Richard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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1. To ask the Taoiseach if he will provide a timeline for future citizens’ assemblies. [50103/22]

Paul Murphy (Dublin South West, RISE)
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2. To ask the Taoiseach if he will provide a timeline for future citizens’ assemblies. [50106/22]

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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I propose to take Questions Nos. 1 and 2 together.

The programme for Government commits to establishing four citizens' assemblies, on the topics of biodiversity loss, the type of directly elected mayor and local government structures best suited for Dublin, drug use and the future of education. The Citizens' Assembly on Biodiversity Loss and the Dublin Citizens' Assembly on local government were formally established in February 2022, began their meetings in April and are on schedule to complete their work and submit their reports by the end of this year, in line with the timelines set out by the Oireachtas. The Government is committed to establishing the next citizens' assemblies, on drug use and the future of education, at the earliest opportunity following the completion of the assemblies currently under way. The timelines and terms of reference for the next assemblies will ultimately be determined by the Oireachtas. It is a matter for the House to agree. It is anticipated that we in the Government will consider the matter early in the new year, following which motions will be put before Dáil and Seanad Éireann for debate, setting out timelines and terms of reference for the new assemblies.

Richard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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I hope the Citizens' Assembly on Biodiversity Loss will look very closely at the manner in which our marine resources and offshore marine areas have been grabbed for so-called "relevant projects" in offshore industrial wind. The developers have chosen the sites, which are often very sensitive sites that arguably or definitely should have been designated as marine protected areas, something that the Government has failed to do. I read this morning that hundreds of records released to Coastal Concern Alliance, a citizens' group, under freedom of information rules raise serious questions about habitat protection in the offshore area. The documents seem to suggest political interference in the designation of special areas of conservation and that areas which should have been designated as sandbanks were removed. For example, in the context of areas of the Codling Bank, the Kish Bank and so on that should have been designated as sandbanks and almost certainly would have gained protection but have now been grabbed as sites by developers, there is a suggestion of interference in the designation and lack of protection of those sites where private companies are planning offshore industrial wind.

Paul Murphy (Dublin South West, RISE)
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New research shows that the world's wildlife populations have declined, on average, by almost 70% in the past 50 years. In Ireland, the butterfly population is down 35% since 2008. We are living through the sixth mass extinction event. The report suggests that land use change remains the driving factor behind the crisis and the loss of biodiversity. In addition, there is overexploitation of natural resources, as well as pollution and climate change. At the root of this is a system of ecocidal capitalism that is concerned only with maximisation of profit and cares nothing for the devastation of the natural environment and the consequences of that for all of humanity. It is good that we have the Citizens' Assembly examining the question of biodiversity loss but the real question is whether the Government is going to take action. I have full confidence that the citizens will demand action, but is the Government going to follow through? For example, will it designate 30% of our seas as marine protected areas? Will it end the model of industrialised agriculture based on monocultures? Will it pay farmers to engage in rewilding and regenerative farming? Will it expand native afforestation?

Ivana Bacik (Dublin Bay South, Labour)
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There was considerable controversy during summer in agreeing sectoral emission targets for the agriculture sector in particular. My colleague Deputy Sherlock called on the Government to convene a citizens' assembly on the future of agriculture and food production in Ireland. Would the Taoiseach and the Government agree with such an approach? It would enable a good conversation to take place on the difficult questions in respect of how to deliver a just transition to farming communities through lowering emissions and protecting livelihoods. I am asking for the view of the Government on that proposal.

On a separate matter, I raised the issue of thalidomide with the Taoiseach two weeks ago, on Wednesday, 5 October, and he said he would respond to the Irish Thalidomide Association on a proposal within two weeks, or that was our understanding. Today marks two weeks since that commitment and the Irish Thalidomide Association has requested that I ask the Taoiseach to confirm that he will engage with it.

Gary Gannon (Dublin Central, Social Democrats)
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I wish to ask the Taoiseach about a possible date for the proposed citizens' assembly on drugs. The issue of drugs has been once again brought to the fore by two matters in particular, the first being the episode of "Prime Time" broadcast last night which discussed the matter in detail and the second being the unfortunate comments yesterday of a Government Deputy which reduced people suffering serious addiction abuse to a single derogatory and hateful term that I will not repeat. We need a new approach to drugs. Some 50 years after heroin first penetrated the north inner city, are we still going to criminalise people for their addictions or can we have a more tolerant and humane approach? If that starts with a citizens' assembly, so be it, but we should do it with urgency.

Bríd Smith (Dublin South Central, People Before Profit Alliance)
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The Citizens' Assembly on Biodiversity Loss heard this weekend that Ireland is not losing its biodiversity; it is haemorrhaging it. An expert told the assembly that we are one of the most nature-depleted countries on the planet. Anyone crossing Ireland will see Sitka spruce plantations and biodiversity deserts everywhere. Basically, hedgerows that should be a refuge for biodiversity have been wiped out. We have learned from the Environmental Protection Agency, EPA, that our rivers and oceans continue to be of poor quality as a direct result of the growth in nitrate use which, in itself, is a direct consequence of the intensive farming and export-driven model into which farmers have been forced. It is time to move beyond platitudes on the biodiversity crisis and accept that Food Vision and other related plans from the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine have left the farming community largely struggling to survive, benefited only a tiny minority involved in intensive farming and export, and left us bare in terms of nature and biodiversity. We cannot separate the agricultural model in this country from the biodiversity crisis and collapse that is being overseen.

When will this change and when will the platitudes on biodiversity end?

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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I thank the Leas-Cheann Comhairle. First, I endorse that call for immediate action on the citizens' assembly on the issue of drugs. The matter is outstanding and is urgent. As Deputy Gannon said, we know from our own constituency and the communities we represent just how critical this is.

I also want to ask the Taoiseach about a citizens' assembly on the issue of Irish reunification. We had the People's Assembly in Belfast, where people were gathered from across society in that city. The support for its citizens' assembly is overwhelming.

Similarly, the Ireland's Future event, which was a huge event in the 3Arena - the Taoiseach's own colleague, Deputy Jim O'Callaghan, addressed that gathering - is equally calling for this. This is a very widespread call for the necessary planning that can be facilitated through a citizens' assembly. When will the Taoiseach move on this matter?

Finally, we are a decade on now since the overwhelming majority at the Convention on the Constitution, as it was then, voted in favour of extending voting rights for presidential elections to Irish citizens living outside of the State, including the North. It has been one whole decade and we are still waiting. This waiting needs to end.

Ruairi Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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I also reiterate that we really need a date for the citizens’ assembly on drugs. We can all accept at this stage that the so-called war on drugs is well and truly lost. We know that we have communities which are completely under the cosh of criminal elements and that we do not have the addiction services that are required to deal with the need that is there. Most of my dealings with An Garda Síochána are generally related to drug debt intimidation at this point in time where families are under severe pressure. We know that this issue needs to be health-led, there is a policing element and there is an education element.

We know that we also need community and family supports which are absolutely lacking. We have to deal with the issues right through from multigenerational trauma to poverty but we are not doing any of these. We need to hope that our citizens will have more courage, perhaps, than all of us and will be able to look at these particular issues, but it is already too late. The best we can do is to set a timeline where we can actually get underway with this. We may have lost some people but we need to ensure that we save more of our citizens from the absolute disaster that the drug trade has introduced across Ireland and the world. We need a solution on an Irish, an all-island, on a European basis and even beyond.

Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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On the matter of the Citizens’ Assembly on Biodiversity Loss, the lack of broadleaf trees was very much raised. In my constituency, very close to my home, we have Cratloe Wood, a 600 acre plantation which was once western Europe’s largest oak wood. The rafters above the chamber in which Queen Elizabeth II lay in state were built from Cratloe oak beams. The Royal Palace Amsterdam and HMS Victory were all built from Cratloe oak and, perhaps, even this building. Nowadays, if one goes to Cratloe Wood, it is Sitka spruce everywhere and there is only a small cohort of native oak trees. I have been leading an initiative locally.

There are a few drops of rain falling from the sky light, a Leas-Cheann Comhairle, with some lightning too. Perhaps we need to get the roof fixed but we could fix it with Cratloe oak because the water is dropping here now.

This would be a great initiative as we are trying to lead something locally, but there needs to be Government buy-in. Perhaps the Government might pick some project forests like Cratloe Wood to reintegrate native trees. They are being propagated once more with the nurseries in Wicklow taking the acorns from Cratloe oaks. We could do with some Cratloe oak here as there are even more drops falling, as I speak. We may have to abandon the Chamber soon.

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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I cannot sing but I am tempted to sing “Raindrops Keep Fallin' on My Head”.

Bríd Smith (Dublin South Central, People Before Profit Alliance)
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You’re a gas man.

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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The last point is very valid and I say to the Deputy that if he wants to come back to us with his local community group on Cratloe Wood, we are open to initiatives from the community up on biodiversity and in respect of native woodlands in particular. The Government would be very interested in getting behind that idea and developing a project around that. There are many projects across the country, as Deputies will know, where communities are taking the initiative in respect of biodiversity and in restoring flora and fauna and it is something of which I am very strongly supportive.

Deputy Boyd Barrett began the session by raising the issue of marine resources. This is the first Government which has actually provided for a marine spatial plan and it has also provided legislation in respect of the regulatory framework governing the use of our seas. We need more nature reserves. I am not clear what the Deputy is referring to in regard to political interference on designation. I certainly have not seen that. Are his comments made in regard to the present Government as I certainly do not think that that is possible?

Richard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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I will send the Taoiseach the material.

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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Please do. The main point is that we must develop offshore wind, which is clear. We want to reduce and eliminate our dependence on fossil fuels. The most effective way to do that is both onshore and offshore wind, which we are both agreed upon. That has to be done in a regulated and planned way with inputs from all stakeholders, not least those representing our biodiversity. I have already spoken to the environmental pillar on the social dialogue and it made some very good, sensible suggestions as to how its inputs could be fed in at the very beginning on such matters. We will need wind farms, calls will have to be made in respect of decisions and these will be hard decisions.

Land use is key and a major review is underway in respect of land use in the country which will inform future practice in respect of the point made by Deputy Paul Murphy. Again, we have an agricultural model here and no one is forcing anybody into the model that we have. Food security is important.

Paul Murphy (Dublin South West, RISE)
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CAP is.

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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Excuse me?

Paul Murphy (Dublin South West, RISE)
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The Common Agricultural Policy, CAP, is. We incentivise farmers to engage in industrialised farming because of the whole nature of the subsidy system.

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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The Deputy used the word “force”. Farmers have been attached to the land for a very long time in this country. We have to engage with all involved on the land, including our farming community, and food security is important. We have to balance all of that. We need a greater variety of production and we are, through the carbon tax revenues, encouraging environmentally friendly farming, multi-species swards, and greater technologies to reduce the impacts on the environment. Not least this year, there has been a pronounced reduction in fertiliser use, brought on by the war on Ukraine, but it is nonetheless having some beneficial impacts in respect of the environment.

Deputy Bríd Smith talked about a nature-depleted planet which I do not disagree with. We have to focus more strongly on the quality of our rivers, the marine, our estuaries and ocean waters. Again, Food Vision 2030 is endeavouring to balance food production with-----

Bríd Smith (Dublin South Central, People Before Profit Alliance)
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It is not balanced.

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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----- the need for environmental sustainability. That is the objective and there was widespread consultation. Not everybody agreed with the outcome-----

Bríd Smith (Dublin South Central, People Before Profit Alliance)
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It is clearly failing so it cannot be balanced if it is failing.

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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-----and it was only announced about a year ago and has some distance to go yet in respect of its objectives.

On the citizens’ assemblies, to respond to the point made by Deputy McDonald, I think the shared island initiative in respect of the dialogue series that is there is a far more effective way of building reconciliation and mutual trust through working with people on the ground and engaging in dialogue across-the-board on issues such as climate. A climate and biodiversity network has been created on the island together with many research networks. An all-island women’s forum has been selected. I attended a group on Monday with Community Relations in Schools, CRIS, with communities involved in education at the interface areas in Belfast from preschool to primary school and secondary school. That is the type of understanding and dialogue which we need to build up on the island and that is the approach I favour in that respect.

The next two citizens’ assemblies will be on drugs. Deputy Gannon highlighted that. That is where we intend to go.

Deputy Bacik, to whom I apologise, also referred to the need for a citizens’ assembly on agriculture and food production. I would not disagree with that entirely but drugs and education are the next two themes to which we have committed. They got the largest cross-party consensus in terms of a need for an assembly on drugs and on education. The date for the assembly, to answer Deputy Ó Murchú, should be early in the New Year.

Ivana Bacik (Dublin Bay South, Labour)
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I asked about the thalidomide issue.

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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We have not proposals worked up on that yet, but as soon as we have we will come back to the Irish Thalidomide Association as quickly as I can.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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We are over time as there were many contributions. There will be a little less time for the next two groupings.