputes. It is not that I am not interested, but I know if I get involved, every dispute will be escalated to the Taoiseach’s office and we will be expected to find the solution. That is not the way it should be done. It should be done through the Workplace Relations Commission, WRC, and the Labour Court, which is where these matters are resolved. I hope it can be resolved and I have sympathy for the tutors and the case they make.

On postgraduate students and workers, the Minister for Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science is working on this. He wants a better deal for PhD students. We are looking at what is done in comparable European countries and will see what we can do to match that or at least come closer to it. There is a wide spectrum as to what is done in different countries.

Comments were made with regard to children in east Cork who do not have appropriate school places for September. Deputy Murnane O'Connor referred to issues in Carlow and raised by Deputy Niamh Smyth referred to the need for assistive aids in Cavan. With their permission, I will come back to them in writing with a more detailed reply. I have some information here but maybe not the full answer. I would prefer to come back with a more comprehensive answer in the next week or two.

On the Education Act, I do not think a referendum is required to amend it. I would have thought that could be done by vote of the Dáil and Seanad, if appropriate. On the separation of church and State, we should not throw the baby out with the bathwater. Many schools are run by an archdiocese, or the archdiocese is a patron, including the primary school I went to and which my nephews have just left. Many schools have a Church of Ireland ethos, for example. Many schools are run by religious orders or religious trusts, and they run them well. In my constituency, where there is a proposal to remove some schools from the patronage of the archdiocese, the parents and teachers do not want that.

We should not force secularism on people who do not want it. If the school is run well, people like how it is run and the parents and teachers are happy, there should not be a change. There is room to recognise that much good work is done by religious bodies and they have a role to play in education and in other parts of society. They should not be consigned to the fringes or the basement, but it has to be an appropriate role that puts the public interest first.