John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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10. To ask the Taoiseach and Minister for Defence his Department’s response to the change in practice where the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform will no longer allow his Department to retain budget savings arising from the shortfall in the establishment figure of the Defence Forces; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [5160/23]

John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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What is the Minister and his Department's response to the change of practice whereby the Department of Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform will no longer allow his Department to retain budget savings arising from the shortfall in the establishment figure in the Defence Forces?

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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Again, that was a decision taken prior to my coming into office but nonetheless it is important to point out the 2023 Revised Estimate for Defence of over €915 million includes an overall pay allocation of €546 million, which is an increase of €19 million on the Revised Estimate for 2022. This overall allocation provides, inter alia, for all costs associated with the existing Building Momentum pay deal, for the recruitment of the head of transformation and strategic HR roles in the Defence Forces and for the implementation of a range of sectoral measures that impact on Permanent Defence Force, PDF, pay and allowances, as identified and prioritised by the Commission on the Defence Forces.

Some €468 million has been provided for the pay of members of the Permanent Defence Force. In previous years, as part of a long-standing arrangement, pay funding was allocated for the PDF establishment strength of 9,500, with any unused funding arising from PDF strengths falling below establishment being utilised to address spending pressures elsewhere in the Vote group, in accordance with Government financial procedures and in agreement with the Department of Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform.

However, as the Deputy said, a revised approach was introduced as part of the 2023 Estimates with pay funding for the year being based on prevailing strength, plus an anticipated net increase of 400 personnel, with non-pay subheads of the Defence Vote increased in recognition of the change from the previous unique arrangement. Arising from this changed approach to pay funding, plus additional resources provided as part of the budget, the overall non-pay allocation on the Defence Vote has increased by over €60 million in 2023, which is a rise of 21%, with virtually all non-pay subheads benefiting from an increased allocation. Therefore, the change has been of benefit to the Defence Vote overall. There is a guarantee there that as numbers increase, there is no issue with current provision for salaries into the future. The key issue from now on is that the level of funding allocated in budget 2023 and future budgets enables the Defence Forces to deliver effectively on their key domestic and international responsibilities and facilitates the structural, HR and cultural transformation required and recommended by the Commission on the Defence Forces.

John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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The practice that was allowed to develop over many years whereby the Department was forced to rely on the inability to reach the establishment figure was an inbuilt reliance on failure to plug gaps and shortcomings in funding for other elements and areas within the Defence Forces. It spoke of a lack of ambition and desire to address the chronic haemorrhaging of members of the Defence Forces. The Tánaiste might outline what the underspend on pay is in the context of the shortfall of 1,500 personnel versus the establishment figure. What is that real figure? While the Tánaiste is dressing this up as some sort of victory for the Defence Forces, the reality this speaks of is a continuation of failure, especially when retention primarily revolves around pay and issues around that. I ask the Tánaiste for a specific figure. What is the underspend on the payroll?

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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As I said, the change is that the prevailing number dictates the allocation, so there will not be an underspend in that respect. It is a sensible approach. The key issue is that the largest budget increase ever experienced by the Department of Defence occurred in the 2023 Estimate. The pay increases have occurred relative to the pay agreements and the recommendations. There are other recommendations that will improve terms and conditions for personnel that we are working on. Critically, we need significant investment for capital investment and non-pay allocation of resources. The arrangement opens up opportunities while protecting the commitments made by the Government on both the ambition to get back to 9,500 personnel and up to 11,500, which is the LOA 2 objective. Therefore, there are sufficient guarantees on the pay front. I repeat there is no lack of urgency about changing the recruitment story within the Defence Forces.

John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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Unfortunately, I must disagree with the Tánaiste again. There is a lack of urgency. I refer back to the failure of the Government to reach its own minimum targets for bringing forward the heads of a Bill on the working time directive. The Tánaiste outlined some of the positive measures that have been made on some of the allowance, but as we stand here there are many members of the Defence Forces who are still reliant on the working family payment. It is an absolute disgrace. The Tánaiste is portraying this as some sort of win-win for members of the Defence Forces but 500 of them have left since the publication of the commission's recommendations. There are still members of the Defence Forces sleeping in their cars because of an inability to afford accommodation. That is a failure of the Tánaiste and of the Government and it reflects a lack of ambition and desire to address the chronic, major crisis within the Defence Forces.

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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It must also be said there are many people in the Defence Forces who are pursuing very rewarding careers. It is our obligation to facilitate a rewarding and fruitful career for people, and lives for people, within our Defence Forces and there are many factors that can give rise to that. These include opportunities within the Defence Forces for progression, education, further learning, experiences in various challenging missions overseas, promotional opportunities and a good work-life balance, which does relate to the organisation of working time directive. A balancing perspective must be applied to the narrative around people working in our Defence Forces. Significant improvements have occurred in the last two years and that must be acknowledged. More is required and more improvements will occur.

10 o’clock

There will be significant investment on an ongoing basis in our Defence Forces arising from Government decisions that were taken as a result of the Commission on the Defence Forces recommendations.