Pat Buckley (Cork East, Sinn Fein)
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I will raise an issue about first responders. In Cobh in east Cork, which has a population of approximately 14,000 people there is a retained fire service but there are no first responders. The fire service is trained in first aid and first response. There was a case over Christmas where someone suffered a cardiac arrest. I spoke to members of the fire service. They were frustrated that they were sitting at home. They were well aware that something had happened but they could not go out to assist that person. In Cobh there is a strong community led volunteer base including a proactive Tidy Towns committee and an excellent chamber of commerce that is proactive and engaging. As there is only one road in over one bridge in Belvelly, it is sometimes difficult for the emergency services to access Cobh. I will not even go into the ambulances and so on. The crux of the matter is that this service is free to the individual when it comes to an incident. The frustration of the fire services in east Cork and especially in Cobh - that is the one I am talking about - is that they are trained and no one can give them a definitive answer as to why they cannot respond as first responders in such a vital case on an island.

A report published by the Minister, Deputy Darragh O'Brien, The Retained Fire Services in Ireland: a Review of Recruitment and Retention and the Future Sustainability of Service Delivery contained a caption I saved on my phone. It gave a list of items that are not charged anyway. The frustration is that while it is technically a free service to the public, there may be a charge to Cork County Council, it also includes a non-exhaustive list of waivers on incidents. I refer to where the report states "a review should be completed for any potential areas of response work that could be undertaken by the retained fire services for other agencies". I am trying to get a response from the Minister of State or some guidance on who I should go to, on behalf of the people of Cobh and east Cork, to say that if we do not have first responders in an area but have a retained fire service, it is wrong that the latter is not permitted to respond. The fire service is trained and capable of responding. It can respond. Why is it not permitted to?

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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I thank Deputy Buckley for raising this important matter. I will give an overview of the fire service.

The provision of a fire service in its functional area, including the establishment and maintenance of a fire brigade, the assessment of fire cover needs and the provision of fire station premises, is a statutory function of individual fire authorities under the Fire Services Acts 1981 and 2003. My Department supports fire authorities by establishing policy, setting national standards for fire safety and fire service provision, providing a central training programme, issuing guidance on operational and other related matters and providing capital funding for priority infrastructure projects. Fire services are provided in Ireland by local authorities in accordance with the provisions of the Fire Services Acts 1981 and 2003. Under this legislation, 31 local authorities provide fire prevention and fire protection services for communities through 27 delivery structures. Local authority fire services are delivered by approximately 3,300 local authority staff engaged at 217 fire stations nationwide - they do fantastic work - with 16 of these stations being staffed by full-time firefighters. A further four have a mix of full-time and retained staff and 197 are staffed by retained firefighters, including the one to which the Deputy's issue relates. Responsibility for the provision of emergency medical services, including pre-hospital emergency care, rests with the HSE, which operates the National Ambulance Service, NAS, and emergency departments in hospitals in accordance with health sector legislation and national policy.

Fire authorities created under section 10 of the Fire Services Acts 1981 and 2003 are empowered under section 25 of that legislation to carry out or assist in any operation of an emergency nature. The NAS may call for assistance before its crews reach an incident. Many fire services are equipped with automatic external defibrillators and the majority of fire services have trained their firefighters in cardiac first response and emergency first response to Pre-Hospital Emergency Care Council standards for health and safety reasons. Therefore, fire services personnel in many fire stations are already trained and equipped to a standard that could enable them to respond to life threatening emergencies. Given the infrastructure of fire services around the country and particularly in rural locations, the retained fire service is well placed to assist the HSE with responses to such life-threatening emergency calls.

As Minister of State with policy and legislative responsibility for fire safety and the provision of fire services by local authorities, a primary concern must remain, in accordance with the Fire Services Acts 1981 and 2003, that local authority-provided fire services are meeting their statutory obligations in respect of their primary role in the provision of fire services and fire safety. These responsibilities include the important activity of community and other fire safety initiatives, as well as response to fire and emergency calls such as road traffic accidents, river rescues and chemical or hazardous spills, for example. Fire services generally respond to calls for assistance from external bodies in accordance with protocols operated within the fire services' three regional communications centres. The feasibility of the HSE commissioning fire services outside the Dublin Fire Brigade's area of operations to provide a response service to life-threatening emergency calls in support of the NAS was discussed at national level at the fire services national oversight and implementation group, which comprises fire service management and staff representatives. It produced a discussion document to underpin discussions with the health sector. The document was discussed at the management board of the national directorate for fire and emergency management in July 2018. A number of issues, including the transfer of risk and mechanisms for funding, were raised. These remain as items of discussion with the Department of Health.

Any proposal for formalising this assistance would need to be subject to appropriate governance and cost reimbursement arrangements and to be set in the context of a service agreement between each participating local authority, the HSE and the NAS and must not impact on or adversely affect fire services' primary roles. It is critical that local authority and fire services' resources are not inappropriately diverted from their statutory fire service and fire safety responsibilities.

Pat Buckley (Cork East, Sinn Fein)
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I thank the Minister of State for his response. I will raise a few points in the short time I have.

The retained fire services are well placed to assist the HSE with responses to such life-threatening emergency calls. There does not seem to be any obstacle to that. The National Ambulance Service is simply protecting its patch. I have not heard of any engagement between it and the fire services. The Minister of State noted "it is critical that local authority and fire services' resources are not inappropriately diverted". It is not that they are inappropriately diverted. This person died while retained fire servicemen and women were sitting at home on Christmas Day knowing that an incident was taking place. It was not possible to get an ambulance onto the island. We are playing politics with people. The National Ambulance Service does not have the capability to contact the fire service. The Minister of State knows where I stand on the HSE. It is bloated at the moment. What I am trying to do here? As a local representative I would like, if possible, to meet the National Ambulance Service, the HSE, Cork County Council and the fire service in east Cork to tell them we need a strategic plan. We are short of certain resources but have the capability to fill those gaps. Yet the Minister of State's concluding statement, as provided, states "Fire services must be confident in their ability to balance commitments so as not to impede capacity to respond to their core statutory responsibility of fire service provision". I, the Minister of State and most people know that most people who are in the fire service, the ambulance service or who are nurses, doctors or clinicians get into it for the love of it and for the attachment they have to it. At some stage in life, something affected them and they wanted to do better for society. The reason I raise this issue is to ask the Minister of State whether it would be reasonable in my capacity to meet these people to address the gaps that are there. People are dying because of red tape between three agencies, when it could be simple to fix. These people are already trained and are willing to respond. I have done the defibrillator courses and so on, so I know what to do. The greatest thing in life is giving life and protecting people. I would like to know if that is possible.

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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Once again I thank the Deputy for raising the issue. As he identified, my Department recently published a review of retained fire services. That review made a number of recommendations, one of which the Deputy referred to, namely, recommendation 6.

It states, "A review should be completed for any potential areas of response work that could be undertaken by the retained fire services for other agencies." The review's recommendations are intended to support firefighters, improve working structures within the retained fire service and, ultimately, ensure the best service possible for communities that are served so well by the retained fire services.

The work and response profile of the retained fire services has evolved over the years. This can be seen in the increased support for front-line work and in the assistance for other principal emergency services such as the National Ambulance Service, NAS. The scope of such work needs further consideration as necessary in areas such as medical assistance, cardiac first responders, special rescues and support. Fire services would always look to assist other emergency services when called upon. However, there currently exists no formal arrangement between the fire service, the HSE and the NAS to provide a first response service nationally and fire services are under no statutory responsibility to provide those services on behalf of another service. Fire services must be confident in their ability to balance commitments so as not to impede capacity to respond to their core statutory responsibility of fire service provision, prior to formalising any additional service level agreements.

I will follow up on recommendation No. 6. There is a need for a national response and I will take that up with the national fire service to see how we can progress on that recommendation. There is a need for a national response to put formal structures in place. This is something I will follow up on with the national fire service in my capacity as Minister of State.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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I congratulate the two new Ministers of State, Deputies O'Donnell and Richmond. I did not get an opportunity to congratulate Deputy Richmond as his Topical Issue matter did not come up.