Gino Kenny (Dublin Mid West, People Before Profit Alliance)
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11. To ask the Taoiseach and Minister for Defence if he has had engagement with his counterparts in the European Union; if he will report on those engagements; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [5168/23]

Gino Kenny (Dublin Mid West, People Before Profit Alliance)
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One of the Tánaiste's last engagements as Taoiseach was on 15 December in relation to the EU Council. Can he report back to the House on his engagement with his counterparts in relation to the common European defence?

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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Yesterday we had statements in the House in relation to the EU Council meeting on 15 December and I reported formally back to the House in respect of that meeting. I have corresponded since my appointment with a number of EU counterparts and I look forward to engaging with them in-person, both bilaterally and in the format of the Foreign Affairs Council and in the Defence Ministers format also. There will be two opportunities to meet my colleagues in March. In early March, I will attend an informal meeting of EU defence ministers in Stockholm and on 20 March, EU Foreign and Defence Ministers will meet jointly to discuss the strategic compass, one year on from its adoption by EU leaders. While the agenda for the March informal has not yet been confirmed, it seems safe to assume the discussions will be dominated by the ongoing war in Ukraine and the international community's response; particularly that of the European Union. One could also imagine that such issues as the utilisation of the European peace facility, the European Union Military Assistance Mission Ukraine, EUMAM, and the progress made to date on the implementation of the strategic compass will also be on the ministers' agenda. Indeed, a number of these issues featured on the agenda of EU defence policy directors in Stockholm yesterday.

In terms of the Council meeting, the strategic compass, and common security and defence, Ireland has decided to join an EU battle group in which Germany will take the lead role. We have consistently been part of battle groups and training and preparing in such battle groups which improves our interoperability with other forces we serve with on peacekeeping missions. I think that makes sense. We also have to reflect continually on the evolution of the European Union's common security and defence policy. Given the particular interests and concerns that we have, it is important we participate in those discussions in order that Ireland's position is well understood. Bilateral engagement is a key element in ensuring this is the case.

Gino Kenny (Dublin Mid West, People Before Profit Alliance)
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I am glad the Tánaiste touched on the issue around EU battle groups. Does he not think that Ireland's participation in these groups undermines Ireland's neutrality? That is a very straight question.

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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In which groups?

Gino Kenny (Dublin Mid West, People Before Profit Alliance)
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I refer to the EU battle groups which the Tánaiste has mentioned. Does this not erode Ireland's neutrality which has been a policy for decades? It has given huge credence to Ireland's international standing not to take part in any military exercise that is seen as, not defensive, but offensive. I read by this that any participation by Ireland in these groups in a breach of neutrality.

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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I have to disagree with the Deputy fundamentally because our military neutrality has always been defined based on non-membership of a military alliance. We are not members of a military alliance. We are not members of NATO. That is the definition of Ireland's military neutrality. We have never been politically neutral. We have joined the European Union and have been a member since 1973. We have been involved in battle groups since 2001 onwards. Participating in battle groups in themselves does not commit to any particular theatre of either peacekeeping, peace enforcement or any such thing. All such decisions would have to come back to this House, back to the Government and be UN mandated in terms of peacekeeping and Security Council resolutions. In no way does participation in a battle group undermine Ireland's military neutrality. When I was in Lebanon, we worked with the Polish troops, for example, and with some Hungarian troops. It makes absolute sense that there is interoperability on such missions otherwise it would be far more dangerous.

Gino Kenny (Dublin Mid West, People Before Profit Alliance)
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I disagree with the Tánaiste. This is a flagrant breach of Ireland's neutrality. If you look at Ireland's participation even in the Nordic battle groups, the evolution can be seen and how Ireland is being pulled into more of a European defence army. Even on the commentary in the House in relation to eroding Ireland's triple lock status, the former Minister for Defence, Deputy Coveney, has said in the past that this is open for interpretation and debate. The soundings thus far, particularly in the last year, suggest Ireland's neutrality is being eroded. It is being eroded by stealth and by actual participation in these groups. These groups are not defensive; they are offensive. Looking at Ireland's participation in these groups, they are offensive, not defensive.

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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They are not offensive. They are essentially a training preparation exercise. Our Army cannot be isolationist and not ever meet or engage with any other army or defence forces. That is an absurd position to adopt. Taking cybersecurity as an example, which is a huge threat to the country. Are we to be isolationist in terms of the threat of cybersecurity in this country? Are we to ignore the expertise around the world in respect of cybersecurity and in terms of hybrid threats that are increasingly a part of war? We need to have our own independent position as we go into engagement with others, certainly, and we need to have our bottom edge. Again, we discussed this earlier when Deputy Gannon raised the issue of the triple lock. The issue now for the forceable future is that Russia will determine whether Ireland ever again participates in a peacekeeping mission. We need to reflect on that. I would argue that this is a curtailment of our own sovereignty if we want to participate in a UN peacekeeping mission in the future. There may not be UN peacekeeping missions in the future because of that very fact and given the way Russia, and to a lessor extent, China, are currently behaving on the Security Council. We need to discuss these things openly.