Dáil debates

Thursday, 13 October 2022

Work Life Balance and Miscellaneous Provisions Bill 2022: Second Stage (Resumed)

 

Question again proposed: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."

1:10 pm

Photo of Gary GannonGary Gannon (Dublin Central, Social Democrats)
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I will pick up where Deputy Cairns left off on the previous occasion.

The Bill has defects in respect of the sharing of personal information, especially in the requirement to share third-party information with an employer to seek medical care leave or flexible working arrangements for care purposes. This issue also arose in recent newspaper accounts of IBEC’s submission on domestic violence leave. The Joint Committee on Children, Disability, Equality, Integration and Youth discussed domestic violence leave in reference to Deputy O'Reilly's legislation. It was agreed that given the serious and intimate nature of domestic violence, seeking evidence of such access to leave would be highly inappropriate and potentially traumatising. There was also consensus that no one would fraudulently claim such leave.

Unfortunately, IBEC decided to go down the road of suggesting victims of gender-based violence would need proof "to avoid any potential abuse of domestic violence leave". Not only this, it suggested that the Department conduct economic impact analysis to find out “whether the cost to employers will exceed any benefit”. That is really disappointing commentary. It subsequently tried to roll back on this position, but its sentiments and objections are clear and, frankly, disgusting. It claims to want to support victims of domestic violence while, at the same time, opposing their right to apply for leave after they have been attacked, in many cases in their own home. We are long overdue a statutory right to leave for those experiencing gender-based violence or any form of domestic or partner abuse. Despite resistance from bodies such as that, this leave will be created.

Yesterday, the Minister indicated he will introduce a form of domestic violence leave on Committee Stage. While this is most welcome, it is clearly an unhelpful and unprofessional way to produce legislation. The legislation, when first published, should have contained all these elements, but it now appears as though leave in response to domestic and gender-based violence is an afterthought. Moreover, it is now virtually impossible for Opposition or backbench Deputies to make meaningful amendments to that section because we will be operating in a void. The only thing we have to go on is speculation based on the Minister's statements yesterday and a press release. Will it be ten days or five days? Will employers be able to seek evidence of abuse and violence? What would that even look like? Not only is this poor legislation-making, it is poor legislation giving rise to an incredibly serious and prevalent issue.

Survivors and victims of gender-based violence deserve more than off-the-cuff law-making and need more than speculation about their potential entitlements. There are many welcome aspects of this legislation but major issues remain. My colleague, Deputy Cairns, will bring forward amendments on Committee Stage to make it more inclusive in order that it will respond to the needs of vulnerable people.

Photo of Alan FarrellAlan Farrell (Dublin Fingal, Fine Gael)
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The Bill will introduce significant changes to workers’ rights. I commend the Minister and his colleagues on their work in developing it and fulfilling a number of key commitments made during the formation of the Government.

The most significant aspect of the Bill, as I touched on earlier, is the introduction of paid domestic violence leave, the impact of which be overstated. It is a leap forward for our country that will put us at the forefront of this type of legislation, with just one other European country, which the Minister mentioned. Indeed, ours will be one of the few countries in the wider world to have introduced paid domestic violence leave and this is something of which we should all be proud. It shows the compassion that is required when supporting victims of domestic violence.

As with any progressive and new action, we must ensure its implementation will not hinder the good it has set out to achieve. It is vital that an individual’s application for, and the processes involved in, paid domestic violence leave be addressed with the utmost sensitivity and compassion. Therefore, I welcome the decision by the Minister not to require any documentary evidence of domestic violence when a person is seeking paid domestic violence leave. This removes an important barrier to the application process and removes any uncertainty created by IBEC’s recent questionable and tone-deaf comments on the matter.

It is the tragic nature of domestic violence that much of it is done in a way that cannot be documented, through fear, coercion, psychological abuse, financial abuse and myriad other forms of non-physical domestic violence that can, on the surface, constitute invisible forms of abuse. It is important, therefore, that the system put in place following the passage of the Bill into law be kept under review and be flexible to change in order that it may serve the people who will rely on it, and I commend the Minister on his comments regarding the two-year review period. Of course, I appreciate that, from time to time, the best of intentions can still result in issues and I am sure he would intervene prior to that should an issue arise where it can be resolved. I am confident, given the level of thought that has been put into this measure in a number of Departments, that we can get it right.

I believe this aspect of the Bill should be viewed in the wider context of changes happening within legislation on domestic violence outside of the Minister's remit. Indeed, the Minister for Justice has delivered on several significant items of policy and legislation relating to this issue. I am thinking in particular of the publication of the third national strategy on domestic, sexual and gender-based violence, which focuses on prevention, protection and prosecution. The strategy lays the groundwork for progress and sets us on a path to becoming a more aware society. For generations in this country, we closed our eyes to the scourge of domestic violence and closed our hearts to the suffering of people in all walks of life and of all ages. The painful truth is many victims suffered in silence and, at its ugliest, became the victims of stigma and community gossip.

Thankfully, our society has come a long way since that era of silence. Increasingly, people are willing to speak out and when they do, they find a supportive community that will walk this journey with them. However, many remain locked in seemingly hopeless suffering. It is our job as legislators to ensure that every support and resource will be given to victims of domestic violence in order that when they need help, they can access it in a safe and efficient manner. It is also the job of every man, woman and child in Ireland to create a warmer, more inclusive society. We still have a long way to go before we stamp out domestic violence in all its forms from our communities, but it is a task on which we cannot relent. Last year, Women’s Aid reported that just under 27,000 contacts with women had been made, or 73 contacts per day. This underscores the importance of tackling this issue, which is ripping lives apart. I highlight also the important changes to sentencing and laws with regard to non-fatal strangulation and stalking, introduced by the Minister for Justice. These advancements are most welcome and again underscore the need for a cross-Government approach to this matter.

Of course, the Bill contains several other important developments in the rights of workers that will increase the inclusivity of workplaces. Most notably, rights relating to breastfeeding breaks will be increased from six months to two years, an important change that will remove a barrier for many women with infants when they consider how to return to work and feed their child. Extending these rights to two years will expand the ability of mothers to find a work-life balance that works for them and their family and will assist us in improving the rather sad breastfeeding statistics.

Of course, the Bill contains several other important developments which will allow for workers to request time off to care for family members or loved ones with a medical condition. I also welcome the fact that a flexible appeals system will be developed for use in the event of an employer rejecting such a request.

I highlight the aspects of this Bill which relate to working from home. Allowing for flexible working arrangements again reflects and recognises the nuances of an individual’s life and the many pressures we all face, both professionally and personally. As with issues relating to domestic violence, working from home policies should be taken on a cross-departmental basis. At a time of rising costs in everyday life, working from home can help people save on the cost, for example, of travel and fuel. It allows for parents to reduce childcare costs and allows for people to spend more of their free time how they want and not commuting. I also note that the development of digital hubs in towns and villages across Ireland will play a vital role in the successful application of flexible working, including the significant progress being made by National Broadband Ireland in connecting the homes of hundreds of people to high-speed reliable broadband to aid the aims of this Bill and broader strategy.

At its core, I believe this Bill reflects the changing nature of work and recognises the nuances of people’s everyday lives. The Government is often accused and criticised for being slow to react to issues facing people or of implementing one-size-fits-all policies. I believe that this Bill is proactive legislation that will make a real difference to people and one that delicately and sensitively addresses the complexity of people's personal lives.

1:20 pm

Photo of Chris AndrewsChris Andrews (Dublin Bay South, Sinn Fein)
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I will take a moment to extend my congratulations on the fantastic achievement of the Irish women's football team and its manager, Vera Pauw. It has given the whole nation a lift. That team did not qualify for the World Cup by chance. It is the result of hard work, dedication and professionalism. I heard Vera Pauw say they are standing on the shoulders of previous generations of footballers, which is true. Those previous generations include players such as Olivia O'Toole, our record goal scorer, and the squad who five years ago threatened to go on strike to achieve equality. It is important to note that the foundations for the team's victory the night before last was a result of their commitment and determination. It is also a credit to Mr. Jonathan Hill, the CEO of the FAI. Senior management in the FAI also deserves great credit. The new regime in the FAI has in many ways embraced women's football. That is important.

I also congratulate Ballinteer St. John's on winning the senior camogie final last Sunday. That team did not get there by chance either but did so as a result of hard work, commitment and a great management team. I acknowledge that.

Photo of Roderic O'GormanRoderic O'Gorman (Dublin West, Green Party)
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I hope the Deputy will also congratulate me on my Bill.

Photo of Chris AndrewsChris Andrews (Dublin Bay South, Sinn Fein)
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I was just coming to that. I congratulate the Minister on his Bill. I was intending to congratulate him last. Work-life balance is important. In that context, sports facilities are also important. Sport affects our emotional, physical and mental health. We have for decades under-invested in sports and sports facilities. We need to ensure those sports facilities are invested in. The €35 million the Government has allocated for the energy costs clubs will face is important and welcome. However, that payment needs to be rolled out as a matter of urgency. Clubs such as Cambridge FC do not have the space they need to train and improve their players. There is a lack of facilities in neighbourhoods such as Kevin Street. There are no recreational facilities for the public to access in that area. Such facilities are very limited. The technological university property is up for sale and that is something we should be considering in order to ensure a proper publicly accessible recreation centre in the community.

Photo of Catherine ConnollyCatherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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The scope of a Second Stage debate allows Deputies not only to refer to what is in the Bill but to what could relevantly be put into it. The Deputy took a generous interpretation of that stipulation.

Photo of Paul MurphyPaul Murphy (Dublin South West, RISE)
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I welcome the fact the Government is belatedly moving to bring in some improvements in respect of work-life balance for some workers. However, people should be aware that the Government - and this is a consistent feature of this Government's approach - is doing the bare minimum of what it is legally required to do under an EU directive on work-life balance. That is what the Government is doing. It is looking for a clap on the back for doing what it is legally required to do under the EU directive and for which it has decided not to go any further, even though it could, than the minimum required. Unfortunately, the Government does not deserve congratulations or a clap on the back. The only ones who are really applauding are the employers' IBEC represents because the Government is following what IBEC wanted to happen with this Bill. Representatives of IBEC told the relevant Oireachtas committee, "It is vital that the transposition exercise goes no further than necessary in transposing the minimum requirements of the directive." That is why we have the minimal Bill we have. It contains no more than the minimum required by the EU directive. That is why the medical care leave provided for looking after sick children or relatives in the Bill is entirely unpaid and is only for five days per year, regardless of how unwell somebody is. Contrast that with People Before Profit's proposal two and a half years ago for unlimited paid care leave on full wages as part of statutory, employer-paid sick pay. Contrast it too with the arrangements in Germany, where ten days' children's sick pay per parent per year is provided at up to 100% of wages. During the pandemic, that was increased to 20 days. This Bill falls far short of that.

The Bill fails to introduce even a minimum social welfare payment for employees taking medical care leave. As with parental leave currently, medical care leave will be entirely unpaid. Everyone knows that means it will overwhelmingly be taken up by women rather than men. So much for work-life balance. So much for gender equality. It also means it will not be an option for very many low-paid workers who cannot afford to lose any of their income. That includes the majority of lone parents. The Bill, in a miserly, penny-pinching way, discriminates against lone parents by failing to allocate them an additional five days' leave to account for the absent parent. Single parents just get their five days' leave and do not get another five days. It is children who are ultimately discriminated against as a consequence. It is yet another way the State discriminates against the children of lone parents.

The Bill continues the Government's kowtowing to employers throughout the provisions on the so-called right to request flexible working. A fair bit of attention was paid to the right to request remote working proposed by the Minister and Tánaiste, Deputy Varadkar. That was really about the right to refuse remote working. A better name for this provision is the right of employers to refuse flexible working. It is exactly the same situation as the right to request and the right for an employer to refuse. It is even more stacked in favour of the employers than the right to refuse remote working proposed by the Minister's colleague from Fine Gael.

Unlike with remote working, this right is limited to employees with certain caring responsibilities. Of course it should be available to those with caring responsibilities but there is no reason to limit it to them. All workers should have a real right to flexible and remote working arrangements unless there is a good and genuine reason why that cannot be reasonably facilitated. Surely that is precisely at the heart of what work-life balance is supposed to be about.

Under section 6, employers are to "provide a notice in writing informing the employee that the request has been refused and the reasons for the refusal". However, there is no limitation on what those reasons can be and there is no facility for a substantive appeal against a refusal.

The only appeal that can be made is on procedural grounds if the employer does not respond to a request quickly enough. Grounds for an employer to postpone access to flexible working are at least listed but are so broad that, once again, it is carte blanchefor bosses to do as they please. They include the wonderful phrase “any other relevant matters”, which ICTU correctly describes as a highly problematic catch-all ground. Clearly, again, it is simply a right to ask and then a right for the boss to say “No, I am not going to facilitate flexible working.” Perhaps the lack of any appeal against a boss’s decision is because it is mainly women workers who are envisaged as applying for flexible working and they should be grateful for whatever they can get, just like the survivors of the mother and baby homes.

I also noticed that the Bill in its current form does not include domestic violence leave. Obviously, I welcome that the Minister has said it will be legislated for through amendments on Committee Stage, although it is telling that we do not have that at this stage. We will be watching this very closely, particularly given IBEC’s outrageous demand that victims of domestic violence be forced to somehow prove this to their employer in order to avail of the leave. We will be watching to see what pressure it manages to successfully apply on the Government to concede to its, in reality, complete opposition to domestic violence leave. We will be pushing and fighting for proper recognition.

1:30 pm

Photo of Marc Ó CathasaighMarc Ó Cathasaigh (Waterford, Green Party)
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I am glad I came in early as I see someone is availing of work-life balance, and we see that every silver lining apparently has a cloud for Deputy Murphy. We have the great luxury of a position of permanent opposition, where we can find fault in everything. In fact-----

Photo of Paul MurphyPaul Murphy (Dublin South West, RISE)
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The Deputy should be ashamed of himself.

Photo of Marc Ó CathasaighMarc Ó Cathasaigh (Waterford, Green Party)
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I am not one bit ashamed of myself.

Photo of Paul MurphyPaul Murphy (Dublin South West, RISE)
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The Deputy really should be.

Photo of Marc Ó CathasaighMarc Ó Cathasaigh (Waterford, Green Party)
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I am not one bit ashamed of the achievements of this Government in terms of progressing workers’ rights - not one bit. I am proud to stand over it. I am proud to stand over those new things that we have brought during the lifetime of this Government. We spoke about some of them earlier, for example, the extension of parental leave being one of those important things and it is now out to seven weeks, which is very significant for people, the right to request remote working and the introduction of sick leave for the first time. These are all very important and substantial steps forward on the right to work in our economy and society.

This Bill adds momentum to that. In brief, it includes three measures: the right to request flexible working arrangements for caring purposes; the right to leave for medical purposes for carers and employees with children up to the age of 12; and the extension of the entitlement to breastfeeding and lactation breaks from six months to two years. We spoke earlier about how important this is and how, very often, that six months was used up by women taking maternity leave. This now extends the right. I want to acknowledge the work that was undertaken over a long period, but this week in particular, by our colleague, Senator Pauline O'Reilly, who had Private Members’ business on breastfeeding just this week in the Seanad.

I note that at the launch of this Bill, the Minister said he intends to bring forward amendments on Committee Stage to provide domestic violence leave for employees, with reports suggesting it could be up to five days. I echo Deputy Farrell's view that the comments from IBEC regarding this were tone deaf. I reject some of the criticism from Deputy Gannon. It is important that this happens. I know there is a legislative process that has to happen but people will be given a good line of sight on these amendments on Committee Stage. We have a committee procedure for good reason. It is right to bring it forward rather than wait around for stand-alone legislation and it is right that we act on it.

This legislation moves towards making Ireland a fairer place and makes moves in terms of valuing people who work in caring roles. We know that very often falls predominantly on women and we should be careful that it is not left exclusively as the preserve of women. Men have to step up and make sure they contribute in caring roles, and brothers, sons, husbands and dads should step up to the plate in that regard. This Bill allows that to happen and it allows that flexibility for each of us to step into those caring roles.

I would like to acknowledge there has been a huge increase in the number of women entering the workforce just in the last two years, in fact, far more than we see elsewhere across the EU. I know a lot of that can be attributed to that move towards flexible and remote working and working from home, but it also has a lot to do with our pandemic response, for example, measures like the employment wage subsidy scheme, EWSS, and the Covid restrictions support scheme, CRSS, where we made sure that work teams were held together. We know a lot of the workplaces affected were predominantly female workplaces. Those labour force interventions were important and prevented a scarring effect which meant we then saw a bounce-back in the economy.

As a balancing footnote in terms of remote and flexible working, many of us have seen a bleed from one sphere into the other, and a lot of that has to do with the pervasiveness of technology. We all have a smartphone in our pocket and the work email follows us home. A very good friend of mine works in a tech company and can work from home without a problem. He started going back into the office just because he can close the door on it at 5.30 p.m. or 6 p.m. and he can go home and be with his family properly. Something we have incorporated into the programme for Government is that right to disconnect and perhaps it is something we can look at on Committee Stage of this Bill. As we begin to think of work-life balance, yes, we want to give people the option to participate in the labour force more and in a manner that suits them, but we also need to make sure that when people go home, they get to be at home, which is very important.

Although I am repeating what I said earlier on oral questions, the Minister will know this is a hobby horse of mine, namely, the well-being framework and how this Government is acting to expand that definition of what we are. We are not an economy; we are a society. The economy should work for society, rather than the other way round. When we are looking at how our society and economy are performing, we have to look much further than GDP. We have to look at other elements like work-life balance, and that is one of the things that is explicitly treated in the framework that is under preparation at the moment. There are other things, such as how equipped we feel to engage in civil society and how accessible we feel our local democratic structures to be. All of the movement in this Bill and the other pieces of work this Government is doing is all about expanding that conception of what it is we are doing as a society, taking a broader view on it and making sure we do not just treat people as economic units but as people. This Bill is taking significant steps in the correct direction on that. I thank the Minister for his work on it.

Photo of Ruairi Ó MurchúRuairi Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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If we required a lesson during Covid on that idea of work-life balance and how it can be facilitated, we saw a situation where, at times, with all the difficulties that there were, we were able to facilitate both employees and employers in regard to remote working. In regard to this specific legislation, a considerable amount of work needs to be done. If we are talking about dealing with the issue of domestic violence, we would prefer ten days rather than five. Sinn Féin had a previous Bill which contained the idea that people would not need to have proof of abuse, which can create significant difficulties. Within that Bill there was also protection for employers if the leave was not used for the intended purpose. I believe there is a piece of work that we have to do across the board.

I want to take this opportunity to deal with an issue that has come to my attention a number of times. I have had meetings with Revenue and with politicians, North and South, and I believe it needs a Government response. The issue is the difficulty of remote working for cross-Border workers. I will give the example of a woman who is resident in the North but working in the South, who is not able to avail of remote working and who has to be at work.

This is because there are, among other issues, tax and insurance implications for the company. We need to be able to facilitate people. I do not have to explain to anyone here how remote working facilitates people and is necessary, particularly at a time like this when there are added costs to commuting and we are in a cost-of-living crisis. This is an issue across Europe and attempts are being made to deal with it, but those could take a number of years. We know the difficulties we have had with our nearest neighbour in dealing with particular outworkings of Brexit, but we have heard that the mood music is better now, so we need to consider a bilateral arrangement that would facilitate cross-Border workers.

1:40 pm

Photo of Peter FitzpatrickPeter Fitzpatrick (Louth, Independent)
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I welcome the opportunity to contribute on Second Stage of this Bill and will support its progress today. There are increasing concerns that unbalanced work-life relationships can result in reduced health and performance outcomes for individuals, families and organisations. This has been exacerbated by the pandemic, when it was necessary to fuse work life with home life due to the sudden work-from-home requirements.

I am a working man, a big family man and, as an avid runner and chairman of the Louth county board, a big sports man. There are many facets of my life that are important to me. This Bill recognises the rights of humans to lives that include work, recreation, family and recuperation.

I wish to speak about the importance of work-life balance for parents and carers, especially considering that respite services ground to a halt during Covid. Work-life balance for this cohort is not just a health issue, but a human rights one. This is badly needed legislation.

Ireland's birth rate increased by over 16% to 16,131 in the first quarter of this year in comparison with the same period in 2021. Additionally, Family Carers Ireland, in its biennial state of caring report, reported that 1,484 carers were caring for a total of 1,984 people across a range of caring situations – parents caring for a child with an illness or disability, those caring for an adult, carers of older people and those caring for multiple people. Carers do a fantastic job and, as I have often stated in the House, they save the State a fortune. We must do more to provide additional flexibility so as to ensure that parents and carers can be supported in balancing their working and family lives.

I congratulate the Minister and his team on the work done to date. There are a few points I wish to raise about the Bill. Under section 5 on carer's leave, a new section 13A seeks to amend the Parental Leave Act 1998 to entitle certain employees to leave for medical care purposes, providing for five days of unpaid carer's leave per employee per 12 consecutive months, with no notice period required. I agree with the principle of a person having unquestionable access to medical leave and, as such, I agree with the amendment. I acknowledge as well that the employee can, if income is a necessity, take statutory force majeureleave during which he or she is entitled to be paid.

A new section 13B will be inserted in the 1998 Act to provide for the right to request flexible working arrangements for caring purposes. This is applicable to employees with children up to the age of 12 years and carers as defined under the directive. I agree with this change, which will set limitations on eligibility, but for the most part, the flexibility will significantly assist the carer's work-life balance.

The Bill also amends the Maternity Protection Act 1994 to extend the current entitlement to breastfeeding-lactation breaks from six months to two years post partum. Ireland has a long-held stigma against breastfeeding, which often involves shaming the mother. However, this amendment has major implications for the inclusion not only of a mother's human rights, but also those of the child. Breastfeeding protects babies against certain infections and other conditions in early childhood. There is evidence that shows that the longer a mother breastfeeds, the greater the protection for the mother, the baby and society. Therefore, this extension is welcome and will potentially have additional positive impacts on our healthcare system.

While I agree with this change, it exempts employers from providing facilities in the workplace to facilitate breastfeeding if the provision of such facilities would give rise to considerable costs. This seems almost backward but I acknowledge that there is a clause whereby, when facilities are not made available, employees' working hours must be reduced without loss of pay to facilitate breastfeeding. This will certainly enhance the work-life balance of the mother.

In line with Government policy that this leave entitlement apply to all pregnant employees, section 15 amends the Maternity Protection Act to provide for transgender males who have obtained gender recognition certificates as males and who subsequently give birth to have an entitlement to maternity leave and breastfeeding breaks. I agree with the key principle underlying the legislation, in that a person must not be disadvantaged due to non-identification to their assigned-at-birth or biological gender. It is clear to see that social norms and norms around gender conformity are shifting towards the acceptance of a non-binary view of gender identity. This amendment is a positive move forward and I hope it will enhance the work-life balance of transgender employees.

Section 16 rectifies a number of anomalies in the Adoptive Leave Act 1995 stemming from amendments made to it by the Family Leave and Miscellaneous Provisions Act 2021. This section provides for situations in which adopters are male as well as female, which is only right and just. I support this inclusive step towards enhancing the work-life balance of male and female adoptive parents.

Additional amendments incorporate provisions for the introduction of domestic violence leave. The Government must put supports in place for employers to assist them in developing domestic violence workplace policies in order to complement the leave and better support employees experiencing domestic violence. The level of domestic, sexual and gender-based violence in Ireland is disturbingly high. There have been a number of widely publicised violent attacks on women. Since 2020, the level of domestic violence has increased, with Covid-19 impacting women's safety further. Numerous terrified women have come to my clinic and, with the assistance of Women's Aid in Dundalk, we were thankfully able to help them. However, employers need to be able to do more. Therefore, I wholeheartedly agree with this amendment.

Overall, the Government has made significant strides in enhancing the inclusion of all in Ireland. In the budget, we have delivered significant funding to the improvement of women's healthcare. Today, with the Bill's amendments, Members hope to make an improvement to the work-life balance of parents and carers. We must ensure that parents and carers have the capacity and supports to live whole, fulfilling and safe lives. This must incorporate work, recreation, family and recuperation and I hope that the amendments announced within the Bill will make a significant impact for the better.

Photo of Peadar TóibínPeadar Tóibín (Meath West, Aontú)
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I wish to address an aspect of the Bill that has caused great controversy in recent months, that being, the deletion of the word "woman" from it. Across the country, people were angered that the Government would consider doing this. It shows that there is an increasing detachment of the Dáil bubble from the ordinary people of Ireland. Most people I spoke to were horrified to think that, after decades of women struggling, campaigning and fighting for equality, the political elites would, with the stroke of a pen, seek to delete references to women from legislation.

It is not an isolated action. The HSE produced documents recently that removed the word "woman" from information on cervical cancer and replaced it with "people with a cervix". This language caused confusion among people who were in a difficult health situation and damaged the clear messaging around CervicalCheck. It was also grossly insulting to many women to be called a "person with a cervix". Women have a right to their identity. Identity is an important issue for many people. I cannot understand how deleting or erasing the identity of millions of women from legislation, the health service or even schools could be dressed up as inclusivity. It is the opposite of inclusivity. It is happening in the education system, too. Recently, I spoke to a teacher who had attended an in-service day with the Department of Education. The Department's representatives told him that he should not use the words "mother" and "father" in school. The website of the National Council for Curriculum and Assessment, NCCA, offers advice to teachers on how to address pupils. On that website is a link to another where advice is given to teachers not to call classes to attention with the phrase "boys and girls" because it would not be seen as inclusive.

When did excluding identities, such as woman, mother, father and boys and girls, come to be seen as inclusive? The HSE has started to use the word "chest-feeding". When many ordinary citizens see this, they are aghast. They honestly do not believe this is the language used by the political bubble and establishment in this State. People honestly do not believe it. I told them and I showed them and they still could not believe it. This is incredible.

During the summer, there was the famous "Liveline" show. I do not know if the Minister heard it. It was broadcast in June and was concerned with these issues. "Liveline" is one of those shows that allows real people access to the airwaves. We are mostly listening to people in this bubble here or those who are a part of the media spectrum. These were real people on that show who for the first time had an option to articulate their views on this issue. They did so very respectfully. Yet, this caused a significant backlash. Many women contacted me after that broadcast and told me that it was foolish for the Government to underestimate the depth of feeling that exists regarding ordinary women having their identity deleted throughout the State system. The right to be called a woman or to be referred to as female is important to them. They are proud of the fact that they are women and mothers and grandmothers. They feel the language of the Government is choosing to dehumanise them.

It is incredible that these few islands of a different perspective in our vast array of media again elicited a big pushback from the establishment, as if this should not have happened and these voices should not have been heard in our society. This is wrong. Many women now have a great fear in respect of feeling their rights to single-sex spaces in prisons, toilets and changing rooms are under threat. They also feel that the right of women and children to safe spaces is also under threat.

Do not get me wrong. We must protect all our citizens. All citizens of this Republic are equal and to be valued. No one should be discriminated against in any way whatsoever. Everybody should be treated with respect. Currently, however, this country is an outlier even in Western society in our approach to gender dysphoria and the trans community. The HSE is currently still sending children to the Tavistock Centre in England, an organisation about which the damning Cass report was written. A large number of people are also now suing this centre in connection with the damage done to children in this regard. We must ensure we base our policies on science. Ideology cannot be allowed to trump the issue of science in this State.

In a range of areas, undoubtedly, ideology is now trumping science. Here is the thing. There has been no consultation with people at all on these radical changes. There has been no debate. It has been highly undemocratic, and those who seek to engage feel they are being hammered from on high and called all the names under the sun. When Graham Linehan, of "Father Ted" fame, spoke about these issues on RTÉ's "Prime Time" show, Labour Youth was at the gates of RTÉ protesting-----

1:50 pm

Photo of Catherine ConnollyCatherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Deputy, I have given great flexibility.

Photo of Peadar TóibínPeadar Tóibín (Meath West, Aontú)
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Sure. I am nearly finished.

Photo of Catherine ConnollyCatherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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It is not the time. The Deputy has plenty of time. The issue is with the relevancy. I have given great flexibility to every Deputy, but this is beyond the relevance of what is in the Bill or what should be put into the legislation.

Photo of Peadar TóibínPeadar Tóibín (Meath West, Aontú)
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To be honest, this Bill came to prominence and into most people's awareness because the word "woman" was initially to be deleted from the Bill. Therefore, this legislation comes with that provenance now in most people's minds, if the truth is told.

Regarding that debate, I spoke to several Deputies from Fine Gael concerning this aspect. They said they agreed with Graham Linehan and other views on this subject but that they were too afraid to talk about these issues openly. I spoke to other Members of the Oireachtas from Fianna Fáil and Fine Gael and they also energetically agreed, but were afraid to speak on these issues. We have a situation where people are being treated atrociously if they speak up. JK Rowling has received endless rape and death threats because she has spoken up. It was right that the world rallied around Salman Rushdie when he received death threats. Many people who stood with him in that situation, however, were silent when it came to the case of JK Rowling.

We need a rational and respectful debate on this issue. For this to happen, though, people will need to have licence to have the ability to speak up on this issue. Censorship is really damaging to democracy and this is what is happening here. Democracy is about the competition of ideas. We should allow for those ideas to compete with each other respectfully and then allow citizens to choose what is the best path for this country to take.

Photo of Emer HigginsEmer Higgins (Dublin Mid West, Fine Gael)
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If I might, I will start by saying that I am a Fine Gael Deputy and I know that my party and all the Government parties are safe and welcoming spaces for us all to vocalise our own views. We all have the opportunity to do so in this Chamber as well. I believe all our colleagues do this.

I am thrilled to have the opportunity to contribute to this debate today. This Bill contains many exciting and progressive measures that I welcome wholeheartedly. They will have a very positive impact on society in general and on our approach to work-life balance, as well the culture within organisations. This legislation includes several important provisions that will make a significant contribution to supporting workers with caring responsibilities and women returning to work after maternity leave.

The introduction of leave for medical care purposes and the right to request flexible working for carers and parents are important components of this legislation and these measures are concerned with ensuring Ireland’s adaption of the EU's work-life balance directive. For the first time, leave for medical care purposes will allow a parent or a carer to take up to five days of unpaid carers’ leave each year. Employees with children aged up to 12 and carers will also be given the right to request flexible working arrangements for caring purposes. These are positive first steps and I believe they will spark many important conversations in the workplace about balance and flexibility. This is what we need if we are to have a cultural step change.

Any parent will tell you, however, that caring for a child does not simply stop at age 12 and I know many parents of teenagers who would also welcome a workplace discussion around flexible arrangements for them. Designated miscarriage leave is something that I and my party colleagues, Deputy Carroll MacNeill and Senator Seery Kearney, have called for on several occasions. As I have outlined before here, there are many reasons miscarriage leave is necessary and why it would be a worthwhile and progressive step for us to take. I sincerely hope this is coming down the tracks.

I also particularly welcome the provisions around breastfeeding in this Bill. The extension of the entitlement to breastfeeding breaks up to two years is part of a long-standing Government commitment and it will have important benefits for not just public health but also in assisting in breaking down the stigma that still exists today around breastfeeding in Ireland.

Since its formation, this Government has made clear that tackling domestic, sexual and gender-based violence is a priority for us. I especially commend the work the Minister for Justice, Deputy McEntee, is doing in this area. The Minister intends to introduce legislative provisions providing for a form of domestic violence leave. I very much welcome that the Government has approved the Minister’s recommendations concerning this issue. Its introduction will make Ireland one of the first countries in Europe to adopt domestic violence paid leave. This sends a strong message that domestic violence is a crime that will not be tolerated and will not go unpunished and that victims will be supported.

The domestic violence leave report makes two key recommendations. The first is that a form of domestic violence leave be introduced, while the second is that supports for employers be put in place to assist them in developing domestic violence workplace policies to support employees. We know from recent high-profile cases around domestic abuse that workplace awareness and support can play an important role in supporting victims of domestic abuse to get support. Therefore, the importance of this measure cannot be understated.

I am aware that the Department has been conducting an examination of the issues surrounding the provision of leave for Members of the Oireachtas. This is something we must examine. It is a matter we must get right if we are to see the number of women in this Chamber change. Maternity leave for councillors is something we just recently discussed in the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Housing, Local Government and Heritage. As I said then, one of the most important things we can do to attract women into local politics is to make sure that council chambers are welcoming spaces for women and the same goes for this Chamber.

Right now, young women thinking about starting a family feel they do not fit into politics partly because they would not have access to maternity leave, something that should be a basic human right. It is critical that we rectify the lack of maternity leave both in local and national politics. In today's world, it should not be a progressive move; it should just happen.

This is such a positive Bill. I am delighted to see all of the measures contained in it finally coming to fruition to make the workplace a more equitable place for parents, for carers and for the most vulnerable in society.

2:00 pm

Photo of Mattie McGrathMattie McGrath (Tipperary, Independent)
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The purpose of this Bill, we are told in the explanatory memorandum, is to give further effect to Directive 2019/1158 of the European Parliament and of the Council of 20 June 2019 on work-life balance for parents and carers and repealing Council Directive 2010/18/EU and, for that purpose, to amend the Parental Leave Act 1998 to entitle certain employees to leave for medical care purposes and to request flexible working arrangements for caring purposes. That all sounds nice and dandy and reasonable.

In the first instance, I always say that in my experience as an employer, both in my family business but also of staff working for me in the Oireachtas, we try and look after our staff. My staff are mainly female. They are excellent staff.

Photo of Catherine ConnollyCatherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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They always do the work.

Photo of Mattie McGrathMattie McGrath (Tipperary, Independent)
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Indeed, ag obair go crua i gcónaí. I accept that totally. I would be nowhere without them.

I have five daughters and, God bless her, one wife. We have three sons. Now we have six beautiful granddaughters and three wonderful little buachaillí óga - grandsons. It is a good mixture and a good blend. I get plenty of sound advice along the way and I am grateful for that. I thank God, for their health and for their support.

The Bill also amends the Maternity Protection Act 1994 to extend the entitlement to breastfeeding breaks to two years after the birth of the child. It also seeks to ensure that a transgender male who has, in accordance with the Gender Recognition Act 2015, obtained a gender recognition certificate and subsequently becomes pregnant, falls within the scope of the Maternity Protection Act 1994.

The Bill also amends the Adoptive Leave Act 1995 to correct anomalies arising from the amendments made under the Family Leave and Miscellaneous Provisions Act 2021. The Bill also makes necessary consequential amendments to the Redundancy Payments Act 1967, the Unfair Dismissals Act 1977, the Organisation of Working Time Act 1997 and the Workplace Relations Act 2015.

As an employer and having listened to employers, I make the point that these legislative measures are wide-ranging and quite technical. Although well intentioned, they can be problematic for employers, especially ordinary small SMEs. It is fine for the public service because there is lots of staff. I am not knocking the public service but there are staff there appointed in roles to understand and bed-in this legislation and get training on it etc. In a small business employing a couple of people, however, the time or energy is not there. They put every bit of time and energy into trying to motivate their business and trying to get business, deliver the business if it is a service and do the business and receive their remuneration and maintain their work-life balance as well.

We have not, until recent years, taken account of the impact of the legislation. There is not enough of pre-legislative scrutiny in many areas. We are always having issues about that but there certainly is no real impact analysis. Perhaps it should be enshrined in all legislation that we will revisit it after six months, 12 months or two years to see how it is bedding in, what are the impacts it has had, what are the unforeseen consequences which may be many, and where are the shortcomings. I was interested yesterday after a well-attended briefing in the audiovisual room on the mental health situation, where there was a good document published, to hear the Cathaoirleach of the Seanad tell that crowded audiovisual room that they have a piece of legislation and it is coming up for review after eight months. That is the first time I have seen that. It is very important. Especially in mental health but in any legislation, we should have an impact assessment. If I make a decision at work or in business, it always has some impact, either on customers or maybe on some of the employees. One must always be ready to reassess that, to see can you ameliorate it if there is a difficulty and try to have the best vision of it going forward and, above all, that the staff are sásta. The person who is happy in work and happy with what he or she has to do will achieve much more in a day's work and so will the company.

As I say, the Bill provides the right to request flexible working arrangements for caring purposes for parents and carers. That is most important. Most employers are flexible insofar as they can. In some instances, it is not possible. I note it is for caring purposes. I wear the Carers Association's badge i gcónaí. It is a wonderful organisation. Apart from the organisation as it is only trying to manage and advocate, I have not an exact figure for the number of carers up and down the length and breadth of this country but it is quite a large and shocking number. In a survey a year and a half ago, I noted the number of child carers. These were children who should be taobh amuigh faoin spéir ag súgradh, ag imirt and doing what children should do. These children should be out playing and taking part in leisure activities such as sport, rince nó aon rud, for instance, swimming. To think that they might have to be in a situation of caring for their parents, a parent and maybe a sibling, certainly something imaginative needs to be done there.

The carers were very disappointed in the budget. While they got the once-off payment, they are not automatically linked to the fuel allowance. Caring is demanding and time consuming. Indeed, it drains people. They get the respite grant if they are approved carers to get a break once a year. They seldom get breaks because it is 24/7. Some people can be very challenging with serious illnesses. That is an area employers should try to work with, but the Government must do more to support the carers.

The Bill provides a right to leave for medical care purposes, both for employees with children up to the age of 12 and carers. It provides an extension of the current entitlement to breastfeeding lactation breaks for six months or two years. Regularly - I am sure it is the same in most Deputies' offices - my grandchildren get colds or flu. One of them, little Orlaith, was sick during the night. Bhí sí tinn. Granny is stepping in this morning, doing a great job today until 3 p.m. Her mother will work from home for the rest of the day, as well as minding the child. Rearing children of any age is not easy. You should not think you have them reared when they come to nine or ten, or up to 12. Often the difficulties only start at that age. I have them ranging in age, from almost 40 down to 20. I have lived experience there. I am not recounting a history of my own family; I am only saying every family is the same. It is much more difficult for single-parent families or for families that do not have the extended family of uncles or aunts, or, indeed, a seanmáthair or seanathair. It is challenging. It must be awfully challenging when people are abroad in a different country and trying to bring up children in a community that is different and has different ideas and values and different ways of life than we have in Ireland.

It is very important that we are aware of all this.

Many aspects of the legislation are welcome but there are some aspects that I do not welcome. Amendments will be introduced on Committee Stage to provide for a form of paid domestic violence leave. This is very important. Domestic violence is an appalling situation and its victims must be supported. The perpetrators must be brought to justice but they also need treatment because there is something seriously amiss or wrong. It is a heinous crime. We must have restorative justice so people learn the mistakes of their ways. They should not just be locked away but they should go back out to society and hopefully be retrained and advised on culture and what is expected. There is no place in society for domestic violence.

In recent weeks I have been very concerned to find out that we are so short on numbers in An Garda Síochána. Gardaí cannot do everything. No police force can work without the support of the people. When the economic crash occurred Templemore in my county was closed. It was reopened in a blaze of glory and I attended one or two of the passing out parades. Some great people have passed out and graduated with distinction. They have gone to various parts of the country. In recent years we have not been able to fill the places. At present there are only 24 trainees in Templemore. The Government announced 800 new places last year but they were not filled. It has announced 800 for this year but it cannot get people. There is something seriously wrong if we cannot attract young people, and older people given that the age limit was increased. This was a good move to get people with life experience. We have a big problem. Gardaí are the first line if there is domestic violence.

We saw recent issues where 999 calls were cancelled. This should not be happening. There are people out there who make these calls frivolously. They are not well and they waste time. It is only a small minority. A huge number of calls were cancelled and there has been no proper explanation as to what happened. This is very worrying. It will be of great concern if we cannot fill places in the Garda. We will have to look at the terms and conditions of their employment and their pension rights. It has become a very dangerous and challenging job. These are issues for another day.

We cannot keep passing legislation and expect the Garda and other agencies to enforce it where necessary if they do not have the manpower. This is why we have so many issues in this country with a lack of regulation. The regulators are toothless and there are not enough of them. They are brushed by and stood on by big business and corporate Ireland. It is very hard to train them. It is easy for people to arrive at my business with briefcases and sit down and speak to a small employer. Corporate businesses employing thousands and multibillion euro businesses do not pay. A company that started in this country and operates all over the world was fined $101 million. It is a multibillion euro company. It was fined by the state of New Jersey and rightly so. Here we do not have the wherewithal or the tools of the trade to deal with such companies.

I have noticed in recent times, certainly over the past eight years, that we have passed a lot of legislation, much of which I oppose. It is my duty to act for the people I represent. There is a huge push and clamour around some of this legislation. There is the whole area of deleting the words "mná" and "woman" in legislation.

2:10 pm

Photo of Roderic O'GormanRoderic O'Gorman (Dublin West, Green Party)
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It is not.

Photo of Mattie McGrathMattie McGrath (Tipperary, Independent)
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This is my understanding. There was a big furore during the summer fanned by the media and some of the organisations that champion this cause. We have many NGOs and they cost €5.5 billion a year. Some of this money was redirected. We have a lot of good NGOs, do not get me wrong, but I question the number of them. I found out from the response to a parliamentary question asked by my colleague Deputy Nolan that there are 36,000 of them.

The Minister has said changing the word "woman" is not in the Bill but we have a woman being described as a person with a cervix. Ordinary people come to me and email me. They have contacted me because they are aghast at the way we are going. They are aghast at some the legislation we are passing. They are fundamentally opposed to it. They are proud to be women and known as women and live a normal life. They feel we are going way over the threshold in an almighty rush to change the image of our country and turn it inside out. I go back to the family unit. There are different kinds of family unit now. The family unit is so important for nurturing children and helping to support from the cradle to the grave. I have issues and we will table amendments, if we can do so, to seek more clarification.

I agree with Deputy Tóibín there is a silent cohort of people out there busy with their lives, rearing their families, doing their best and contributing. They feel a lot of this legislation is not even relevant to them. They are wondering where it is going, who is driving it and where it is coming from. I say make haste slowly and stall the horses for the moment, go back and re-evaluate. Do not have a select few NGOs dictating what legislation comes to the House. Worse than this, if anybody dares put up their head, as they have on programmes on RTÉ or elsewhere, they are shot down. Where is the freedom of speech? We fought so much to value our freedom and fundamental rights.

We have a problem that I have raised over the past three weeks with the lack of numbers in the Garda and problems with people being intimidated in their homes. It is happening in my county. I am speaking about Tiobraid Árann theas and Clonmel and surrounding parishes. People are afraid to speak the name of the perpetrator. This is not a democracy. This is not cherishing our people equally. Everybody is innocent until proven guilty. We will not look at the situation of the revolving door circus with free legal aid being provided 50, 60 or 120 times. Everybody is entitled to legal aid-----

Photo of Catherine ConnollyCatherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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What is the relevance?

Photo of Mattie McGrathMattie McGrath (Tipperary, Independent)
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It is all relevant because we are passing the Bill and many people have fundamental issues with it. Then they see the other side and legislation that has been passed which is not being enforced. Worse, and no disrespect to the Leas-Cheann Comhairle who I am told is an eminent barrister in her other life, is free legal aid and the whole circus. Legislation on tagging was passed by the House and it seems to have got lost. I am not saying to tag everybody but serial convicted persons who offend again should be tagged. Legislation was passed by the House but it seems to have fallen between the cracks. The Garda is not using it. I understand it is private companies that do it. It is not working. Look at the legislation we have and the failures in it. Make haste slowly with regard to this new territory and the speed we are doing it at. I for one will be monitoring this with my colleagues in the Rural Independent Group. Everybody should be entitled to have their voices heard respectfully and with dignity. This is also the case with the people when they see things changing.

I heard a Deputy refer to teachers being told what to teach in school and what is not on the curriculum. This needs to be seriously examined. There is pressure on people who have decided to homeschool their children. They are good people. They are being put under pressure and brought before the courts because they will not allow all kind of access to their homes. The family home is sacrosanct unless there is something weird going on there. This has gone way too far and I say it must stop. People are entitled to homeschool their children. They do not agree with the practices changing in the schools at an enormous rate. They are concerned. They are being hauled before the courts. That is what is being done.

Photo of Catherine ConnollyCatherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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I am reluctant to interrupt the Deputy but this Bill is on work-life balance.

Photo of Mattie McGrathMattie McGrath (Tipperary, Independent)
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Yes but it is all relative. I am speaking about the Bill. I have finished anyhow. I am speaking about the legislation and the impact it will have.

2:20 pm

Photo of Joe FlahertyJoe Flaherty (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
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I welcome the Work Life Balance and Miscellaneous Provisions Bill, which transposes elements of the EU work-life balance directive and provides new rights to parents and carers in order to help support a better work-life balance. I pay tribute to the Minister regarding his role and for leading so strongly in respect of this matter. He has had two momentous years, plus a couple of months, in the House. He is responsible for much landmark legislation and, as a member of the Government, I am proud to stand behind him in the context of this ground-breaking legislation. It certainly reflects us in a positive light across the globe. I commend him and his officials on their work in respect of this important legislation.

The Government has always prioritised the issue of domestic, sexual and gender-based violence, and thanks to this ground-breaking legislation, Ireland would become one of the first countries in Europe to introduce a right to paid leave for victims of domestic violence. I welcome the Minister's intention to introduce legislative provisions that will provide for a form of domestic violence leave by way of amendment on Committee Stage, which is hugely welcome. It provides answers to many issues we have. There is an awful lot of fear and intimidation in too many family homes up and down and across the length and breadth of the country. It is time we take landmark decisions like this and reach out to people who are living in fear, people who are browbeaten and bet down. We need to stand shoulder to shoulder with them. This is the first of a number of major steps we need to take to move us in the right direction.

I am conscious of the risk of poverty to those fleeing domestic violence. The programme for Government rightly contains a commitment to investigate the provision of paid leave and social protection for victims of domestic violence, which is welcome. For too long the issue of domestic violence has been brushed under the carpet and hidden by many family members. It is right that we challenge this issue, bring it to the fore and seek to address what has been a scourge on our communities and society. It has shattered the lives of many people and left lasting legacies in many family homes.

The Department has conducted research on domestic violence leave, including at international level, identifying best practice and developing a suitable model to roll out in Ireland. I commend his officials on this important work. The measures in this regard are most welcome. The Department has also engaged in a targeted consultation process with relevant stakeholders and social partners to examine how a leave scheme should operate to address the needs of victims most effectively. This has included consultation with the monitoring committee of the second national strategy on domestic sexual and gender-based violence, employer groups and trade unions. Stakeholders of the national equality strategy committees have also been consulted with. I am conscious there may have been negative publicity in recent weeks in respect of employers and employer groups on whether they would embrace this legislation. I have been contacted by many employers who are supportive of any victims and staff members who comes to them. Hand on heart, I know many employers in my constituency who have gone the extra mile and, even without the legislation, have taken the necessary steps to protect their staff. They value them as staff members but also as members of their community. They know the scourge and trauma that has been wreaked on so many families because of domestic violence. That is a message a number of employers, be they small employers or family businesses, have asked me to articulate on the floor of the House, which I am happy to do.

The Minister also intends to introduce amendments to the Bill on Committee Stage that would include legislative provision for a form of domestic violence leave. They will be hugely welcomed and it will be a landmark day when we see that happen. Work has begun on securing a partner to develop the necessary supports for employers in developing their workplace domestic-violence policies, with a view to rolling these out in 2023. From my engagement with employers, both small and large, I know this is very welcome. It is time we take domestic violence, its implications and the problems and trauma it wreaks across this country out of the dark corners, and that we address them in public, in this House and in the Seanad. It is also important that it should be part of any workplace manual. People need to know that domestic violence is not acceptable nor is it acceptable that it is not discussed in the workplace. It should be front and centre of any legal document, any contract staff have with their employer. People's rights as employees, in the unfortunate event that they become victims of domestic violence, need to be protected.

As already stated, I am a great advocate of the Minister's work and of his Department. I am impressed by the volume of work he gets through in his office. This is important legislation for the Government. We are particularly proud of it because it shows Ireland in a positive light. It shows us as a progressive society that can lead from the front and show other European countries how they should deal with what has been a scourge on society for countless decades and centuries. I commend the Minister on his work. I guarantee him my fulsome support and I look forward to the culmination of this legislation.

Photo of Marian HarkinMarian Harkin (Sligo-Leitrim, Independent)
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I am pleased to see this legislation before the House because I worked on the directive for many years in the European Parliament, not just in its final stages when it was a draft document, in committee and in the Parliament itself, but in trying to ensure it got on the Statute Book in the first place. When I was first elected to the Parliament, Kathy Sinnott and I founded the carers interest group and that was one of its first recommendations the group made. I remained as chair of the group for between ten and 15 years, co-chairing some of the time. This was one of our main priorities.

In the European Parliament, as the Minister knows, there is no government or opposition so the Commission comes forward with proposals. I want to put it on the record that we worked with some excellent people from the Commission in trying to get this proposal to a point where it became legislation. Sometimes Members of this House and people elsewhere talk about members of the Commission as faceless bureaucrats. We met the best of people, ordinary people, those who have care responsibilities and individuals who have lives like the rest of us. They understood this. It was a long process because, with the crash in 2008, all social legislation was put to one side, which was a disaster for Europe. I understand people's concerns in that regard, but when we were able to recover a little bit, especially in my final term from 2014 to 2019, social Europe was much more to the fore and this was one of the directives that was meant to reflect that.

As I said, many people helped to bring this legislation to where it is today. It was one of the final directives we passed in the European Parliament in the April or May before I left. I am pleased about where it is at and pleased with whatever small role I played since its inception, which was a long time ago.

This is a broad-based directive. Not all directives are as broad based. As we have 27 member states with 27 difference systems of maternity leave, paternity leave, carers leave and other kinds of leave, it has to work with and not against these systems. Some countries, for example, have better maternity leave provisions than others. We often look to the Nordic countries and what they have in place. In truth, however, when it comes to these issues, Ireland is most certainly not behind the door. In fact, our carers leave system, whereby a person can take up to two years off work and receive carer's benefit, is seen as a flagship example in the EU and globally.

Many countries do not have that.

The system is not perfect. For example, carer's benefit should bear some relationship to whatever salary a person is on. Obviously, that could not be open-ended. Perhaps it could be based on a median wage or something like that. If it is not paid well enough, most people will not take it. For something to be meaningful, real and available, there has to be a certain level of benefit.

It is worth noting that we are well ahead of the posse. We may ask why we need this aspect, and other aspects of the Bill, something I will return to. It is because we need something to bridge the gap. Not everybody wants to take two years. One cannot take carer's benefit for less than 13 weeks. Not everybody wants or needs to take that much time off. They might want to take shorter amounts of leave. To some extent, as I said, the Bill helps to bridge this gap.

I have heard people question the Bill. In my view, it is important. It reflects the reality of many people's lives. It is far from perfect, but it will help to ease some burdens here and there. As I said, there are gaps, which I will mention, but it is going in the right direction. Many people are congratulating us on what we are doing, but we are a little bit late. It is to be hoped it will be on the Statute Book fairly quickly.

I will table a number of amendments for Committee Stage. The Bill refers to five days unpaid leave for a significant medical issue. That term is quite vague and open to interpretation. I do not know whether the Minister can tie that down any further. I do not know who will be the judge of that. All legislation should be as tightly worded as possible. The Bill also stipulates that leave cannot be taken for less than one day. I do know not know if there could be some flexibility in respect of half-days. Sometimes that is all that is needed. Perhaps it is not possible, but the Minister might think about that. On the provision regarding five days within the year, does that refer to a calendar year from when the first day's leave is taken? Could it be a rolling year? In certain professions, the length of sick leave a person can take can be rolled over for years.

The five carer's leave days provided for in the Bill are unpaid, meaning that the carer in question will have to assume a financial penalty. If a carer has to take an unpaid day off and perhaps needs to pay €60 for a certificate, that means that the person has not only lost a day's pay but is also out of pocket. Some companies have already said they will pay, but others will not or cannot. It is not a question of organisations being bad employers; rather, sometimes businesses cannot afford it. This is good, but it is not the perfect solution that everybody is saying it is because people are taking the leave at their own cost.

When we dealt with this at European level, in the Parliament we tried to say that the leave should be paid, but we could not get agreement with the European Council because some member states supported it while others did not. That, of course, would not prevent any country, in this case Ireland, from trying to ensure the leave is paid. I would be interested in hearing about the Minister's discussions with employers' organisations, what they said about this and the possibilities of paid leave. A review could be part of the Bill.

The Bill gives the right to request flexible working, but that is it. The employer can refuse. I note there are various protections and steps that need to be taken by an employer. It is a process, rather than someone saying they would like the time. Even at that, things are far from certain for many people. It is an employee's right to challenge a decision, but he or she has to go to the Workplace Relations Commission, WRC. We know there are long delays of up to 12 months. There is a sense that justice delayed is justice denied. To be fair, it is a further safety net. If people really feel their employer's decision is unjust they can go to the WRC. Would there be any possibility of some other system that would not take as long? That does not have to be put in place immediately. I am just throwing that out there.

The directive refers to flexible working arrangements being for a reasonable duration, but the Bill does not clarify what a reasonable duration might be. That is left open to interpretation. I understand that the Minister is trying to be as flexible as possible, but sometimes that means people lose out. I do not know if anything stronger could be put into the Bill.

I am concerned that the Bill requires an employee to provide to his or her employer information on the employee's relationship to the person for whom medical leave is sought and, which is of concern, the nature of the personal care or support required by the person in respect of whom the leave for medical care purposes is sought. Is there an issue around the general data protection regulation and sharing information with a third party? This is often sensitive information. By virtue of the person's relationship with the individual for whom he or she needs to get time off to care for, it is very easy to identify that person.

The Bill specifies the persons for whom flexible working or carer's leave can be applied for. They are a person of whom the employee is a parent or adoptive parent, the spouse or civil partner of the employee, a person to whom the employee is inloco parentis, the cohabitant, parent or grandparent or brother or sister of the employee and a person other than one specified in any of those paragraphs in the Bill who lives in the same household as the employee. That is broad, but the definition excludes applications in respect of care provided to non-relatives or relatives, such as uncles, aunts or cousins, who do not live in the same household. This is particularly important as the Irish family evolves. The family of choice, as we might call it, is much more common, in particular for the LGBTQIA+ community. It may also be at odds with the pending referendum on Article 41 of the Constitution to extend the definition of family. That needs to be taken into consideration.

The extension of breastfeeding breaks is important. It normalises it. It is a normal and natural thing, and that is how it should be.

I am very happy to hear what the Minister for Justice had to say about domestic violence leave. In truth, it needs to be introduced as soon as possible, not just the leave but the development of workplace policies to support victims.

I will bring forward some amendments on this, but it gives me some comfort to know the Minister is determined we will not be waiting any length of time for this, because we cannot wait.

My last comment is on the need to ensure maternity and paternity leave for all politicians in this House and for councillors, which was referred to by one or two of my colleagues. Earlier I spoke of normalising breastfeeding. This would simply normalise women's involvement in politics. It will not do it completely but it will go a long way towards doing so. It is interesting that we look up when a child comes in here because we do not often see children in this place. One of the first times we saw a child in this Chamber was recently. That is a good thing to see in itself because it normalises family life and who we are.

This legislation reflects the reality of people's lives and it will help ease some of the burdens. I strongly welcome it. I will submit amendments and I hope we will have a chance to discuss them further.

2:40 pm

Photo of Martin BrowneMartin Browne (Tipperary, Sinn Fein)
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I appreciate the time to speak on this Bill as there are a number of key factors that need to be addressed further. The area of leave for domestic violence, in particular, seriously falls short of what should be best practice. This Bill will see the introduction of paid leave for victims of domestic, sexual or gender-based violence. While always welcome, it is unfortunate to note that only five days of leave will be provided for under this Bill.

In November 2020 Sinn Féin Deputies, Deputies McDonald and O'Reilly, introduced the Organisation of Working Time (Domestic Violence Leave) Bill, which was developed through extensive consultation with those involved in this area. The Bill provided for ten days of statutory leave. Why ten days? The reason was that in other countries where such leave had been legislated for - other countries' governments had legislated for this well ahead of our own - leave was provided for ten days. Indeed, public and private sector organisations such as Vodafone, Danske Bank, An Post and University of Galway have also provided for the ten-day period of leave.

In countries where ten days' leave is provided for, it is seen as a timeframe which allows victims of violence the time to take care of their affairs, given the trauma involved and the implications it has for the family unit, including children who may be caught up in this.

When significant time is given, such as the ten days we have proposed, it helps to avoid some areas in which the employee may have to ask for further grace from their employer. The trauma they are dealing and coping with is intrusive enough without having to make further requests to their employer for time. That would hardly be an appropriate circumstance for a victim of domestic violence to find himself or herself in.

The whole purpose of such a provision is to give time to respect and acknowledge the situation in which a person may find themselves and, of course, it should be designed in a manner that respects their privacy. It is regrettable that only five days have been provided for in this Bill. I urge the Minister to rethink this and adjust the timeframe in the interest of those who, unfortunately, will need it.

This Government should take the lead and not be seen as taking what may be seen as a half measure compared to the initiatives taken by others. We need to be able to send out the message that Government is here to support and lay a landscape that enables an optimum level of support to be available to those who find themselves in scenarios which are complicated, especially in the areas of trauma and family structure.

With regard to the issue of proof, the Minister is urged to reconsider the recommendation that states that employers should retain the right to request reasonable proof, given that not all victims have engaged with the courts, counsellors or domestic violence organisations in seeking to exit an abusive or violent relationship. People's circumstances are far less cut and dry than that. Deputies McDonald and O'Reilly have demonstrated in their 2020 Bill that this is addressed through the provision of protections for employers in line with those contained in other legislative areas.

Photo of Roderic O'GormanRoderic O'Gorman (Dublin West, Green Party)
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I thank all the Deputies who have contributed to this debate today and yesterday. The Government is committed to ensuring that every child gets the best start in life and to supporting parents to spend more time with their children in those precious years at the start of life. This Bill provides additional flexibility to ensure that parents and carers can be supported to balance their working and family lives.

This Government has been very active in extending parental and family leave. The Covid-19 pandemic revolutionised the workplace in many ways, but it has also made many of us much more aware of the need for a proper balance between our work life and our home life and for working parents and carers to be a vital part of that balancing act.

The intention behind the legislation is to ensure that parents, usually mothers, and carers, again usually women, are not lost from the workforce because of their obligations at home. The provisions of this Bill are important for the people who will benefit from them, but also for gender equality in the workplace and across wider society.

The Bill not only further transposes the EU work-life balance directive for parents and carers, it meets commitments under the First 5 strategy and the national strategy for women and girls to extend the entitlement to breastfeeding breaks and will provide additional support to women returning to work after maternity leave.

We have persistently-low levels of breastfeeding in Ireland, which Deputy Ó Cathasaigh spoke about in his contribution, and we are losing out on many of the benefits of breastfeeding for both mam and baby. The extension of breastfeeding breaks will play a valuable role in supporting continued breastfeeding and normalising breastfeeding mothers in the workplace.

I am grateful for the many contributions from Deputies. I will go through a couple of them and respond to a few of the more detailed queries now. This Bill is partially designed to implement the final pieces of an EU directive and, as such, those provisions linked to that are carefully drafted to ensure that we are fully in compliance with the EU directive and mindful of its spirit. It was especially fortuitous that Deputy Harkin was here, having been deeply involved with the drafting in her previous role as an MEP, to be able to speak a little bit about the history and the complexity of the drafting of this legislation.

Yesterday, a number of Deputies said that this legislation was solely the Government being forced to do what the EU wanted it to do. I have to be clear that is not accurate. Two elements of this Bill are implementation of EU law, namely, the five days' medical leave for parents and carers and the introduction of the right to request flexible work. However, the provisions we are bringing forward on breastfeeding rates and on domestic violence leave are not required under EU law. They are being brought forward in fulfilment of commitments within our programme for Government. It is worth making that point at the outset.

Deputy O'Reilly spoke on a number of points yesterday. The Deputy and many other contributors discussed the issue of proof for domestic violence leave. Let me be very clear on the amendments we will bring forward to introduce this. We will work to achieve a situation, further to the achievement of which is the introduction of policies is further, where the taking up of domestic violence leave would be based on trust in workplaces. It is not acceptable for victims to be asked to bring forward proof of the domestic violence they have suffered.

We will bring forward proposals that are not based on the need for proof but we recognise the complexity of this area. I refer to what Deputy McGrath said earlier on in that in my engagement with employers' groups concerns were raised about the obligations that knowledge an employee has been the victim of domestic violence places on the employer. There is some fear there and I wish to address that.

That is why we will also bring forward this policy of template policies that employers, from a large employer all the way down to a small business, can apply and implement. It will help them implement this leave, if a request comes from a member of staff, but it will also help them more generally support employees in terms of the issue of domestic violence is raised. We are conscious of those issues and we are looking to support, but we will not be looking for the proof for the provision of this legislation.

There are some employers both in the private and public sectors who have brought in their own policies on domestic violence leave. Deputy O'Reilly asked if that leave is for ten days, whether the introduction of five days' statutory leave will impact on it. It will not impact on that.

It is the same as where a company has a higher statutory annual leave level than the statutory one. The company level is not affected by the statutory one nor will a higher provision of other leave by an employer be impacted by our introducing statutory domestic violence leave.

Deputy Cronin made a number of broad points on gender equality and what we are seeking to achieve here. She spoke about equal and accessible childcare. We have taken a big step in this year's budget by looking to achieve a 25% average cut in the cost of childcare fees by the very significant investment we are putting into the national childcare scheme. It will be a subsidised system that cuts parents' costs. We have also provided core funding to support services. The Deputy referred to the idea of women handing their children over to other women to be cared for in childcare and referenced that the vast majority of the workforce in early years is female. The figure is about 97%. Again, we were pleased to secure a pay increase for 73% of them through the employment regulation order that is funded through core funding. It is a really important for workers who are by and large female.

A number of Deputies referenced other forms of leave. Deputy Cronin mentioned bereavement leave on the death of a child. I think Deputy Martin Kenny referred to leave following a criminal assault or something like that. Deputies Higgins and Sherlock referred to miscarriage leave and other Deputies mentioned other forms of leave. Every one of them sounds like an entirely valid reason for leave to be given. We have done a lot of work on the forms of leave we are bringing forward in this Bill. There has been engagement with the social partners, namely, unions, employers and other representative groups. On the specific issue of miscarriage leave, and following on from a Private Members' Bill that was in the Seanad I think a year ago, my Department has committed to doing further research. That research is ongoing. Deputies will be bringing forward other proposals on leave and they need to be discussed and understood in the round. To sound a note of caution on any of those proposals, it is not, in any way, to say they are not valid and very real reasons for leave to be given.

Moving to a final point on the domestic violence provisions, we are proposing that it will be reviewed after two years so that we can have an understanding of its implementation, its take-up and whether we should be looking to move from five days. Much legislation nowadays has a review period. We felt because this statutory entitlement is so new and we will be one of the first countries in Europe doing it, it is important we examine it relatively soon after it is introduced to see how it is being implemented. We picked the two-year period to allow two employment cycles to understand if there are any issues around it and if there are any ways we can support it through the policies we are looking to bring forward it as well. That is just a wise step to take when bringing in brand new leave like this, which is innovative, in that you have a full understanding of its implications. If elements of it need to be tweaked, that can be done in subsequent legislation.

Deputy Sherlock raised a number of points about the cut-off point of 12 years of age for accessibility of care leave and flexible leave. The directive itself provides for these to be applied up to the age of eight years. We have extended it and applied it up to the age of 12 years but it is important to say, especially with medical care leave, that a parent who is also a carer for a child can, where the child has gone beyond the age of 12 years, still apply for this leave. Indeed, a parent who is a carer for a child who is now an adult can also apply for the medical care leave.

There was some discussion on the grounds for refusal, especially of flexible leave. There is a balance here in that if you are too specific, you are seen as giving a charter to, and lots of ways for, employers to get out of it and if you are too vague, it is seen as giving them any reason. We are trying to strike a balance here. There has been a similar discussion in the context on remote working. We are bound by the directive we are implementing and it is clear that when considering requests for flexible working arrangements, employers should be able to take into account the duration of the flexible working arrangements requested, the employer's resources and operational capacity to effect such arrangements. The employer should be able to decide to accept or refuse a worker's request for flexible working arrangements. It is true to say that this is a right to request and not an automatic right to flexible work. The right to request is the right that is protected and provided for in the directive. It would not be possible to provide an exhaustive list of reasons for refusal within the legislation. Doing that would risk limiting the right we are trying to create.

Deputy Sherlock also asked why a person must be employee for six months to avail of the right. That is set out in section 13B(4) which provides that a "...flexible working arrangement [for caring purposes] shall not commence before a time when the employee concerned has completed 6 months continuous employment with the employer concerned". Section 13B(5) provides for workers on temporary contracts to have been in previous employment with the employer for at least six months, deemed as a continuous period of service for the purpose of calculating the qualifying period. Providing a minimum length of service before an employee can commence a flexible working arrangement allows the employer the time to assess the plausibility and the practicalities of a request from a new employee. Employers can of course waive that period if they wish. When you look at the other forms of leave, many of them require a minimum period. For parental leave and carer's leave, there is a one-year minimum period of employment and even the statutory sick leave scheme requires a 13-week period of continuous service.

Deputy Cairns and I think Deputy Harkin asked what information an employer can require from the employee under the legislation. Section 5 of the Bill inserts a new section 13A into the 1998 Act. Section 13A(8) sets out what information an employer may request when in receipt of a confirmation of leave for medical care purposes. This includes information on the employee's relationship with the person for whom care must be provided, the nature of the significant care and support and evidence relating to their need for significant care and support. Section 13A(9) states that the "relevant evidence" may be a medical certificate or where that is not available some other form of evidence. These provisions are mirrored in section 6 in respect of a request for flexible working. Again, the provision of this leave is closely modelled on existing provisions in family leave legislation and, in particular, the Parental Leave Act 1998 that it amends. Information of a similar nature is sought for other forms of leave, such as parental leave, where information on the child can be requested, including on any disability. Again, for force majeureleave, a statement of facts must be provided to support the leave but obviously any legislation we bring forward and the application and implementation of it has to be done in a GDPR-compliant way. GDPR is part of EU and domestic law and everything that is done in this or in any other legislation must be done in a GDPR-compatible manner.

There are a number of other points I will briefly follow up on. Deputy Cairns raised the dissatisfaction about domestic, sexual and gender-based violence, DSGBV, leave being brought in as a Committee Stage amendment. The thinking here is that work had been under way on this directive prior to me becoming Minister and implementing the various issues. DSGBV leave was discussed in the context of a motion from I think Sinn Féin in December 2020. At that point, I had articulated that I was looking to bring forward separate legislation but officials correctly advised we could implement it more quickly by bringing it in as an amendment to this legislation. The amendments will come forward on Committee Stage, so they will be seen on that Stage, on Report Stage and all the way through the Seanad. With the goal being to get DSGBV leave onto the Statute Book as quickly as possible, it is the right thing to do to include it as a Committee Stage amendment to this Bill.

One of the four elements that probably has not got the attention it deserves is the change we are bringing to breastfeeding breaks. Breastfeeding breaks are part of Irish law and have been since 2004. Under the law, a woman is entitled to take an hour's paid break per day. She can take it as one 60-minute break, two 30-minute breaks or three 20-minute breaks, to breastfeed or to express milk. It is only guaranteed in the first six months and the vast majority of women take their full 26 weeks of maternity leave, so hardly any women have taken up this right. We have a nice-looking right on our Statute Book that no one can avail of. That is why it is so significant that we are moving from six months to two years, so women will be able to avail of this significant right for an 18-month period, for one hour per day. It will be a significant step to reducing those low levels of breastfeeding in our country and to helping and promoting the return of women to the workplace following pregnancy. It is a significant point. It is not required by EU law, but it is the Government following through on a commitment in the programme for Government.

I will address comments made by Deputies Tóibín and Mattie McGrath. This legislation does not delete the words "woman" or "women" from any legislation. That is clear in section 15 of the Bill. I will not get into that any more but to be clear, this Bill does not delete the word "women" from Irish legislation.

Deputies Higgins and Harkin referred to the issue of maternity leave for Oireachtas Members. My Department is working on that issue. We had initial engagement with the women's caucus and subsequent engagement with all female Members of the Oireachtas about their views of what this would look like. We are continuing to work on that. It is essential and needs to be addressed in this term of government.

The policy that we are bringing in for domestic, sexual and gender-based violence leave is important. I referred to it earlier. We need to support smaller employers that do not have a big HR departments in implementing this leave. That is a response to an issue raised by employer groups in our engagement with them.

Deputy Harkin made a point about leave for medical care purposes being paid or unpaid. There is a balance here. There are different types of leave. In existing and new leave, there is a balance between it being paid for by the employer, paid for by the State and unpaid leave. In this legislation, we are introducing domestic violence leave which would be paid for by the employer. We are introducing the leave for medical care purposes, which would be unpaid. It is also worth remembering existing force majeureleave, which is paid leave. The Government has taken other steps where the leave is paid as a social protection benefit. This Government has brought in five extra weeks of parents' leave per parent over the past three years. It is paid as a social protection benefit. There is a balance here. There has to be a degree of flexibility between the cost being shared by the employer, the State, and also in certain circumstances where it is an unpaid leave measure.

The title of this Bill includes the phrase, "work life balance", which is the focus of what we are trying to achieve with this legislation. The reality, as we know, is that family life and caring responsibilities do not pause between 9 a.m. and 5 p.m. every day. If we are to be a more equal and more progressive country, the Government has to help parents and it has to help carers to balance their work and family lives. The Government must be at the forefront in ensuring that our lives reflect and foster that evolving relationship between family life, work, and caring responsibilities. We have to support people to have the time and space to care for their loved ones and to respond to the various challenges that life can bring.

This Bill is Ireland's most ambitious legislation directed solely at improving work-life balance. It will help to deliver that better balance. It will deliver a right to request flexible working so that mothers, fathers and carers can be there for their children and families. It will deliver five days of leave per year for care for serious medical issues, so that in the most stressful moments of parents' lives, their focus can be solely on supporting a person who is ill. It will extend breastfeeding breaks from six months to two years. It will, for the first time, introduce paid leave for the victims of domestic violence. This will make Ireland one of the first countries in the EU to do this. This is transformative legislation that will protect and promote women's participation in the workplace. I commend this legislation to the House.

Question put and agreed to.