John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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I move:

That Dáil Éireann:

acknowledges that: — Retained Firefighters provide an invaluable service to their communities;

— the role of our emergency front line defenders, including Retained Firefighters, involves considerable personal sacrifice; and

— increased capital investment, new stations and equipment is meaningless if there is not an adequate number of firefighters to staff these stations; recognises that: — the recruitment and retention level of Retained Firefighters is at crisis level;

— due to current staffing shortages, the demands being placed upon current members of retained fire services are unsustainable;

— the ongoing failure to address the problems of retained fire services is putting the health and safety of both its members and the public in danger; and

— the current model of management of Retained Firefighters in Ireland is not fit for purpose; notes that: — a recent survey carried out by Coyne Research for the National Directorate for Fire and Emergency Management at the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage revealed that:

— the current crisis in retention and recruitment is forcing Retained Firefighters to work extra hours to make up for staffing shortages, where they forgo time off to spend with family, which is not a role conducive to family life and the retainer they receive does not come close to compensating them for the sacrifices that they make;

— the current conditions offer little incentive for new recruits to the retained fire service, and it is seen by many as a thankless role with little or no personal benefit;

— some 60 per cent of Retained Firefighters intend to leave the service in the near future, many within the next year; and

— the strain of being on-call 24 hours a day, seven days a week, in understaffed fire stations, with little hope of promotion, is having a significant impact on morale, and many highly trained, highly motivated individuals, who love the fire service and are committed to serving their communities, are being forced out of the job;

— the impact of the continuing loss of experience is devastating to both the retained fire service, and the communities which they serve; and

— responsibility for the current crisis in recruitment and retention of Retained Firefighters ultimately lies with Government policy, and not local authorities, and it is ultimately the responsibility of Government to resolve the crisis in retained fire services; condemns: — the lack of political leadership from the Minister for Housing, Local Government and Heritage, Darragh O'Brien TD, to resolve the issues which have led to the retention and recruitment crisis in retained fire services;

— the failure of the Government to meaningfully engage with representative bodies acting on behalf of Retained Firefighters, which has forced the National Retained Firefighters Association to ballot its members for industrial action; and

— the delay in publishing the review of the model of local authority "retained" fire services delivery which commenced in May 2021, and was reported by the Minister for Housing, Local Government and Heritage to be at an early drafting stage in February of this year; mandates the Minister for Housing, Local Government and Heritage, to urgently engage with representative bodies acting on behalf of the Retained Firefighters; and

calls on the Government to set up a cross-party Oireachtas Joint Committee to: — conduct a full and independent review of how the national fire service is delivered across the State;

— sit for a set period of four months;

— undertake a wide consultation of witnesses and key stakeholders to examine pay, conditions, and management structures of retained fire services; and

— bring forward a report on their key recommendations.

It is good to see the Ceann Comhairle back in the Chamber. It is my duty to bring forward a motion to initiate a process that will begin the work of resolving the very serious issues central to the crisis at the heart of the retained fire service. We need to be very clear: the retained fire service is in crisis and has been for a very long time. The recruitment and retention crisis is fast approaching a critical point from which it may be unable to recover.

In 2005, subofficer Brian Murray led a walk out from Bray fire station out of concern over the condition of the retained fire service. He told me that someone would die unless the very serious issues in the service were addressed. Within two years, subofficer Murray and his colleague Mark O'Shaughnessy were killed while tackling a blaze. Some members of their families are here in the Public Gallery, as are many members of the retained service. I have no doubt that the Gallery would have been absolutely packed with retained firefighters were it not for the challenge of getting time off. The deaths of Mark and Brian were caused by the systematic failures in a service that simply is not fit for purpose.

Firefighters say that, 15 years after Brian's and Mark's deaths, conditions are worse. While the Minister might point to investment in new fire stations and equipment, which is welcome, it is meaningless without the personnel to staff the fire stations and man the tenders. Situations continue to arise on the Minister's watch where fire services are simply unable to respond to emergencies due to a shortage of personnel. Many one-pump stations are supposed to have crews of nine. They are operating with 50% of the establishment figures with four or five personnel. This not only puts their safety at risk but also that of the public. In my hometown, Bray, for example, the fire station is supposed to be a two-pump station with 15 firefighters. It currently only has nine. It has not been able to operate as a two-pump station for at least the past five years. That is the case in many areas throughout the State. In other cases, fire stations have been forced off the run due to a shortage of personnel.

The service was designed for the 1950s and is simply not fit for purpose in the 21st century. Throughout the State, retained firefighters are in the process of balloting for industrial or strike action. They feel forced into doing so as a result of the Government's failure to engage or make any meaningful attempt to deal with the recruitment and retention crisis. In many areas that have already balloted the results have been an overwhelming 97% in support of taking industrial or strike action. They are being forced to do that simply because of their concerns not only for their own safety but also for the safety of the public.

I urge the Minister to take heed. This crisis will not go away. It is very real and dangerous and has the potential to impact on citizens throughout the State, if they ever find themselves unlucky enough to need the services of the retained fire service. The day has come where they are unable to answer the call because the Government has failed them.

A recent survey of serving retained firefighters indicated that 60% intend to retire or resign in the next 18 months or two years. The retained fire service will not recover from such a loss of experienced personnel. No organisation could survive that, least of all one which battles life and death situations every day.

I am asking Members, particularly those of the Government parties, to put aside party differences and support this motion. It will allow a cross-party committee to hear from key witnesses and stakeholders, to listen to the experts on the issues crippling the service, and to bring forward key recommendations for the Government to act on. It will complement any other measures being undertaken by the Government or other bodies. If we want a fit-for-purpose emergency retained fire service, things must change immediately. Let us listen to the firefighters and their motion. Let us pass their motion and work together to put in place a retained fire service that is fit for purpose and is fit for the 21st century.

Pádraig Mac Lochlainn (Donegal, Sinn Fein)
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Last week, the Dáil heard statements after the tragedy at Creeslough. Our fire services in Donegal were called to respond to that, as were fire service from across the Border. Over the years of road tragedies, and one example I am thinking of was in Inishowen, where eight people lost their lives in one incident, we called the fire service to respond. When there was a tragedy in my town of Buncrana where a family drowned on our pier, it was the fire services who were at the pier side. That is what we ask them to do. It is an incredibly demanding and traumatic job. I remember a member of the fire service in Donegal told me he attended a road traffic accident where there was loss of life. It came into his head that perhaps his son might be among them but he just got on with the job. He was one of the fortunate families who did not get bad news but that is what we ask them to do. That is what we ask of our fire service.

The motion is about getting to the point as soon as we can where we have a fire service that is fit for purpose and where the issue of pay and conditions is addressed once and for all. It is about not putting impossible demands on them. As politicians in the Dáil and throughout the country, we thank them again and again. This is about substance. It is about making sure fire service personnel get what they deserve once and for all for representing us. That is what this is about. I commend the fire service personnel who are here today to protest. They are in the Public Gallery. I hope the Government does the right thing and that we will work together cross-party to solve this problem once and for all.

Seán Crowe (Dublin South West, Sinn Fein)
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It is a daily occurrence where fire service vehicles are unavailable for deployment due to insufficient firefighters to crew them. Staff constantly battle exhaustion because of repeated requests to work overtime and cover staff shortages. That is what I am told by the firefighters. Simply put, we are putting our firefighters and the public in danger. We are gambling with people’s lives every day. This is not a new issue. I will focus on Dublin Fire Brigade. It has been highlighting severe understaffing and Government inaction for years. Staff shortages directly affect the emergency response services such as Dublin Fire Brigade. That must be prioritised. Understaffing or delayed response times put the public at serious risk. On-call vehicles leaving stations with less than a full complement of firefighters puts crews and the public at risk.

Dublin is constantly growing. It is a city of well over 1 million inhabitants and buildings are getting higher. We need a fire service that has the equipment, the staff, the capacity and the capability to respond to fires and all potential incidents. There was a major apartment block fire in Tallaght last year which required the bulk of Dublin Fire Brigade's resources on site to deal with the fire and the evacuation of residents. Had there been another major incident such as bad crash on the M50 or a fire on the northside, the results would have been disastrous, with Dublin Fire Brigade forced to triage and divert resources in the face of a serious threat to life. We must establish this Oireachtas committee and conduct a full and independent review of how the national fire service is delivered across the State. It should be a short, sharp review of the situation which would interview key stakeholders.

We must get to grips with this and put the solution in place before another year passes. The current situation is putting crews and the public at risk. It is putting the lives of everyone at risk.

Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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The retained fire service carries out an invaluable service in all communities right across the State. The work its members undertake involves a significant sacrifice, yet their pay and working conditions do not match the significant time, effort and sacrifice involved. Therefore, it is little wonder that the service is haemorrhaging firefighters. The loss of such dedicated, highly trained and experienced personnel represents a huge loss to the service and has to be addressed. The result of the loss of personnel is that the remaining firefighters are put under extreme pressure. This is compounded by recruitment and retention problems. We are seeing this in every local authority right across the State.

A recent study conducted by the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage laid bare the difficulties facing the service. Almost 60% of its members said they intend to leave it in the near future. That represents a crisis. If this comes to pass, it will mean the collapse of the service within a few short years.

In Drogheda, the largest town in Ireland, retained ranks have not been operating at their full complement since 2016. At present, only six out of ten retained firefighter positions are filled. This is a problem right across County Louth. When we look at the terms and conditions of the workers, it becomes clear to us why this has arisen. The firefighters work six 24-hour shifts in a row, with only two days off. That is 144 hours per week, during which they have to be able to respond to their station within five minutes. As Drogheda, which is but one example, grows in size and the housing crisis worsens, this will become increasingly untenable and totally unrealistic. Some firefighters are finding it impossible to adhere to the turnout time, which in turn affects their pay. I know a firefighter who sits in his car in a car park all day when he is on call to be able to respond on time.

Other issues affecting retention include insufficient rest periods between shifts and pay that does not reflect the work carried out by the firefighters. The Government needs to meet representatives of the service. Enough is enough at this stage. We also need a thorough review of the entire service across the State to address the issues I have mentioned. If the Joint Committee on Housing, Local Government and Heritage were tasked with the review, we could have the report by early spring. This would allow for real reform sooner rather than later. The time for the Government to act is now.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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I welcome the opportunity to speak on this. The proposals being put forward by Sinn Féin are to address the retention crisis, particularly in the retained firefighter sector. This is a matter the Minister must address. We do not have time on our side. Correspondence from the National Retained Firefighters Association outlines that the current staffing level is now at crisis point. The service is no longer fit for purpose. Sixty percent of staff intend to retire or exit in the near future. We are at crisis point due to the failure of Governments to engage with the firefighters' representatives. There is a danger to the safety of both firefighters and the public. Pay and conditions have deteriorated to the point where crews now feel they have no option but to consider, reluctantly, industrial action. Ballot returns show that 97% in some areas favour industrial action. This is indicative of the crisis we face.

Firefighters must work extra hours and forego family time, and the retainer pay they receive does not come close to compensating them for their sacrifices. Staff shortages are critical across the State, including Laois and Offaly. I have raised this with the Taoiseach on the floor of the Dáil. New recruits are not entering the service. We need a solution quickly. Crews are on call 24-7-12 in the various areas and are in understaffed stations. In Rathdowney, for example, the crew is down to five people, although there are supposed to be nine at a minimum. In Abbeyleix, it is down to six. That is the situation we are in. I want the Department to prioritise new fire stations for Rathdowney and Stradbally, both of which are in County Laois. However, unless we address the staffing issues, increased capital investment in new stations and modern equipment will be meaningless.

Sinn Féin is calling for the establishment of an all-party joint committee. Let us work together on this to have an independent review of fire services. The reviewers will have to consult all stakeholders and examine pay and conditions, management and rosters. The review should be completed within four months. The reform of the service must not be delayed any longer. I welcome the retained firefighters who were present today to make their case. Theirs is a very positive move. We need to hear what they are saying loud and clear and act on it.

Eoin Ó Broin (Dublin Mid West, Sinn Fein)
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I commend my colleague, Deputy Brady, on his tireless advocacy on behalf of all fire service workers, both retained and otherwise. I welcome the men and women of the retained fire service. Everybody here today will commend their bravery. Every time they go out on a call, they put their lives or health at risk. They are not just involved in firefighting as they are also involved in dealing with cardiac arrests, vehicle crashes, river rescues, chemical spills and environmental protection issues.

Earlier today, I took a few minutes to ask the firefighters what they want us to impress upon the Minister on the floor of the House today. They stated very clearly that the service is in crisis and that the 24-hour callout service for 365 days per year is simply broken and must be changed. They said that unless they are adequately paid and their rosters reflect the reality of their working times, they will not only be unable to retain staff but also will be unable to recruit. Therefore, there is urgency that I do not believe anybody could underestimate.

The firefighters also made it very clear that it is becoming increasingly difficult to recruit young people because of the cost of childcare and the cost of living. They are keen to have additional training, particularly to ensure they will be able to do the very best job for their communities and themselves.

I do not believe a single retained firefighter who voted for industrial action wants to take that action. They want the Minister to act and ensure they do not have to take the action they are balloting for. All I ask the Minister to do today is support this motion. He should support the very sensible propositions of Deputy Brady. He should also support the men and women in the Visitors Gallery and ensure they get the right pay and terms and conditions and communities get the service they rightly deserve.

Johnny Mythen (Wexford, Sinn Fein)
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I pay respect to firefighters nationally, including those in County Wexford and some of whom are in the Visitors Gallery, on their outstanding service and commitment. Their dedication to their communities is second to none and their passion for their job is exemplary. They are often the first on the scene for emergencies such as car crashes, cardiac arrests and suicide attempts. They are often the first port of call in providing much-needed support for families in times of trouble.

The current setup of the retained fire service is not workable. Recruitment has reached an all-time low because of the stark pay and conditions. The pressure on the firefighters' families is enormous. There are significant issues with work–life balance. As one firefighter put it, when you join the retained fire service, your family joins with you. There is a substantial question mark over EU law and whether standby hours count as working time under the working time directive, as was ruled in favour of a Belgian retained firefighter in 2018.

These issues arise in the context of other crises. In County Wexford, you must live within 2.5 km of the station to be part of a retained crew. With the acute housing crisis, this is nearly impossible for people, and many cannot secure a mortgage. The cost-of-living crisis is putting additional pressure on crews, resulting in experienced and passionate firefighters having to leave the job because of financial pressure. This loss of expertise is detrimental to the service. Firefighters I have spoken to are adamant that within five years or less, if the current conditions are allowed to continue, there will be no one left in the service.

We need an Oireachtas committee to conduct a full and independent review of how the national fire service is delivered. We need key recommendations on the issues outlined today, such as pay, conditions and management structures within the service. It is no use providing new fire stations if there is no one to man them. It is like buying a new car but discovering too late that there is no one to drive it. I ask all Deputies to support this motion.

Darragh O'Brien (Dublin Fingal, Fianna Fail)
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I move amendment No. 1:

To delete all words after "Dáil Éireann" and substitute the following: "acknowledges that:

— Retained Firefighters are highly committed frontline responders providing an exceptional service within their communities;

— the retained fire service has been shown to be highly effective in dealing with a wide range of emergencies, working closely with other emergency services;

— the Minister for Housing, Local Government and Heritage has directed the National Directorate for Fire and Emergency Management to complete a review of the recruitment, retention and future sustainability of the retained fire service, with the findings and recommendations of this review to be submitted to the Minister in December 2022; and

— the preliminary findings of the current review clearly demonstrate the need to adapt the existing service delivery model, to enable a good work-life balance for Retained Firefighters and to promote the strengths inherent in the retained fire service;

recognises that:

— fire service policy in Ireland is based on Keeping Communities Safe - A Framework For Fire safety in Ireland, that sets out a risk management approach to service provision, defining fire service roles, response standards and service delivery structures;

— it is clear from the preliminary findings of the current review that the work-life balance for Retained Firefighters needs to be addressed to make the retained fire service an attractive employment option, and this will require significant redesign of the current rostering model;

— it is also clear that while there is a need to address the problems being encountered in attracting and retaining Retained Firefighters generally, a focus needs to be placed on ensuring that the retained fire service is seen as a career where women too can develop and have a satisfying career;

— comprehensive updates on the progress of the report have been positively received by the Fire Services National Oversight and Implementation Group (FSNOIG), with broad agreement that the survey outcomes are reflective of previous feedback received directly from retained fire service members;

— the FSNOIG remains the appropriate forum for feedback on the review and implementation of the recommendations; and

— implementing the recommendations of this review should commence as soon as possible at national and local level, with an emphasis on continued engagement with all stakeholders; and

notes that:

— while there is significant urgency in moving forward with the implementation of this review's recommendations, the capacity and the resilience of the fire service has been shown to be robust through an external validation process in 2016, and a capacity review in 2020;

— while the recruitment and retention issues are serious, it is important nevertheless to place these issues in the context of a service that has repeatedly been shown to be operationally ready and resilient, as demonstrated by the very strong response by the retained fire service throughout the Covid-19 public health emergency;

— retained fire services operate an Incident Command System supported by standard operating guidelines, with appropriate risk control measures, which underpin the highest levels of operational safety to protect fire crews responding into hazardous situations;

— a figure of 4.3 deaths per million of population of fire fatalities positions Ireland among countries with very low fire fatality rates;

— the Fire Service Capital Programme 2021-2025 is in place, supporting the construction of new fire stations, procurement of fire appliances and necessary equipment, with an allocation of €61 million; and

— the number of frontline fire service staff have been maintained at a consistently high level, even at a time when staffing numbers were, of necessity, reduced in other areas of local authorities, and there are currently 218 fire stations throughout the country with 3,245 serving fire service personnel, of whom 1,206 are full-time and 2,039 are retained on a 24-hours a day basis."

I thank Deputy Brady and his colleagues for tabling this motion and providing time for this debate. I welcome the members of the retained service who are here this evening in the Gallery.

It is an important debate. As many of those present know, I have had a real admiration for and interest in the work of our fire services for many years - long before I ever had ministerial responsibility for this aspect of my portfolio. It is an area of responsibility that I retain directly and one that I take very seriously. I visit fire stations on a regular basis. I meet firefighters, senior management and local authorities. I always take the time to talk and to listen. I will address many of the issues that have been raised here this evening. I want to see how things are working on the ground and ask what I as Minister and my Department can do to improve things.

We have 2,065 retained firefighters in this country. We have just over 1,200 permanent firefighters, who deserve to be supported. As Minister with responsibility for the fire service, I am acutely aware that retained firefighters provide an invaluable service that is essential to their own communities and to the public. There is no doubt but that retained firefighters, first and foremost, save lives, prevent damage to residential and commercial property, protect critical infrastructure and safeguard our environment. The work of these brave men and women is dangerous, physically challenging and psychologically demanding. Our firefighters are an elite front-line service staffed by dedicated and selfless people serving their communities around the clock all year round.

This was reinforced to me as I closely followed the response of the fire service in Donegal, which is a retained service, in the aftermath of the Creeslough tragedy. Like everyone here, I witnessed their dedication and courage and saw the training and professionalism in action, dealing with the devastating destruction that impacted the heart of that community in Creeslough. The response to this terrible tragedy involved a tremendous co-operative effort between fire services, An Garda Síochána, the National Ambulance Service, the Coast Guard, Donegal County Council staff, HSE staff and colleagues across the Border as well. It demonstrated to me that the systems we have in place in the form of the guidance document, A Framework for Major Emergency Management, work. Its principles guide those who manage the various intricate strands of co-ordination necessary to ensure an effective response to such incidents. I again take this opportunity to convey my deepest condolences to those who lost family and friends, and genuinely thank all of those who were involved in the rescue operations.

I am acutely aware of the very significant challenges associated with both retention and recruitment of retained fire personnel being experienced in some areas around the country. As Minister with responsibility, I took note of comments that came out of the review that was undertaken of all fire services to identify lessons, review good practice and assess resilience measures during the response to the public health emergency. This report, Response, Recovery and Resilience, presented to the management board of the National Directorate for Fire and Emergency Management, NDFEM, highlighted the common challenges being shared by many fire services in recruitment and retention of retained firefighters and the urgent need to review the model of service delivery. As a result, I requested the management board of the national directorate to undertake such a review, the terms of which were agreed by the board. I am pleased to inform the House that a report detailing the findings of this review is in the final stages of preparation. That was based on meetings, collaborative discussions and engagement with key stakeholders, most importantly, the staff and management representatives in the retained fire services themselves. This process was underpinned by the pre-existing structures and relationships that we have between the local authorities and the NDFEM. It would concern me somewhat if there was any doubt about the consultation involved when this process was undertaken. We must now move towards implementation. At the outset, a quantitative survey was carried out of retained firefighters to evaluate their role and seek their opinions of the retained fire service. Of those surveyed, more than 900 retained personnel responded, including 869 current members and approximately 65 who had recently retired.

My Department and I have always been conscious of the need to fully engage with retained firefighters and their representatives, together with the employer side. These matters have implications for both sides. The national directorate has worked closely with the Local Government Management Agency, LGMA, and has engaged on numerous occasions with the fire services national oversight and implementation group, FSNOIG, which Members know is chaired by David Begg. For those who are not familiar with it, the formation of this oversight and implementation group was at the request of SIPTU, which is the union mandated to represent retained firefighters. I have met the group and SIPTU representatives as well. Its establishment was greeted by staff representatives as a "means by which our members in both the full-time and retained fire services will have full participation in the future development of a modern, effective and efficient fire and rescue service." An overview of the findings of this review have been shared with staff representatives through FSNOIG and with the NDFEM management board, and they have been broadly welcomed. Implementing the recommendations of the retained review is an absolute priority for me. This will require a sequence of steps that will include the development of a new model for service delivery with rostered time off for retained firefighters to improve their work-life balance. I believe this is the best course of action.

The opportunity must now be given for engagement with all sides to ensure we have a fire service model that works for the public it serves and ensures that all retained firefighters have an appropriate work-life balance. That will allow us to attract new recruits into the service and retain the very valuable experience of staff within the retained fire services. While the recommendations of this review have yet to be approved, an overview of the findings have been shared with staff representatives and with the board. The findings point to some very challenging issues in terms of structure, culture and service delivery. It is clear that issues in relation to work-life balance, rostering models, area-risk categorisation and pay and conditions are all ones that now need to be addressed.

The activity levels within the service are also challenging, with 76% of stations responding to fewer than three calls per week, and the trend of incident levels dropping over the longer term. This impacts on the salary that can be earned by retained firefighters. The most striking finding revealed by research on the profile of the workforce is the shockingly low level of participation by female firefighters, at less than 2%. I believe that a focus now needs to be placed on ensuring that the retained fire service is seen as an attractive option in which women can develop a career.

My Department continues its support for all fire services in Ireland, with a new capital programme of €61 million over five years. This will continue to support the building of 12 new fire stations already under way, the provision of a further six new fire stations, as well as nine station refurbishments. In order to maintain a reliable fleet in optimal condition, a total of €27.7 million has been allocated for fire appliances, which will be delivered in two tranches. In the first tranche, 35 new appliances will be provided at an approximate cost of €16 million. The NDFEM is currently working with the Office of Government Procurement on a potential extension of the fire appliance scheme, to run from May 2023 to May 2025, with a further budget of €17 million. A further €5 million will support the procurement of other fire and rescue equipment and €2 million has been allocated to further progress the Ctrí programme, the new command and control system for 999 call answering.

My Department also continuously works with local authorities on the training of all firefighters. While I fully respect the bona fides of the points put across, I reject one comment that has been made this evening. Plant and equipment are crucially important. We must make sure that stations are upgraded, new stations are built and that firefighters, both full-time and retained, have access to the best equipment possible and that we expand it. It is not the case that it is of no use. We accept the issues identified in the review. The recommendations following on from it will shortly be published.

There are the issues with pay and conditions. There are issues with rostering to ensure a proper work-life balance and that we have a mechanism that means the service is seen as attractive to new entrants. That is what I want to happen and it is why we will proceed quickly with the full publication of those recommendations. We will work them through to implementation with management and most importantly with staff and staff representatives, who have engaged in this process heretofore. I am very serious about seeing this through towards implementation and I welcome support from Deputies across the House for the implementation of improved pay and conditions and rostering. The way to do that is not by kicking it off to the joint committee. Much of that work has been done already with regard to the review itself, the high-level recommendations of which have been given to staff representatives. It is now about getting that published and working through the recommendations there to see how quickly we can implement them.

I hope my bona fides in this regard are there for people to see. We have ensured we have a capital plan. It is so important the equipment our firefighters use and the stations they work out of are of the standard required in modern-day Ireland. We now want to ensure staff themselves have the pay, rostering and work conditions they deserve and I am committed to doing that. I am happy to work with Members across the House and with firefighters across the country. I meet them regularly and met some as recently as yesterday during my visit to Kilkenny. I commend them on the work they do and want to see those recommendations through to implementation.

Ruairi Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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I will take the positives from what the Minister said. There was acceptance the model for retained firefighters is not working and that the issues with pay, conditions, rostering and the fact the job is not attractive must be dealt with. That is why the firefighters are watching proceedings from the Gallery at the moment. It is the reason a huge amount of them made the journey to Dublin. We all realise we are talking about local authorities across this State that are under severe pressure when it comes to being able to put a full quotient of firefighters into operation. In many cases local authorities cannot put forward a full complement. That means we are dealing with firefighters who are under severe pressure.

The Minister spoke, as Deputy Mac Lochlainn did, about what firefighters did in Creeslough. I am aware of what they do. The last time I went to visit a scene was close to my house in Dundalk, where firefighters bravely fought the flames at a waste plant and brought the fire under control. Councillor Antóin Watters and I spent a considerable amount of time with firefighters fighting blazes on the Cooley Mountains. We all realise the absolutely necessary work that needs to be done. People have talked about six 24-hour shifts, 144 hours per week, split by two days and then another six days of the same. That is just not doable in any way, shape or form.

Whether the Minister agrees with our motion and is going to follow through with the review process we are talking about or whether he is talking about an alternative, we know for certain we have a system that is ready to fail. In County Louth, Deputy Munster and Councillor Joanna Byrne have been to the forefront in talking about the huge difficulties in Drogheda. From speaking to retained firefighters from Carlingford to Drogheda, we know we do not have a system that is working and fit for purpose. We need action to happen as soon as possible. We do not particularly care how the Minister does it but he must make it happen as soon as possible.

Pa Daly (Kerry, Sinn Fein)
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I commend Deputy Brady on proposing the motion. He has a long history of advocacy on this issue. Credit must also go to the National Retained Firefighters Association of Ireland.

We debate health and emergency measures in the House regularly and the issues that occur in other areas are unfortunately relevant here too. Fire services are understaffed to dangerous levels and experienced firefighters are leaving at a rapid rate. The sacrifices we ask these individuals to make on our behalf are extreme and many face the risk of death and injury weekly. A poor work-life balance, bad conditions, and paltry pay all play a role in many walking away. With a guaranteed income of only €8,500, many find obtaining a mortgage a struggle. This is in a job where people are on call 24-7 and have fewer days off per year than do those in similar roles. This puts a massive strain on people and their families. I spoke to a firefighter from Kerry today who said he could be out in the car with his children and get a call, meaning his partner has to come to the station as well, so families are on call too. Pensions are poor and as a result progression is difficult, with a top-heavy management structure.

In Kerry there have been regular gorse, grass and bush fires. Radio Kerry reported that in one weekend last summer, nearly two thirds of calls were related to these types of fire. Firefighters must be supported when such events occur. There is a particular crisis with retention in Kerry. In larger towns like Tralee or Killarney there could be a number of calls but this decreases across the county. In addition, firefighters face difficulty when it comes to weather warnings as there are no nationally-agreed protocols on whether it is safe or not for them to work during such warnings. The national directorate has no representation of retained firefighters on it and there is a worrying element of confusion about the future of the service. This was added to by the Taoiseach who told my colleague, Deputy Stanley, the issues must be dealt with by the local authorities in the context of existing industrial relations mechanisms. However, more recently he changed his tune and questioned whether local authorities should have retained firefighters at all. That is not good enough for the public or for workers. We need an urgent review of pay and conditions on a cross-party basis and I call on all Kerry Deputies to support this motion.

Sorca Clarke (Longford-Westmeath, Sinn Fein)
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Copies of the Minster's speech have not been circulated. Perhaps that could be rectified before the end of the debate.

The cause and effect of why we are debating this matter are clear, namely, a lack of political leadership over many years, almost a disdain for retained fire services, a model of delivery that is broken and now the fact 60% of firefighters intend to leave with many of them planning to do so within the next year.

I am somewhat perplexed by the Government amendment in which the Minister sees fit to compare firefighters to other staff in local authorities. With the greatest of respect to them, to say it is like apples and oranges comes nowhere near it. Increases in capital investment, refurbishment of stations and all the new equipment are all meaningless if there are not enough firefighters to use it. Any investment must be done on a fit-for-purpose model and with the appropriate oversight. The retained firefighters cannot retain experienced personnel, nor recruit significant amounts of new members, due to the pay and conditions of the job. That is what the focus of the Government should be.

I take this opportunity to acknowledge the role of our retained fire services, especially the valued first responders from both Westmeath and Longford, who are in the Gallery this evening with their colleagues. I thank them for their tireless work and their commitment. I thank also their families and employers, without whose support they simply would not be able to do the valuable work we need and ask them to do. Despite all the problems, many of which the Minister listed, they show up, they do their job and they serve our communities to the best of their abilities. Despite this, contained in the Government amendment the Minister has the audacity to cite "4.3 deaths per million of population of fire fatalities" as if these firefighters' only role is to turn up to fires. That is what is insinuated in this.

We are all in agreement this situation cannot be allowed to continue. I am going to ask, as my colleagues have done before, that the Minister support this motion. The review he mentioned apparently went to him as a draft in February and it is now November. The commitment by the firefighters is not being met by a similar level of commitment from the Government. That is a fundamental flaw in any solution that may be put forward. These are professional and dedicated people. They want to make the fire service better. They want to make it a safer place to work for all their members but that commitment needs to be matched by the Government.

Dessie Ellis (Dublin North West, Sinn Fein)
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I welcome the firefighters in the Gallery and thank them for bringing this to the Dáil. They are the courageous men and women who put their lives on the line for us daily and we owe them a debt of gratitude. Fire services face huge challenges when it comes to keeping their firefighters ready for the dangerous tasks they face each day, in their response times and in ensuring they can keep communities safe.

It is clear there is a developing crisis in the fire service, however, particularly with regard to retention. In a report to be completed by the end of the year by a project team under the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage into recruitment and retention issues within the retained fire services, some of its conclusion showed that 74% of retained fire services have difficulty in recruiting firefighters while a further 45% have difficulty in retaining firefighters. Staff shortages meant that up to four trucks were not in service because the fire service did not have the staff to operate them.

This is a very serious matter with huge implications not just for the safety of the firefighters, but also for their ability to carry out the tasks assigned to them in a safe and professional manner. If a fire station does not have a sufficient number of firefighters then it does not have the ability to carry out all its necessary functions such as being adequately able to put out a fire at a premises, carry out search and rescue, ensure proper ventilation and water supply and ensure rapid intervention, all of which require a big team. This should be a minimum standard, particularly in a constituency like Dublin North-West, which is populated with large housing estates, high-rise apartment blocks and big hotels.

Retained firefighters face even bigger challenges and uncertainty on a daily basis. Retention and adequate budgets impact on the operation of the fire service including training, proper equipment and maintenance of the services. It also impacts on firefighter safety concerns. The safety of firefighters is a critical concern for all of us. They have a dangerous and stressful job. They risk long-term health issues by being exposed to smoke that may contain carcinogens. For our part, it is our responsibility as public representatives to keep our firefighters safe and free from all the problems they are facing. While the fire service is under-resourced and understaffed, all our lives and the lives of the members of the fire service are put at risk.

Last Friday, I spent more than two hours at the scene of an accident. It took that long to get the fire ambulance and ambulance services to the scene. The problem was that ambulances and fire ambulances were parked outside the hospital acting like a ward because they could not get people inside. The hospital was overcrowded and they could not move people inside. That needs to be looked at very seriously.

Joe Carey (Clare, Fine Gael)
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We move to the Labour slot. Deputy Sherlock has ten minutes.

Seán Sherlock (Cork East, Labour)
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We in Labour support the call of retained firefighters for a more sustainable and improved working model including decent pay, fixed incomes and structured, limited working hours that are consistent with the European working time directive. The current recruitment and retention crisis is a result of poor terms and conditions of employment and the constant failure to resource and fund adequately the retained fire service. Retained firefighters are on call 24 hours per day, 340 days per year.

Retainers are paid between €8,696 and €11,907 depending on experience. Salary and pay depends on the number of call-outs workers attend, however, meaning that many are forced to work second jobs or avail of social welfare payments to supplement their income. Furthermore, the lack of a fixed income makes it difficult for retained firefighters to get a mortgage. I have first-hand experience of that with constituents of mine. Retained firefighters are effectively locked out of social participation. When they are called to duty, they must be within five minutes of the fire station. This places severe restrictions on their ability to participate in everyday activities such as bringing their children to school, playing a football match, visiting relatives, attending social occasions or even going for a short walk. They are essentially under a form of house arrest while on call. It is unfathomable that we would expect these workers to put up with such conditions.

Poor pay and conditions have resulted in this crisis of retention and recruitment. Some sources indicate that as many as 60% of workers, and we heard this already tonight, are considering leaving the service in the very near future. Staff shortages among the fire service pose a serious threat to delivery and consequently to everyone's safety. If a crew responding to an emergency does not have sufficient numbers to enter a fire, we could be talking about a potential loss of life.

The last collective agreement made with retained firefighters was 23 years ago and the model has not kept pace with the changes to the socioeconomic and working landscape of the country. Retained firefighters are suffering economically, socially and mentally. It is time the Government introduced a more sustainable model that will address the recruitment and retention crisis and show these vital workers that it recognises their value and contribution to our safety as citizens by providing them with good pay and working conditions. They deserve nothing less. They are our friends, neighbours and family members. We know them; they live within our communities. They are always around and always on call. We must value them.

I echo the points of previous Deputies in respect of the fact that we have not been issued with a copy of the Minister's speech. It is important in debates like this for us to have a copy in order that we can parse the words of the Minister as he is speaking so we can respond on the hoof, as it were. I note that he said the review will be published shortly. He talked about changes in structures, culture and the delivery model. He spoke about a sequence of steps for a new model of delivery. To be fair to him, I have no doubt about the Minister's bona fides in seeking to arrive at a solution whereby everybody can be dealt with to the satisfaction of all. I suggest to the Minister that this is not just about statistics regarding fires. We know it is important to have an assessment of the other services that are delivered by retained firefighters in terms of call-outs. There needs to be a quantitative and qualitative analysis of the types of call-outs that take place in communities such as those I serve in which firefighters are called out for any manner and number of reasons. That must also be factored in when the Minister talks about a new model of delivery.

The bottom line for all of us is that in supporting the Sinn Féin motion, we acknowledge the role of firefighters within our communities. We have all done that collectively tonight but we must now move beyond the phase of empathy and sympathy for their position into a phase where we have some regard to concrete timelines for delivery. If I understand the Minister correctly, he is saying he is moving or seeks to move in that direction and that he will work with the interested parties to deliver a new model. Inherent within that, however, must be a recognition of the pay and conditions of workers. There needs to be a significant improvement on that. If I were to ask the Minister one thing tonight, it would be to give us some concrete timeline in respect of when he expects this process to be completed with a view to ensuring that everything he spoke about in his appreciation of the work retained firefighters do will be recognised and in that appreciation and recognition of their role, the fruits of their labour will be recognised and we will see real and concrete delivery of better pay and conditions as the primary aim of all of this. Will he please give us the timelines as to when that will be delivered?

The Minister spoke of the implications for both sides. I am not quite sure exactly what he means when he says that. I suppose he is talking about the workers and the employer. There is always a way of finding solutions, however. Ultimately, we want to ensure that we have a cohort of professional people and that it is an attractive profession to enter. The Minister said that is what he wants to achieve. Let us take him at his word. He might give us timelines, however. I also note the Minister made reference to gender equality in respect of recruitment and retention. We absolutely support him in that regard. At the end of the day, I was hopeful that we would have a set of timelines.

I would not accuse the Minister of this, to be fair, but very often we have aspirational and empathetic statements by Ministers coming before us. What the people in the Gallery and those watching outside really want is a clear indication of the timelines for delivery. That is the bottom line. When will this new model be rolled out? What is the timeline and the stage-gate process that has to be gone through to ensure we get over all the hurdles and challenges? We must ensure that in the communities that we all serve, there is a fit-for-purpose retained fire service in which morale is high and the staff are happy to do their jobs. We must continue to recognise the work they are doing and ensure the terms and conditions of employment are fit for purpose and are not anachronistic. We should not take them for granted. If I dare say it, I think they may be taken for granted within our communities. That is something that needs to be addressed seriously. The process the Minister talks about seems to be real, if it is chaired by Mr. Begg. However, we will have to see implementation of it.

Cian O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay North, Social Democrats)
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I thank Deputy John Brady for bringing this motion before the House. I recognise his very long track record in this area, highlighting the issues that affect the fire services. On behalf of the Social Democrats, I strongly support the motion and support the retained firefighters who are campaigning for a basic level of decency in the way they are treated. It is a pity the Government has tabled an amendment to the motion. It would have been better for us to unite as a Dáil in support of it. I welcome the firefighters who are here in the Gallery.

The best way for all of us to support the work done by firefighters and all front-line staff is not through praise and plaudits but by ensuring that enough staff are deployed, properly paid and treated well, to allow the work to be done safely. Another one of the best ways to support firefighters is to ensure buildings are built in compliance with fire safety standards and regulations so that firefighters' and residents' lives are not unnecessarily put at risk. We have heard from other Deputies about the very professional, dedicated service that is provided by firefighters and retained firefighters in communities across the country. It extends well beyond the traditional work of firefighters and involves matters such as cardiac arrest, dealing with environmental emergencies and dealing with suicides. Fire services and retained firefighters play a key role in our communities.

The Minister rightly acknowledged all the key issues, including work-life balance, the need to attract younger people into roles, rostering, pay and conditions. However, I question the urgency of his response. He told us that these issues now need to be addressed. He has been in office two and a half years. These issues need to be addressed, but they should have been addressed before now. The Government should not have let it get to this crisis situation. The Minister said the review will be published shortly and that we must get it published. What is holding him up in publishing the review? Why has he not done it?

I want to address the issue of female participation which the Minister raised. He has a key responsibility in this. If he addressed the issues the firefighters are bringing to the fore around their work, conditions, pay and rostering, all that would help us get more female participation in the fire services. The Minister must address the issues that are being brought forward tonight and by the campaign run by the firefighters. The Minister mentioned the refurbishing and updating of fire stations throughout the country. As he knows, many of them were built 40 to 50 years ago. The facilities are completely inadequate in the context of the modern world. Many of the staff have no dignity or privacy in these stations. Some stations have communal showers. They also have locker areas in corridors where people have no privacy. It is not appropriate in any sense and certainly not appropriate in terms of trying to broaden diversity within the workforce. The Minister has responsibility for addressing this. The local authorities are left to modernise and refurbish the stations out of their own budgets, without sufficient support. This is an issue firefighters have raised with me.

It is not tolerable that fire services nationally are understaffed and under-resourced. The Minister knows that this puts the lives of firefighters, residents and the general public at risk. There need to be standards set out as to what staffing levels are needed in the fire service. They need to be set out in legislation to ensure that local authorities comply. There are plenty of international examples where we do not compare well with other countries.

The current system retained firefighters are operating under is archaic and not fit for purpose. It does not reflect the realities of modern-day life. It puts retained firefighters under significant pressure, for example, in having to pay higher rents to live in close proximity to fire stations, or not being able to secure mortgages. These are heightened pressures in the current housing disaster that we have. Not being able to travel outside a certain radius and being on call for such long periods, unable to visit or meet family, is particularly onerous. It does not compare internationally with other retained firefighters. It goes without saying that we need to keep and retain the skills and experience that we have in this very important line of work. We need an emergency response from the Government on this. Nationally and internationally, there is an issue whereby retained firefighters are not being replaced. In other jurisdictions, they have gone much further to address this than has been the case here. In the Shropshire, for example, retained fire service the maximum on-call time for members is about 48 hours per week less than is the case in Ireland. This gives people more flexibility. They also offer that people can be available for 75%, 50%, or 33% of the on-call time, which gives people different options. If we are looking to diversity in the workforce, that would help. On staffing levels, the authorities in Shropshire require 12 on-call firefighters in order to deliver a minimum of four firefighters. That is they way they operate. They have 18 to 24 retained firefighters to cover a single pump in a station.

I touched on the issue of ensuring safety for our fire service workers and residents. That is tied in with our building standards and regulation of building compliance with fire safety standards. High-rise buildings have been mentioned by others. There is a certainly an issue. Firefighters in Dublin tell me that they do not have sufficient training and that there is not sufficient equipment either. There is limited equipment for any building over seven or eight storeys. I also want to refer to the ban on combustible facade materials.

In Ireland, the ban only applies to buildings. It applies to institutional buildings and buildings over 80 m high. The situation here is that it is perfectly legal to put combustible material on the outside of apartment blocks of three, four and five storeys. That is in a country where we know there is somewhere in the region of 100,000 apartments with fire safety and other serious defects. It is completely irresponsible to continue to have a situation where combustible materials can be put on the facades of the buildings to which I refer. I would have thought after Grenfell, when more than 70 people lost their lives, that those lessons would be strongly learned here.

If the Government was serious about fire safety, it would address these issues and ensure that all fire services are properly staffed and resourced and that they are not understaffed and under-resourced. It would treat retained firefighters with the respect they deserve in order they can bring their contracts and conditions into the 21st century and so that we can have the fire services everyone wants to see.

Bríd Smith (Dublin South Central, People Before Profit Alliance)
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I want to recognise that 15 years ago this September we lost Bray firefighter Mark O'Shaughnessy and Bray substation officer Brian Murray. I attended a vigil for both of them at the time. Their lives were lost at a fire in the town. Our thoughts are with their families, friends and colleagues. Like others, I welcome all their colleagues to the Dáil. I went down and spent a few minutes with them earlier. I want to indicate to them that we fully support this motion from Sinn Féin and commend Deputy Brady on the work he has done in respect of it and for the work he has done over the years.

It is striking that 15 years on from such a tragedy, a vital and lifesaving service such as the retained firefighter service in the State continues to be treated almost like a voluntary service. It is relegated in its importance and stature, almost to the point that it is seen as equal to the lifeboat service or the Coast Guard. All of them save lives, but a lot of our essential services are run on what is practically a voluntary basis. When I talked to the men and women involved about the current conditions, pay and life they have, they indicated that it is almost voluntary. It is disgraceful that this is still going on. We cannot, legally, morally or physically, run any aspect of society without a fire service. Why this has happened and been allowed to degenerate so far is beyond me.

I cannot personalise it to the Minister; he has only been the Minister for two and a half years but he is of a party that has been in power for a long time and his colleagues in power, Fine Gael, were in power when he was not in power. The buck has to stop somewhere and perhaps it is the Department or it is the Minister and his predecessors. I accept the Minister's bona fides when he says that he is enthusiastic about the service, that he is committed to it and that he is waiting for this review to come out. Unfortunately, what the firefighters and I are hearing is that the review is done, that there has been engagement with the representatives - although that is not clear from the motion - and that we are waiting for the publication of the review. It is a bit like what I hear in respect of many issues in this House. I heard the same thing from the Taoiseach this afternoon about the retired workers Bill, which has been sitting for 17 months with no movement whatsoever, while people who are retired get older and older and more and more frustrated. Interestingly, today's march was dubbed the march of frustration and that is understandable from the point of view of the workers who are in the Gallery.

I did a Google search of the term "retained firefighters" today in order to find out what has been happening in the field recently. What comes up is that almost every county in the State is desperately trying to recruit members because there is a chronic shortfall in staffing, whether it is in Wexford, Kerry, Waterford, Sligo, Mayo or Donegal. All of the counties are all chronically short-staffed. This is not anything new; two years before they died, Mark O'Shaughnessy and Brian Murray took part in a local protest in Bray to highlight safety concerns around the issue of the understaffing at the station. Instead of having 15 firefighters at the time, Bray had ten.

Whenever we ask questions in this House about what is happening with this service we are told it is an issue for the relevant local authority. I was a councillor for seven years and I know there are issues with local authorities and the fire service but technically the buck stops here, particularly because we cannot run a society, legally, safely or any other way, without a fire service. It is a two-way street but the State does not value some of its most important front-line workers. Passing the buck to local authorities is not good enough. It has to stop.

The question was asked as to timelines for the review and implementation. The Minister will come back on that but my overall point on the motion is that these people did not travel here today and take it this seriously because the Minister was sitting on a review. It is because of the systemic neglect of these people and the service over many decades, and somebody has be accountable for it.

I want to focus on the question of being available within 5 km of your station and the knock-on effect that has. One of the key things that came up today in my discussion with firefighters was the question of housing, namely, the affordability of housing and the lack of availability of mortgages because of the pay they are on. No matter what town or city you are living in these days, rents are too high. If you can get a place to rent, it is too expensive. All of these problems stem from the Minister's role and job. In his Department, we also have a housing crisis that has a knock-on effect on the real lives of ordinary workers. The same could be said of nurses, teachers and so many people who leave this country or our cities because the cost of accommodation forces them to do so.

An astonishing 97% of these workers voted in favour of strike action. That has to be taken into account when the Minister is looking at how seriously they take what has happened to them and the frustration they feel in the context of trying to move things forward, all the while meeting nothing but obstacles and delay after delay. That is why they had to form the National Retained Firefighters Association.

The Minister has the capacity to solve this problem. The Government has done the wrong thing by proposing an alternative to the motion. That is the wrong thing to do because it divides the House on and us-versus-them basis. The evidence is there that those on the other side of the House, those who rule, have let down the men and women of the retained firefighter service over the years. If they end up on the picket lines we will be with them 1,000%. Most people do not want to ever have to go on strike but if they do so that puts the Minister and the local authorities of breaking the law because they will not have provided fire protection and a service for their citizens. We will be with them but we need to stop passing the buck and to take responsibility. We need answers from the Minister.

Mick Barry (Cork North Central, Solidarity)
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Cork City Fire Brigade has been operating at 75% strength for the past year. When the city boundary was extended in 2019, the civic fire service took on the station at Ballincollig, the retained staff there and an extra truck. Since then, the retained firefighters have been promoted to full-time positions and are based at the fire station headquarters on Anglesea Street in the city centre. In taking those positions they replaced other firefighters who retired. There are now no retained officers at Ballincollig and the city is left with four pumps, with only enough staff to man three of them. The number of full-time firefighters covering a population of 240,000 in the extended city boundary, is the same as the number that previously covered 126,000 people. Full-time staffing in the Cork city area is the same today as it was in 1975. This is dangerous for the population and the firefighters.

Late last week, the fire at R&H Hall should have been attended by four trucks.

It was instead attended by just two because a truck should always be kept in reserve. This summer, a woman jumped into the River Lee at Morrison’s Island. The person who went in to rescue her also got into trouble. A rescue unit crewed by two firefighters arrived on the scene, but no fire pumps were available - the nearest was in Carrigaline. The officer was faced with a choice of jumping in without sufficient back-up or watching the woman drown. He decided to jump in. That kind of stuff looks good on television. Luckily, he succeeded in rescuing the woman and the second person made it to the ladder on the quay wall. In reality, that officer risked his life by taking a chance he should never have been forced to even consider.

I call on the Minister to instruct Cork City Council to crew the Ballincollig fire station with sufficient full-time staff to crew the fourth pump. This is a vital and crucial issue. I call on the Minister to move on that. If Cork City Council does not take action, he needs to instruct it to do so.

Matt Shanahan (Waterford, Independent)
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As the Minister outlined and heard from other speakers, we have significant problems within the retained fire service nationally. I will give some statistics for the Waterford fire stations. We have 32 full-time and 16 retained firefighters in the fire service in Waterford city. This crew of 48 handles approximately 450 calls per year. Outside the city, Kilmacthomas has six retained firefighters who handle between 120 and 150 calls per year. In Dunmore East, four retained firefighters deal with 80 calls each year and in Portlaw, six firefighters handle between 120 and 150 calls. What is most interesting about this is that the retained fire service often deals with traffic accidents. The N25, which services Waterford and the Kilmacthomas area up to Dungarvan, is now the worst road in the country for accidents and we are asking a depleted fire service to attend those accidents.

I will read a couple of notes from someone in the fire service in County Waterford who pointed out the major problems the service faces. Most stations are only crewed to 50% manning levels. The person highlights that no negotiated agreement has been in place since 1999 for a composite pay agreement. The average pay for a retained firefighter is €9,000 per annum, plus payments for call-outs. As the Minister knows, the number of call-outs has declined from some stations as the permanent fire service rather than the retained service is being called out. Firefighters cannot get loans for cars or mortgages because these are guided by the retained amounts of pay they receive. The average pension for a firefighter with 30 years' service attending 50 calls per annum will be €28.67 per week. One would wonder why people would do it at all - I certainly do.

Retention is a big problem, as the Minister highlighted, as is the lack of work-life balance. Firefighters are being asked not to take time off because the service is so depleted. To maintain the service they cannot go outside a five-mile radius of their station when they are on call and they cannot take annual leave. Those are significant problems. I can well understand the frustration of firefighters nationally coming to Dáil Éireann today to try to present their case and see whether Government is listening to their problems.

I listened to the Minister’s opening statement with a great deal of attention. He highlighted the 2,065 retained firefighters in the country and the 1,200 who he said do an invaluable service and are essential to communities and the public. There is no doubt that the retained firefighters, first and foremost, save lives, prevent damage and assist in safeguarding residential and commercial property. We know exactly what firefighters do and the invaluable service they give. However, we also know we are not paying them properly. We know that because we cannot retain people in the service or attract people to the service. Some 50% of those who are in the fire service have indicated they wish to get out of it as soon as possible.

The Minister highlighted that a review is taking place and I understand it was established recently. He also said it will examine significant matters, including roster times for retained firefighters, improvements in their work-life balance, attracting new recruits into the service, particularly young females, and retaining the very valuable experience in the retained fire service. These are all very laudable tasks and nobody could argue with them but the question is how to achieve that. The problem is that firefighters, like many others in the emergency services, have been hearing that help is on the way and the cavalry is just over the hill so they should hang in there because we are listening and working.

The Minister, Deputy Darragh O’Brien, has left the Chamber. This review cannot come quickly or hard enough. We saw in the incident in Creeslough recently just how important the fire service is. What would we have done up there after that explosion if there had not been a manned fire service available to present with the ambulance people? How would that have looked? I ask the Minister to expedite this review and pay firefighters properly. They must be given proper terms and conditions for the critical work they do in supporting and helping our communities.

Seán Canney (Galway East, Independent)
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I welcome the opportunity to speak. I thank Sinn Féin for tabling the motion. Last week, during questions on policy and promised legislation, I raised this issue with the Taoiseach and the Minister, Deputy Darragh O’Brien, responded. I acknowledge that significant investment is being made in the fire service in terms of infrastructure, new fire stations, fire tenders and all goes with that. In my constituency, a new fire station has opened in Tuam and it is a state-of-the-art facility. A contract for the construction of a new fire station in Athenry will be signed shortly and we are about to go through a Part 8 process for a new fire station in Loughrea. These are three centres in the Galway East constituency, which badly needs these fire stations in order that we have proper facilities in which firefighters can serve the people in they way they should. It is a credit that investment is being made because we know how important the service is. All three stations have retained firefighters.

Despite this infrastructural investment, we have a concern. Speaking to the retained firemen who were outside the gates today, the biggest issue is the need to bring their infrastructure into the 21st century. They need now to viewed as people who are delivering a vital service in our society. They have expressed a view that they are being frustrated in attempts to talk about the core issue, namely, remuneration and recognition for the work they perform on a daily basis. A young person will not be attracted into fire service because the remuneration is not good enough. Retained firefighters receive a baseline retainment fee and a fixed amount per call-out. That type of payment does not augur well when they go to a mortgage broker to try to get a mortgage.

I know many people who go into the fire service. They have part-time or full-time jobs. Traditionally, local shopkeepers and publicans joined the service but that is no longer the case in the modern world. We have to make the service fit for purpose for those who deliver it, use a bit of common sense and show respect to these people.

We could get much more from the fire service if we put in the effort. Firefighters do a lot a hell of a lot more than fight fires. They could get train in other aspects of healthcare for when they are needed in an emergency. The retained fire service proved its worth beyond a shadow of a doubt in what it did in Creeslough and throughout the Covid pandemic.

Very quietly, they were there to provide back-up. They were a source of inspiration to many of us when we did not know what to do.

There is a countermotion from the Government, which I think is wrong. We should all be as one on this matter. This is not something out of which we should be making a political point. The people who were outside the gates today did not want to be here. They were not sure what to do or say but when one got talking to them as individuals, one realised they were there because they believe they are being ignored. The only way we can disprove that is for a proper and fast engagement to talk about the issues that are affecting them. The number of people entering the service has been low. Some 60% of the existing retained firefighters have said they are going to leave the service. Are we going to wait until they are gone before we put our hands into the air and ask why we did not do something about it? We have an opportunity to do a lot. Rather than just sitting down and talking to those firefighters, we must deal with the nub of the problem. We must invest in the people themselves to ensure that at the end of the day, the retained firefighting service in this country is fit for purpose and fit to serve us all.

Mattie McGrath (Tipperary, Independent)
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Respect is the most important thing. We talk about it in this House. Everywhere we go, we need to respect our colleagues and other people. Will we show respect to the firemen and firewomen in the Gallery and in every town and village in Tipperary and the rest of the country? They wait for a call to go out and put themselves in the line of danger to look after us. We are operating on a model that has been in place since the 1950s. Imagine that. The Government and successive Governments have let down these firefighters.

A recent survey of retained firefighters indicated that 60% of the members of the service are intending to retire or leave in the next five years. That is an appalling vista. Gardaí are scarce on the ground now. On Sunday night, there was a fatality in Carrick-on-Suir and a fireman had to block the roads. That happens on a regular basis. On many occasions, the ambulance service is so depleted that firemen and firewomen have to sit with patients who, in many cases, are seriously injured. They must stay with such patients for hours while waiting for an ambulance because of the folly of having ambulances crisscrossing the country. The Government has damaged the ambulance service. It all falls back on volunteers and voluntary retained servicemen whom I salute from the bottom of my heart for the work they do and how they put themselves in danger.

In Tipperary town, we have been short of firefighters for the past three or four years. The mandarins know about that. When there is a call in Tipperary town, a unit must be mobilised from Cashel or Cahir. That is a scandalous situation. Where is the back-up for those brave men and women if they need rescuing? We saw what happened in Creeslough in County Donegal. It can happen anywhere at the flick of a match.

I spoke to a man named Mark this evening. He had to leave the service. He loved his job in the retained fire service but he was unable to get accommodation. These firefighters must reside within five minutes of their stations and they cannot get accommodation. That excludes a cohort of volunteers from rural Ireland who cannot join the service because it requires them to be on call and they do not live close enough to get there on time.

It is time for us to cop on. I have seen the Government accepting motions willy-nilly in the past 12 or 15 months. It now has the audacity to oppose this motion. Shame on the Government and on the Minister of State, Deputy Peter Burke. The Minister, Deputy Darragh O'Brien, would not even wait for us to have our say. I salute the brave men and women of the retained fire service. We must look after and have respect for them.

Michael Healy-Rae (Kerry, Independent)
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I welcome the people from the fire service who are in the Gallery and were earlier outside the gates of the Dáil. Many of them had to go home because they are on call tonight in their respective counties. I welcome the people who came from County Kerry and the rest of the country. They are here not because they want to be here but because they have to be here. They must make the Minister of State and the Government listen.

When Government leaders and Ministers go on the television after tragedies, the first thing they do is to thank the emergency services. It is the same situation as applied in respect of the nurses when the Government told people around the country to stand up and start clapping for them. That was among the most insulting, degrading things ever done to any sector of society. The same thing has happened to the people who are here tonight. They did not come here to hear us praising them. They did no such thing. They came to seek a thing called fair play and fair pay. It is the same situation as applied in respect of the nurses. Never mind clapping for them; pay them instead. It is the same for the firemen and the retained fire service. Give them proper money to allow them to live the same as everybody else and to have a mortgage the same as everybody else. They should be allowed the same opportunity to send their children to school as everybody else in every other walk of life. Why should they be treated as second-class citizens?

In rural areas, it is a fact that when an ambulance is called out, the local fire service should also be called out. In many instances, the fire service could arrive to a scene quicker than an ambulance because the Government has made a right dog's dinner out of the ambulance service by centralising it to a disused fire station here in Dublin instead of keeping it in the local areas as was the case and where people had knowledge of the local area and its geography. The Government made a mess of that and it will do the same with the fire service if it is allowed to get away with it. We will not allow the Government to get away with it.

I omitted at the start of my contribution to acknowledge the good work done by Sinn Féin. I thank its members for bringing forward this motion.

I pay tribute to the fire service in Kerry, in particular to people such as Mr. Teddy McCarthy, the late Teddy "Chub" O'Connor, who walked the highways with us and who served his time as a chief in the Killorglin fire station. I pay tribute to all the other fire people in County Kerry.

Danny Healy-Rae (Kerry, Independent)
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I too am glad of the opportunity to speak. I thank Sinn Féin for affording us the opportunity. I also thank all the firemen in the Gallery. I thank those who spoke to me outside the gates, some of whom were from Kerry. They had to go back because they are on duty tonight and have no way out of it.

Another Kerry Deputy suggested that all the Kerry Deputies should support the firefighters. I can say to that Deputy that I have always supported the firefighters. I do not have to be told by him or anyone else to support the firefighters. I recognise the great work they do on the ground when they are called out. Teddy McCarthy, who was already mentioned, is from Sneem and his name comes to mind in this discussion. He acts as an ambulance in many instances because he arrives on the scene hours before an ambulance comes to that rural place. It must be recognised that these men have oxygen and all the things they need to help, including defibrillators and whatever else, and to ensure a person is kept alive. They can reduce a person's pain. They do so much more.

It has been pointed out to me that a firemen cannot be depended on to mind the children while his wife goes shopping because he could be gone when she comes back from the shop. Perhaps such a man would have to take the children with him to the fire station and ring someone to have the children collected. What kind of a life is that? Some of them are only being paid €175 to be retained 24-7. Imagine that. They are only paid €175 to be on call 24 hours a day, seven days a week. They cannot go or live more than five minutes away from the fire station. It is the same as being tied to the leg of the bed. They cannot go anywhere or do anything. It is a job that ties people down. I say to the Minister of State that the Government will have to recognise the calls and claims of these people for proper pay.

Seán Ó Fearghaíl (Kildare South, Ceann Comhairle)
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I call Deputy O'Donoghue, who I hope is not tied to the leg of a bed.

Richard O'Donoghue (Limerick County, Independent)
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I am not.

Seán Ó Fearghaíl (Kildare South, Ceann Comhairle)
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Good.

Richard O'Donoghue (Limerick County, Independent)
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I ask the Minister of State to look at the people in the Gallery. What is a retained fireman or firewoman? A retained firefighter is somebody who lives in the county and does not have set hours.

Someone who rings those firefighters at 2 a.m. or 3 a.m. looking for help is not only ringing the firefighter, but is also ringing their wife or husband and their children because they take their caller home with them. They put it on the locker beside the bed. At 3 a.m., 4 a.m. or 5 a.m. when that alarm goes off, children are woken and their wife or husband is woken. That is who people call because they are retained firefighters. They do not have set hours and do not have a set roster.

We are coming up to Christmas. Because the fire service is under-resourced and does not have enough staff, come Christmas Day those firefighters could be sitting down to Christmas dinner or watching their children opening their presents and they need to jump up, change their clothes, run out, get to the fire station, change their clothes again and within ten minutes go out to protect us or save us from harm.

The Government has tabled a countermotion when it should accept the motion. If it wants to put in amendments, it can do so, but it should have left the motion that is there and stop delaying it. Let us look after our fire service and the people in the county.

I did a job in 2018 in Kilmallock and had a firefighter working with me. On many Fridays we used to go for breakfast as a treat. Many a time that firefighter had to jump up from the breakfast table and leave his breakfast behind him. In the Gallery this evening we have not only current firefighters but also retired firefighters who are still fighting for the rights of the firefighting personnel here. The Minister should look after our retained fire service. They are from the county. They do not have set hours. They want our help because we look for their help when we are in trouble. It is time for us to help them.

Marian Harkin (Sligo-Leitrim, Independent)
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I thank Sinn Féin for tabling the motion which allows us the opportunity to ask the Minister of State and the Minister, Deputy Darragh O'Brien, who was here before him, to urgently address many of the core concerns of retained firefighters. Retained firefighters need a fixed adequate income. The current retainer varies from about €9,000 per annum going up to a maximum of about €11,000. While there are opportunities to earn more on foot of callouts and training, the total salary is completely inadequate. Nobody could live on it and crucially nobody could get a mortgage on it.

The other major issue is that they need structured time off. They cannot have a 168-hour contract every week which is the situation for many firefighters week in and week out. These kinds of working conditions are unsafe and completely contrary to any kind of balance between life and work. The Government countermotion states that "Retained Firefighters are highly committed front-line responders providing an exceptional service within their communities". I could not have put that better myself, but where is the financial recognition for these highly committed front-line responders? Where is the work-life balance for those who provide exceptional service within their community? I accept that the Government has commissioned a review and the Minister has said implementing the recommendations of the review should commence as soon as possible at national and local level. However, I want to hear that implementing these recommendations will commence and I want to hear a timeline.

Retaining firefighters is becoming increasingly difficult. Over the last two to three years, County Leitrim has lost ten out of 48 firefighters and there has been enormous difficulty in replacing them. It took three rounds of recruitment to find just three replacements. It is the same story in Sligo and until a significantly improved basic wage and structured time off is put in place it will be increasingly difficult to keep experienced firefighters and attract new ones.

There is a real need to provide a community-first responder service where ambulances cannot respond within the required time. Sligo is the only fire service outside Dublin that is training firefighters to PHECC standards but the HSE must engage with and help to resource the fire service to provide this invaluable safety net.

Seán Ó Fearghaíl (Kildare South, Ceann Comhairle)
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I call Deputy Wynne.

Violet-Anne Wynne (Clare, Sinn Fein)
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Go raibh maith agat, a Ceann Comhairle; it is good to see you back.

Seán Ó Fearghaíl (Kildare South, Ceann Comhairle)
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I thank you.

Violet-Anne Wynne (Clare, Sinn Fein)
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I spoke to a representative from SIPTU today on this issue and they painted a picture of the seriousness of the situation which is beyond bleak - the word "dangerous" would be more apt. Firefighters are heroes and national treasures. That is especially apparent in rural communities such as in my constituency of Clare. They are often the first responders and play a vital role in keeping our people safe. In recent years the job has not been attractive enough. We know that 60% are planning to leave and I would say that most are staying due to the loyalty they have to the service and to each other. They have been waiting for recommendations from the national review to be published for progress and for meaningful engagement. It is shocking that this has not been done. They have so much uncertainty with their pay that they cannot get a mortgage. That is mind blowing. The Minister should recognise and hear their difficulties and, more importantly, react and respond appropriately. I ask him to give definitive timelines on the national review recommendations. I ask him to commit that there will be no more waiting.

Michael McNamara (Clare, Independent)
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To add to what my constituency colleague has said, in addition to their loyalty to their group, there is a tremendous sense of loyalty to their local community and the community has a sense of loyalty to the fire service. Not many people in Clare even realise that there is only one full-time fire officer in County Clare and everybody else is part time, with the vast majority of them retained firefighters. There is an increasing professionalisation and it is increasingly difficult to get a mortgage. What worked very well up to recently is no longer working.

I could express my disappointment at the Government's countermotion but more importantly I ask the Minister of State and his ministerial colleague to engage with the issue. Regardless of what the motion and the countermotion are, they should engage with this issue. Could the State afford to provide the level of fire cover that we have now if everybody was to be paid on a full-time basis? I think the answer is clearly "No". The nearest full-time fire service to County Clare is in Limerick city. I do not think the State could shoulder the enormous cost of the expansion in the service that would be required to cover all of County Clare. However, the status quois equally unaffordable because people are not joining the fire service to the extent that this is becoming dangerous. Either way, the status quoit is not sustainable nor is a full-time fire service.

I ask the Minister of State to engage with the management of fire services, rural fire services, retained fire services across the country and also their representatives in the trade union movement. The matter needs to be resolved. There was previously an issue. The former Minister, Joan Burton, was regularly criticised by Sinn Féin and perhaps by the Minister of State, but she did engage with the issue and she found a solution to the issue when there was a problem with retained firefighters and whether they qualified for social welfare benefit or assistance. That was ironed out and I believe the problems that exist now can be ironed out with the political will. The Government has the numbers to win the vote regardless. I ask the Government to engage with firefighters to bring about a solution.

Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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I support the motion. I am surprised that the Government has tabled a countermotion. The Minister of State must acknowledge that when people are in trouble with a house going on fire, a car crash, a fire on a ship, in a bog, in a forest or whatever, the first thing we do is dial 999 and we expect these people at the drop of a hat within two minutes to get the text and they have to be gone. They might have to leave jobs they are working on. I was talking to guys from Nenagh and I was talking to Padraig Quinn from Tuam. They say that they basically always need to be on standby.

The day has come and I see it in my own side of it. In agriculture a long time ago someone who had a new tractor or a fancy looking yoke would have a queue down the road trying to jump up on it.

Today, you nearly have to put your arms around some of those youngsters. It is a different Ireland. People want time off and they want to go places without having to be on call all the time. They want to know when they are off and when they are on. The problem is with the numbers. This is in rural Ireland. We must remember that in the bigger cities, they are full time, so they are okay, but this is in rural Ireland. It is another issue that is hitting us in rural Ireland. I refer the likes of Mountbellew, Roscommon, Elphin, Strokestown, Ballaghaderreen and Ballyhaunis. They could have to get two fire brigades because one may not be big enough to handle something.

There is another problem as well. Many people in the fire service should have an option. They could be fit and healthy but they have to retire at a certain age. Even though they have a full MOT done and they could be perfect, they are not allowed to stay on. That is one issue that should be looked at.

This is reasonable. I was speaking with the firefighters today and they are reasonable about it. They want an all-party working group to be put together to resolve these issues. Some night we or somebody in our constituencies will need them. We will dial that number and we will expect them to come straight away. Do we want to leave ourselves open? It is being flagged at the moment that there is a problem, and we know that what is coming up is serious. Do we, as politicians, want to leave ourselves exposed to a situation where they will not be able to fill the vacancies and there will not be enough cover on some night, in some place or for some person? I am thinking especially of our elderly people in the case of a house going on fire. God forbid that they would be exposed and there would be a loss of a life, because we did not put the group together, did not work with it and did not resolve the issues to make it safer to live in rural Ireland. This is what it is about.

I also ask the Minister of State that over the coming months, when there is a new county manager in Roscommon, that we look at Castlerea fire station, which has been closed. It is a fair-sized town and we have even seen problems there since the fire service went. I hope that can be addressed.

Peter Burke (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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I would like to welcome all the men and women from our retained firefighters who are here this evening. I thank them for taking time to attend. I also acknowledge those who cannot be here as it is important that we do that. I want to acknowledge and be clear that this is a genuine case that has been put before this House this evening, as indeed is what has been articulated over the past a number of years. I appreciate the work that is going into it. I would also like to sympathise with and give my condolences to the families in, and to the community of, Creeslough, which has experienced so much loss. I want to put on the record of the House my thanks to all those who were involved in the rescue efforts.

A number of Deputies referenced why the Government is not agreeing to the motion before the House tonight. The text of the motion and the way it was drafted contains three paragraphs condemning the leadership of the Minister for Housing, Local Government and Heritage, Deputy Darragh O’Brien. Deputies will appreciate that there is no way that the Government could vote for a motion that condemns its own Minister, who is clearly passionate about our firefighters and has set in train process to try to resolve the issues. Sometimes motions are tabled in this House and Deputies stand up and ask why the Government will not accept them, but all reasonable people would know that one will not vote for a motion that condemns one’s own leadership, when we have put forward a substantive countermotion on how we are responding. I say genuinely that is not against the firefighters but the text of the motion. As I said, no one disagrees with the retained firefighters, or with the invaluable service and essential work they do in our communities. I meet with them on a weekly basis and I have met many from my own constituency in relation to this issue. There is no doubt that they save so many lives, prevent damage to property, protect critical infrastructure and safeguard the environment. We are indebted to them for their work and their sacrifice, because they often face so much danger and significant risk.

I would like to clarify the role of the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage. Its role is supporting fire authorities by setting general policy and national standards, providing central training programmes, issuing guidance on operational and other related matters and providing capital funding support for equipment and priority infrastructure projects. While the Minister, Deputy Darragh O’Brien, has responsibility for fire services, he has no operational role in respect of our fire services. On the other hand, the local authority fire service in Ireland is staffed by more than 3,000 professional, competent and highly committed personnel, full-time and retained fire services.

Local authorities, as the funders and employers of the fire service personnel, have demonstrated their commitment to this service. It is important to note that the number of front-line fire service staff have been maintained at a high level even at a time when staffing numbers were out of necessity reduced in other areas of the local authorities. The fire service is operated at a local authority level by 27 individual fire authorities. There are 218 fire stations throughout the country with 3,245 serving fire service personnel, of whom 2,065 are retained on a 24-hour basis.

The work of our fire services has changed considerably over the past two decades and this is reflected in the changes in incident types that have been attended by fire services. In the period, the proportion of fires attended has decreased from a level of 62% of incidents in 2000 to 45% in 2021. By the same token, special service incidents attended has increased rapidly from 19% in 2000 to 35% in 2021. The changing profile has resulted in ongoing reviews and fire service risk assessments, response capability, equipment and training requirements. Retained fire stations were mobilised on an average of 24,750 times annually over the period from 2016 to 2020 to incidents including fires, road traffic collisions, special rescue and general services. The range of incident activity varies considerably across the services from stations with low numbers of callouts to busy retained stations.

A tangible and welcome result of the efforts of fire services is a downward trend in incidents of fire in Ireland with the fire fatality rate per million of population, using a three-year average, currently at 4.3 deaths per million of population. While as we all very well and acutely know, each death is one too many, this figure is a third of what it was 20 years ago when it stood at 12.9 deaths per million of population. The level of fatalities from fires in Ireland is a low rate compared with other countries. I want to again acknowledge the great work that our fire services have in making that a reality.

As my colleague, the Minister for Housing, Local Government and Heritage, Deputy Darragh O’Brien, has already stated, he has listened to concerns being raised in relation to our retained fire service in Ireland. He is acting on this and a review in collaboration with the retained firefighter, the fire services national oversight and implementation group, FSNOIG, the Local Government Management Agency, LGMA and the Department is soon to be completed and presented to the management board of the National Directorate for Fire and Emergency Management.

It is a priority for both the Minister and Department to begin this implementation process in order to respond to the genuine issues which have been raised here tonight. This will require a sequence of steps and developments to improve firefighter work-life balance and to ensure that the retained service is seen as a place of opportunity for a career for both male and female firefighters. There is a significant urgency in moving forward with the implementation of the review’s recommendations, however, it should be noted that the capacity of resilience of fire service has been shown to be robust through the external validation process in 2016 and the capacity review in 2020.

In December 2021, the Omicron variant of Covid-19 caused a steep increase in infection rates right across the country. In anticipation of the impact on the delivery of fire services, the National Directorate for Fire and Emergency Management issued a circular advising immediate protective actions to be taken by all fire services to prevent the spread of Covid-19 in the fire service. Simultaneously, the National Directorate for Fire and Emergency Management worked with local authorities to underpin resilient measures recommended in the capacity review report. Fire services demonstrated strong business continuity measures during the peak of the Omicron wave of infection with no loss of service. The recruitment and retention issues are serious and are now being taken very seriously by the Minister, Deputy Darragh O'Brien, and his officials.

The Minister also mentioned that while the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage is not the employer, it supports all fire services in Ireland through its fire services capital programme. The latest programme has an allocation of €61 million to support the building of 12 fire stations already under way, six new stations and refurbishment works planned for another nine stations. The invaluable financial support is continuing with the fleet programme. An allocation of €27.7 million has been made with the first tranche providing 35 appliances at an approximate cost of €16 million.

The Department continues to work with the Office of Government Procurement and will shortly have secured extension of a fire appliance scheme with a further budget of €17 million indicated. A further €5 million has been allocated to support the procurement of other fire and emergency rescue equipment and €2 million allocated to further progress the mobilisation and communications project.

There is also a focus on training for all fire personnel, with the NDFEM providing the annual training programme, which offers courses for local authority fire service officers and supports the ability of fire authorities to deliver efficient and effective fire and rescue services. The quality of training delivered by the NDFEM has been beneficial to fire authorities in assisting their fire officers to develop and maintain consistency in standards, but also to pass through the instruction to firefighters at an official level. The national-level training is complementary to ongoing county station training and drill nights, which provide ongoing continuous training to fire crews in all areas of their work.

The Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage and my colleague, the Minister, Deputy Darragh O'Brien, remain committed to investing in all of our fire services, including retained ones, and we will work with all parties to achieve this. The Minister is confident that the report will be completed and published in December. He will commence work promptly on responding to all of the issues.

I acknowledge the genuine case that has been presented by the firefighters tonight. The Government appreciates their work and we will respond in a timely manner once this report is published. I thank the firefighters for their attendance.

Seán Ó Fearghaíl (Kildare South, Ceann Comhairle)
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I understand that Deputy O'Reilly is sharing time with Deputies Tully and Brady.

Louise O'Reilly (Dublin Fingal, Sinn Fein)
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I thank my colleague, Deputy Brady, for all of his work. I welcome the men and women of the retained fire service who are here with us and the many more who are watching. Every Deputy who has spoken has recognised the same point, that is, that there are many people who cannot be here by virtue of the fact that they are on call. They have to be close to their home places so that they can protect their communities.

The Minister of State sought to give us a little lecture on what he did and did not think was reasonable, but a reasonable Government would wake up to the statistic that 60% of retained firefighters were considering resigning or retiring in the next two years. They are not unreasonable people. In fact, they are some of the most flexible and reasonable people providing services in the State. A reasonable Government would take on board that statistic. A reasonable Government would be concerned. A reasonable Government would listen. A reasonable Government would be alert to the terms and conditions and the fact that these men and women were, in many instances, providing services on a shoestring. It is no wonder that we struggle to get people into the fire service and to retain them there, given that they are struggling to get simple things like a mortgage because of the way their wages are structured.

When the Minister was present, he told us that the firefighters kept their own communities safe. Last night, the fire services from my town of Skerries were in Donabate fighting a fire alongside crews from Kilbarrack and elsewhere in Dublin. Fire services come together. A fire service is not just a small service for a small community. The communities have expanded.

Firefighters do a professional job. They provide a first class service, yet all they are seeking is respect and decent terms and conditions. They cannot take applause or a pat on the back down to the supermarket and try to use it to pay for their groceries. They are looking for respect, decency and decent wages.

Pauline Tully (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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I welcome the motion and commend my colleague, Deputy Brady, on the work he has undertaken in tabling it.

Retained firefighters are first responders and are often first on the scene of awful tragedies that we can only imagine. It is a dangerous job with enormous pressure, and firefighters face real risks to their personal safety. Firefighters go into burning buildings to make sure that the rest of us are out of them. They go to cars and cut people out of them even though the cars might explode or burst into flames at any moment. All of this takes an emotional toll on the firefighters and their families.

Conditions within the job have led to a recruitment and retention crisis. Firefighters are on call 24-7 and must be in the vicinity of the fire station at all times, yet the money they receive is not reflective of that commitment. The retained fire services cannot recruit sufficient new members nor retain experienced personnel. This has made an already dangerous and pressurised job even more so, as fire stations are being forced to operate with low crew numbers. In some cases, this has resulted in fire authorities deciding to close stations temporarily.

There are issues with the failure of management to take seriously firefighters' concerns about the provision of proper training, consultation and the supervision of the use of new technologies. That is in breach of the Safety, Health and Welfare at Work Act 2005. The retained fire service "is not fit for purpose." These are not my words, but the words of Mr. Dave Carroll, the former head of the Chief Fire Officers Association. He made these remarks in 2018, and matters have grown even worse since then. The cost-of-living crisis has exacerbated the issue and many retained firefighters have been forced to take up full-time employment. The job is not sufficiently paid to consider it full-time employment, so most have to take up other work. However, if they do so they are taxed to the hilt. One firefighter told me that he had received €5,000 for a six-month period of his retainer and call-outs. That was €5,000 in theory. What he actually got into his hand after tax was €1,700. That would not encourage anyone to join and risk his or her life.

I urge Deputies to back this motion, which calls for the establishment of a cross-party Oireachtas joint committee. This issue must be resolved urgently for the safety of the crews and members of the public.

John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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Members of the retained service and their family members came to Dublin today and marched on the Dáil. Some have sat outside for the duration of this debate. They came here out of frustration looking for hope and respect, but all they got from the Government benches were words. They received no hope from the Government benches and little respect. Instead, they got a classic case of kicking the can down the road. That is what has been done with the Government's amendment. This motion was penned by the members of the retained service themselves because they feel their voices have not been listened to by anyone in government. The Government's amendment nullifies and totally dismisses everything they have said. It essentially says that the Government is great and that everything will be done to resolve the issue, but it contains no definitive timelines. I have heard it said repeatedly that the Minister will bring forward the review and the recommendations in December, but no date whatsoever has been given. Bear in mind that the Minister has been sitting on the review and recommendations since February or March. That in itself gives a clear indication of how seriously the Government is dealing with the crisis in the retained service.

There was not one mention by the Minister of State or his colleague of the balloting for industrial action. Members of the retained fire service felt that they had no other option, given that the processes they had engaged in up to that point had not produced meaningful solutions to the crisis. They served notice on the chief executives of all the local authorities a number of weeks ago. The balloting is taking place as we speak. In some areas, 97% of retained firefighters are saying that they have no other option and that, although they do not want to go down this route, they have to because their voices are not being heard. As a last resort, they are prepared to take industrial or full strike action. They have no faith in the Government to follow through and implement the report.

The motion could complement the process, which was not initiated recently. Firefighters were asked for their input into the review last year. Nine hundred of them took part. However, all it was was words. No action has come from it. What the firefighters are asking for is the creation of a cross-party Oireachtas committee to get under the bonnet of the retained service, examine all of the issues over a four-month period and make recommendations.

That could and should complement whatever review is being undertaken. More importantly, it will give a level of accountability and responsibility to the Government to implement and follow through on whatever comes out of that. I have my own views, and the firefighters have their own views, around the working time directive, which needs to be fully implemented. That would go a long way to addressing all of the concerns we have heard from right across the Chamber here this evening. Unfortunately, all we have got from the Government is words.

I will refer to one line in the countermotion. Members of the service were sitting up in the Gallery and I do not know if the Minister of State, Deputy Peter Burke, noticed, but the vast majority of them actually got up and walked out after the Minister of State spoke. Their morale was on the ground as they came in here, and that just sunk it even further. The countermotion states:

... while the recruitment and retention issues are serious, it is important nevertheless to place these issues in the context of a service that has repeatedly been shown to be operationally ready and resilient ...

It then goes on to refer to Covid. To my mind, the Minister is conscious of the serious challenges but is happy because he knows the guys are going to get up, get out and respond as they always do despite the major challenges and despite the shortage of personnel on the ground. I again appeal to the Minister of State to pull the amendment, to support the motion, and to show full support for the retained firefighters and the communities in which they serve. I ask the Minister of State to pull the amendment and support the motion. Let us get this committee going and start putting in place a service that is fit for purpose.

Seán Ó Fearghaíl (Kildare South, Ceann Comhairle)
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That completes our consideration of the motion regarding retained firefighters. We must first consider the amendment in the name of the Minister.

Seán Ó Fearghaíl (Kildare South, Ceann Comhairle)
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In accordance with Standing Order 80(2), the division is deferred until the weekly division time tomorrow evening. I thank all Members for their participation.