Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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69. To ask the Taoiseach and Minister for Defence if the capital provision in budget 2023 is sufficient to meet the needs of the Defence Forces in 2023; if he will outline the way in which the funds will be provided in 2024 for accommodation improvements in barracks, new ships and aircraft and other needed equipment; if there is current funding provision for pay improvements for personnel beyond the terms of the new public service pay agreement to improve retention; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [49363/22]

Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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Building on the previous question and very much welcoming the additional capital provision provided for the Defence Forces next year, bringing the total capital pool to €176 million, what does the Minister expect to be delivered to the Defence Forces for that sum?

He touched on the pay element. Does the Government have sufficient money in next year's budget to do the two things it needs to do? It will have to honour the new pay agreement, but there are also the particular defence commitments to enhancing pay to hold on to recruitment and augment the numbers? There will be additional numbers and additional pay. Does it have sufficient money for that?

Simon Coveney (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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"Yes" is the straight answer to that question. In fact, we will have more money than we need for pay because we have a pay estimate on the basis of an establishment of 9,500, and we have negotiated in recent years that what we do not use on pay we can reallocate for other expenditure in defence. We have more than enough for pay.

As we increase our numbers, we will have to see other elements of the Estimate increase because we can no longer transfer money that has not been needed for pay into capital investment and so on, which is why the €35 million extra in capital this year is important. In fact, we will spend more than €35 million extra in capital next year because we will transfer some money that is unspent on pay, given our numbers are still well below the establishment. We are planning for a net increase of 400 next year. That is a big ask, but that is what we are planning for from both a military and a departmental perspective in supporting efforts at recruitment and retention.

For 2023, the total allocation for Vote 36 - defence, is €893 million, an overall increase of €57 million on 2022. The defence capital allocation has increased by €35 million to €176 million, a 25% increase on 2022 and the highest ever capital funding provided to the defence sector. The acquisition, modernisation and upgrade of Defence Forces equipment is managed through the equipment development plan, EDP, which provides a comprehensive list of planned equipment projects to be progressed over a five-year period. Among the projects across land, sea and air platforms included in the EDP for progression in 2023 are the ongoing mid-life upgrade of the Army's fleet of Mowag Piranha III armoured personnel carriers , the acquisition of body armour and helmets along with a range of chemical, biological, radiological and nuclear suits, the acquisition of software to find radio, the development-----

Mattie McGrath (Tipperary, Independent)
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Go raibh maith agat.

Simon Coveney (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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There are just a couple left if the Acting Chairman could allow me to continue.

Mattie McGrath (Tipperary, Independent)
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We are over time.

Simon Coveney (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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Other projects include the development of a primary radar capability, the continuation of the mid-life extension programme works on LÉ Niamh, the acquisition of two inshore patrol vessels from the New Zealand Government to replace LÉ Orlaand LÉ Ciaraand the acquisition of two Airbus C295 maritime patrol aircraft. I will perhaps come back on that but that is the initial list.

Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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I very much welcome that. Some of those are very expensive projects, however, such as the two new CASA aeroplanes, the acquisition of the two New Zealand vessels and most of all, the primary radar system. They are each capable of gobbling up the bulk of the total capital allocation. Are we going to be seeing these acquisitions replicated for the next three years as an ongoing process to be paid for over a number of years? What will we get for our of €176 million on the capital side for next year? That is the nub of my question. What does the Minister think he will actually get?

Simon Coveney (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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As the Deputy will know having served as Minister in the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform, there are often a number of stage payments over a number of years for large military equipment like ships and aircraft and so on. These projects take years to come to full fruition in terms of the-----

Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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We could have built the Taj Mahal in the time it takes for the CASA aircraft.

Simon Coveney (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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Those of us who knows the pressures on the Air Corps at the moment know that we need new CASA aircraft. They are on the way, but they take time to build and deliver. They also take time to equip in terms of the technology we put on them now, which is just pretty impressive. We also, of course, have a building works programme across our barracks, some which I mentioned regarding Haulbowline. We have equipment such as primary radar ships, aircraft upgrades - Mowag armoured personnel carriers and so on - and then we have a capital investment programme in physical infrastructure. Members have repeatedly raised with me the issue of dereliction on some of our bases, in particular the Curragh Camp. We have a €276 million capital investment plan, some of which, of course, we will invest in next year.

Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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I thank the Minister for his answer. To focus on the pay again, He told us that he expects 400 net additional personnel to be in place by the end of next year. To what will that bring the complement of our Permanent Defence Forces? Second, the pay elements of the Commission on the Defence Forces report are outside the national pay agreement. What specifically has the Minister provided for next year to pay from that?

Simon Coveney (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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I am sorry; what was the Deputy's first question again?

Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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The first question was on the net numbers.

Simon Coveney (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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If we can add 400 net next year, that will bring the numbers back over 8,500, which is still 1,000 behind where we need to be. However, let us not throw our hands in the air here. We have got to start turning the tide.

Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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If we can get 400 net, it will be good.

Simon Coveney (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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We have seen losses each year now year after year. This year will be particularly challenging. As I said, we must turn the tide on this issue. We are doing a huge amount on pay, conditions, investment, certainty for the future, improving the culture within the Defence Forces and safety of the work environment so that we can, I hope, also attract many more women into the Defence Forces. We have an independent report on that. Therefore, a huge amount is happening in that regard. There is an extraordinary effort both within the Defence Forces and in the Department to turn this around-----

Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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How much of the additional budget is the Minister going to use to put money into defence?

Simon Coveney (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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-----and we will. In terms of the budget, if the pay agreement is agreed and signed off, that effectively means an extra €27 million in pay and approximately €20 million in pensions. That is, therefore, an extra €47 million to add to the €67 million, which gives a figure of approximately €114 million extra in the defence budget next year.