Sorca Clarke (Longford-Westmeath, Sinn Fein)
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68. To ask the Taoiseach and Minister for Defence the engagement that he has had with military management and his Department regarding a report that five apprentice electrical artificers who upon completion of their block placement were offered permanent employment and their defence contracts were bought out by the company with whom they were on placement. [49359/22]

Gary Gannon (Dublin Central, Social Democrats)
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71. To ask the Taoiseach and Minister for Defence the plans that are in place to increase retention of Naval Service recruits, following the departure of five electrical artificers to the private sector. [49400/22]

John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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What engagement has the Minister had with military management and the Department of Defence regarding a report that five apprentice electricians, who upon completion of their block placement, were offered permanent employment and their defence contracts were bought out by the company with whom they were on placement?

Simon Coveney (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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I propose to take Questions Nos. 68 and 71 together.

I am pleased to have an opportunity to put a number of points on the record. I assure the Deputies that I have ongoing engagement with civil and military management on all matters affecting the Defence Forces, including staffing matters. I attended the PDFORRA conference yesterday discussing some of these issues. The Government has previously acknowledged the recruitment and retention difficulties in the Naval Service, which present ongoing challenges. This is the case, in particular, for the specialist positions, as the current competitive jobs market is proving challenging for all sectors. The high standard of training provided by the Defence Forces makes its members ever more attractive to private sector employers. However, I am advised by the military authorities that the report referenced by the Deputies is not accurate. Three of the five artificers referred to are trainees who are in the process of discharge, and they did not comprise the entire class, as reported. The two other personnel were fully qualified personnel who have been discharged. There are currently 20 electrical artificer vacancies, with a training pipeline of 20 at various stages, including the three in the process of discharge.

In response to the challenges in the Naval Service, I approved a comprehensive Naval Service regeneration plan in 2021 which is being progressed and monitored by a high level civil-military team. The aim of the plan is to address issues, including human resource matters, facing the Naval Service. A number of the staffing measures in the plan have been implemented. Furthermore, a new recruitment campaign specifically targeting Naval Service recruits is being progressed.

The terms and conditions for the Naval Service entry scheme were revised in 2021 to increase the age limit of technicians and to provide for flexibility in respect of the starting point of the pay scale for marine engineering officers. This flexibility is also being progressed for certain other Naval Service specialists. Other specific retention measures include the seagoing Naval Service personnel tax credit, which has been extended into next year. In addition, having spoken to many in the Naval Service, the seagoing service commitment scheme has also been extended into next year and eligibility criteria for the scheme have been revised. The Naval Service also benefits from wider Defence Forces retention measures such as improvements in pay as a result of recent pay agreements and the extension of service limits for privates and corporals. Greater visibility on the wider benefits of membership of the Defence Forces also arises through the recently announced, and ongoing, Be More recruitment campaign.

That answer sounds a bit defensive. I know that we do have real issues in the Naval Service. Many Members have raised them with me. They are far from solved, but we are doing multiple things at the moment to try to turn the tide on that. It is going to take some time. We are investing heavily in Haulbowline and in new equipment. We have made decisions, as of yesterday, on the back of agreement with the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform to significantly increase the pay of people in their first few years of service. In effect, we are raising pay from a starting salary of €30,000 to just under €35,000. We must also take into account the full application of the Naval Service allowance, NSA, and the removal of the requirement to mark time for the first three years. A lot of things are happening, some of which I outlined at the PDFORRA conference yesterday. It is going to take us some time to get back to where we need to be in terms of recruitment and retention in the Naval Service but it is a big priority for me.

John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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I hear what the Minister said on the recruits. Three, as opposed to five, apprentices were training as electricians. They recently completed their block release with a multinational medical supplier, Stryker, in Cork. The company was impressed by the high standards of the training on which the apprentices had embarked, and they bought them out of their contracts at an estimated cost of €30,000. The Minister and I know that issues exist, and not just in regard to the Naval Service. Unfortunately, the loss of personnel continues to grow, despite some of the allowances and measures that have been introduced in recent years. Immediate action is needed. If the Minister looks at some of the statistics, since the illegal war in Ukraine another 100 members of the Naval Service have left, so immediate action is needed. He might outline some of the actions to which he alluded and state when they are going to be implemented.

Simon Coveney (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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Immediate action is needed. I am sorry. Does Deputy Gannon wish to speak?

Gary Gannon (Dublin Central, Social Democrats)
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That is no problem.

Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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Can we group priority questions?

Gary Gannon (Dublin Central, Social Democrats)
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We were told they were grouped.

Mattie McGrath (Tipperary, Independent)
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It appears they are grouped.

Simon Coveney (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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We can group priority questions.

Gary Gannon (Dublin Central, Social Democrats)
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It is all on the same issue. Such is the importance of the issue, we have both given it priority.

Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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Excellent.

Gary Gannon (Dublin Central, Social Democrats)
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The Minister indicated in his response that the reports were not completely accurate and that three apprentices had left as opposed to five. What is clear though is that this year alone 270 members of the Defence Forces have left, and there is a problem with retention. Much of that comes down to pay and conditions. I believe the Minister and the State are committed to changing that. We have spoken about the issue at length.

Deputy Brady mentioned that the private sector was impressed by the high standards of the Naval Service recruits. Is that any different from what we also see in the teaching or healthcare professions? Wherever the State steps in and trains people, we do a great job, but the issue is that we cannot retain staff because of the cost of housing, the cost of living and basic pay.

Yesterday, at a committee meeting, I asked the Minister to paint a picture of what Haulbowline would look like next year and the following year and the picture he painted was very positive. Could he take a bit of time now to outline that? The best recruitment we have is word of mouth, and I want there to be a future for the Naval Service and the Defence Forces.

Mattie McGrath (Tipperary, Independent)
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I thank the Deputy. For clarification, we can group priority questions, but a priority question cannot be grouped with an ordinary question.

Simon Coveney (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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I recognise that there is concern across the Chamber. If we are going to achieve what we need to achieve with the Defence Forces in the coming years, in simple terms, we have to take on 3,000 people in the Permanent Defence Forces and 3,000 people in the Reserve Defence Forces. That is a net increase of 6,000 people in six years.

Looking at the numbers today, that looks like a huge mountain to climb.

That is why the Government is going to put significant resources into this. Only yesterday, I announced the result of an agreement following a lot of conversation and negotiation with the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform, which means three-star or able seamen who join the Defence Forces will now, because of their marked time requirements, be removed and because they will get the full NSA, their salary will increase by €5,000. The Deputies asked what we are doing in terms of immediate measures and that is one of them. We have also extended the qualification criteria for the seagoing scheme. Previously, members had to have been in the Naval Service for three years before they could qualify, and we have reduced that to one. A lot more people will qualify, which will increase their take-home pay significantly if they go to sea.

As for what we are doing on the ground in Haulbowline, which I know very well because I am there regularly and I live only a few minutes away, we have a capital spending programme that is worth more than €70 million of investment in Haulbowline alone over the next decade or less. We opened what is probably the most high-quality residential block last month, which is a phenomenal piece of infrastructure. We have also opened a new jetty and we are going to open a gym.

John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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More than 270 personnel have left the Defence Forces this year alone, a threefold increase on the same period last year, and that is despite all the focus, the commitments and the rhetoric the Minister has been putting forward in the context of addressing all the issues and concerns within the Defence Forces. There has been a serious and concerning escalation in the number of members leaving the Defence Forces. I welcome the capital investment, but it is meaningless unless we have the crews and personnel to use it.

In the immediacy, the lack of personnel and the haemorrhaging thereof is putting this State and its security at grave risk and under serious threat. While the measures are welcome, we need to know exactly when the announcements the Minister has made on the floor, and the one he made yesterday in regard to the €5,000, are going to be implemented. That is what the Defence Forces need to hear.

Gary Gannon (Dublin Central, Social Democrats)
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That gets to the crux of the matter. The ambition of having 6,000 new recruits in a number of years is welcome, as is the vision the Minister painted of Haulbowline. The report of the Commission on the Defence Forces is comprehensive and has done a great deal of good work but we are at the point now where our Defence Forces are down to bare bones.

At 35 years of age, I have any number of friends who used to be in the Defence Forces because they have left and gone elsewhere. We need to create conditions in which people will want to stay in the Defence Forces and believe things will get better. There is work to be done by the State to present that picture and say things will get better, but also to make them get better as quickly as possible. I do not doubt for a moment the commitment the Minister has to this, but people just do not believe it because they have been mistreated in terms of pay and conditions for so long that morale in our Defence Forces is on its knees and there is a job to be done to build that up quickly before it gets to the point of no return.

Simon Coveney (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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We all have a role in that. We will spend €114 million more on defence next year than we will spend this year, with the combination of the pay agreement, assuming it is supported, and the €67 million on top of that, €35 million of which comprises additional capital. Not every party in the House proposed that kind of increase in expenditure. Sinn Féin, for example, in its alternative budget, proposed a €25 million in increase in defence, including a €10 million increase in capital. If Deputies are calling for something and putting me under pressure to deliver it, which is, of course, their job, it is important we are all consistent too. Defence needs significant investment if we are to get the results we expect.

It also needs structures to deliver on the potential of the commission report. We have 38 early actions, which we are moving forward, including interventions such as facilitating associate membership of ICTU, which all the Deputies asked me for, for the representative bodies in advance of the pay talks. That was useful and it has built some trust with the representative bodies. A range of other things are happening, including a suite of measures I announced yesterday at the PDFORRA conference.

One reason we have been under so much pressure this year relates to the fact Ireland is at full employment or close to it, which means there is an aggressive search for skills. We have great people in the Defence Forces who are skilled and well trained and the private sector is looking to target them. We have to have a strong package to respond to that, which is good on pay, allowances and the other aspects on which the private sector cannot compete with us easily such as certainty, the work environment, adventure overseas and at home, healthcare cover, which I want to extend beyond officers to all ranks in the Defence Forces next year and, of course, certainty in policy for people who want to serve their country in uniform, which is very different from working for the private sector. We are at the start of a massive investment programme in defence, relative to any historical investment. In comparison with other countries, it is not massive, but from an Irish perspective, we are going to increase defence budgets significantly in the years ahead and the career opportunities that go with that will be significant.