Martin Kenny (Sligo-Leitrim, Sinn Fein)
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We support the proposal. I understand what it is trying to do. We all recognise the aggression of Russia against Ukraine and many of its neighbours in recent times is something we in a civilised world have to stand firmly against and ensure we are very strong in this regard. One of the measures the European Union is using against all of this is sanctions. They are a key tool being used by the European Union against the regime in Moscow, and it is quite appropriate. We all understand the logic behind what the sanctions are trying to do. We also understand we have to have measures to deal with those who would be in breach of the sanctions and find a way that all of the countries in the European Union can be in unison in how we deal with it. As we know, here in Ireland we have large financial services centres. They can be enabling bodies as they trade in stocks, shares or commodities. Some of the proceeds may in the past have moved through the financial services centre in Dublin. We need to keep a very close eye on all of this.

Something that always strikes me when it comes to sanctions and statements that we will not buy Russian oil, gas or this, that and the other because of what it is doing in Ukraine is that most countries in Europe will look around to see where else they can buy them from. Often the alternatives are equally as bad and in some cases even worse than Russia. We can look at the history of what has been going on in Yemen and the role of the Saudis there. We need to be conscious that the option to do one thing can create a situation where alternatives may not be much better than what we start out with. It poses a moral dilemma but there needs to be recognition that when all is said and done, first and foremost we in Europe need to look at how we can work collectively to come up with alternatives that guarantee and protect the human rights of people everywhere and not just in Ukraine.

The actions of Putin and the regime in Russia reflect a particular type of corporate fascism that has developed in Russia since the fall of the Berlin Wall and all of the changes that happened when the USSR broke up.

What came to power and established since then has been very dangerous and certainly has no place in the modern world. Basically, we have a regime that is based on oligarchs and very wealthy individuals having considerable influence on the government of that country. We see that in other countries as well. The impact of that goes beyond what is happening in Ukraine, from the point of view that there is a military invasion there which is very clear for everyone to see. The impacts of the activities of some of these very wealthy individuals who are closely connected to the Russian regime or to other despots in other parts of the world is on the economic markets and in how they can influence trade and commerce and have a very detrimental influence on human rights for many people and places throughout the world.

The reality is that we all, of course, stand with Ukraine and hope Russia can be pushed back and defeated, but we have a bigger choice to make and a bigger job at work, which is to choose a better way forward and try to build democracy. I know there is a move to ensure Ukraine can join the European Union and for other countries in the former eastern bloc also to have that opportunity. We have sets of rules and guidelines as to how they have progressed from the point of view of democracy. Levels of corruption in those countries have been and continue to be a serious issue. Unfortunately, Ukraine is not immune to that either. We need to have our eyes wide open when we go into these situations. That said, the future can be very positive if we get over this, but we have to work on making it positive.

Part of that is to ensure all the countries in Europe can have strict and uniform laws around how to protect our democracies and ensure there would be a means of adequately punishing those who would be in breach of the sanctions put in place. The most adequate way of punishing those people is to go after and take their assets because, up to now, we have not had laws strong enough to be able to do so here or in any other part of the European Union.

That is one of the flaws in much of this. We were told Europe was about the free movement of trade and people, but what was never said was that it was also about the free movement of capital. That is the big issue. The free movement of capital has caused an awful lot of our problems and we need to be able to put in place measures in order that we can control that. That is the key issue in respect of all of this, because those who control that capital are very often unscrupulous individuals who are very closely connected to despots, not just in Russia, but in other parts of the world.

Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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I support this motion on behalf of the Labour Party. Russia's action in Ukraine is not just a gross violation of human rights but also an ongoing assault on the territory and people of Ukraine. It is also much more than that. It threatens the peace and stability of our Continent and, ultimately, all of our well-being. We are focused on human rights violations across the globe, but there is no particular violator right now that threatens our security, peace and prosperity in this nation as directly as Putin and his incredible, illegal, immoral and unacceptable assault on the people of Ukraine.

We are required to take robust action. We are a neutral nation that is not part of any military alliance. In fact, we do not have any great military capacity, as our debates on our own requirements in the recent analysis shows. Therefore, there is almost a greater responsibility on us to act in a robust way with regard to taking economic sanctions against Russia and in terms of our humanitarian response in welcoming Ukrainians fleeing from the horrors of war to our land. That is why the adding of violation of EU sanctions to the list of EU crimes that includes terrorism, trafficking in human beings and sexual exploitation of women and children, illicit drug and arms trafficking, money laundering, corruption, counterfeiting, computer crime, organised crime, hate crime and hate speech, is a positive and important measure.

I will use the very short time I have in speaking to this motion to speak to a Bill in my name that we debated at the Committee on Justice last week, namely, the Proceeds of Crime (Gross Human Rights Abuses) Bill 2020. The committee has given it the green light and waived pre-legislative scrutiny. The committee wants the Bill to advance, but it cannot advance unless it gets a money message from the Government. Will the Minister of State go back to his colleagues in Government and allow that measure, which goes well beyond the list of sanctions in that it would be a permanent feature of our law that gross violators of human rights, anywhere in the world, could not stash their ill-gotten gains with impunity in this country? That is a very important principal.

The Government has argued that the Bill would be impractical or difficult to implement. That is not a reason for not enacting it. We had early debates on the Criminal Assets Bureau and we often have a debate with regard to our robust legislation with regard to domestic violence. All of these matters are difficult to prosecute, but that should not stop us from effectively establishing a law. I am sorry the Minister has had to leave when she was here for the previous debate, but I ask the Minister of State to ensure a money message is received and that we can have a complete debate on the Proceeds of Crime (Gross Human Rights Abuses) Bill 2020. I and, I am sure, the committee would be delighted to support any amendments the Government sees fit, to change the terminology or to strengthen it in any way.

It is important for the reasons that have already been instanced. We are now a financial hub in which there is lots of money. I see that two of the bonds that were defaulted upon by Russia yesterday were initiated in Dublin. We are a financial hub. We need to be very clear that we do not welcome, will not tolerate and have robust legislation to ensure against our being a conduit for money generated by gross human rights abuses and be very clear that we will take a very firm stand, including to the point of seizure of those assets, where we can prove they are related to the abuse of human rights anywhere on the planet.

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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The Social Democrats will support this motion. On Monday, we saw Russian forces launching a missile strike on a crowded shopping centre. It was an horrific and a blatant attack on innocent civilians. Nineteen people were confirmed killed and many more were injured or unaccounted for. It is important for us to reiterate that Ireland and the European Union stand united with Ukraine and the Ukrainian people against this callous barbarism and depravity. Putin, his regime, and his cronies who profit from all of this must be held accountable. We cannot say that often enough.

Ireland is a neutral country but, as we have said before, we are not neutral on the invasion nor does it mean we cannot act. We have seen an unprecedented array of co-ordinated international sanctions unleashed to combat Putin’s regime and destroy his ability to fund his murderous war. However, it is clear we must go further. All of us in the European Union must ensure that if we impose sanctions, they have to be absolutely copper-fastened. We do not want to look back in retrospect and see there were loopholes and ways around these sanctions.

At present the rules on evading sanctions differ greatly across the EU.

It is a criminal offence in 12 countries, either an administrative or criminal offence in 13 countries and an administrative offence only in Slovakia and Estonia. Many EU countries lack sufficiently robust legal frameworks to seize criminal assets, making it easier for criminals to hide their resources and benefit from illegal actions. We must work cohesively across the EU on those sanctions or else those efficacy will be undermined. The proposal will go a long way to ensuring a consistency of approach in the EU. Those on the sanctions list are incredibly well resourced and if there is a weakness in the EU's application of sanctions, it will be found. These people have money and power in the form of lawyers, and they will make every effort to wriggle their way out of the consequences of sanctions.

Violations of sanctions have a cross-border nature, which makes a strong argument for a common EU approach. When considering companies and individuals with extreme wealth, it is unlikely all their financial dealings will occur in a single state. Differences in approach between member states make prosecution of cross-border crimes very difficult. A 2021 European network report found that in practice very few individuals responsible for the violation of sanctions are held responsible. Often when the EU implements sanctions, it gives effect to United Nations sanctions because all EU member states are also members of the UN. The combination of the UN, EU and US sanctions are synchronised to maximise the impact on the target country or individual.

With the invasion of Ukraine, the EU and UN have differing objectives. It makes a mockery of the UN Security Council when a small number of countries, including Russia, can hold a veto. Essentially, Russia has not been challenged over that veto and it amounts to significant undermining of the United Nations.

I will also speak to the kind of legislation we can enact. I spent a year trying to put together a Magnitsky Bill, going back and forth with the Office of Parliamentary Legal Advisers and Mr. Bill Browder. It was very obvious that a money message was required, and Deputy Howlin has run into the same difficulties. I have sent my file to the Department in trying to be helpful and I do not see why we cannot collectively work on something that does not have to be polarising. We could all work on something that can produce the desired result to affect a very small number of individuals, with proper safeguards applied. We require the Government to accept that a money message is required because it prevents us from working on this in the Opposition. That is despite the cross-party support for doing something significant in this way. I appeal to the Government to facilitate that work.

Paul Murphy (Dublin South West, RISE)
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The purpose of this motion is to strengthen sanctions against Russia and we are opposed to it for that reason because we are against sanctions on Russia. It is not because People Before Profit or the genuine socialist left is in any way soft on Putin, his gangster regime or his crimes being committed against Ukrainian people. In fact, we are the people who have been consistent on this. When Chechens were being massacred and Grozny was being razed, it was the socialist left that spoke out against it while British Prime Minister Tony Blair welcomed Putin with a red carpet and our former Taoiseach, Mr. Bertie Ahern, shook his hand. At the start of this year, who spoke out about Russian forces in Kazakhstan, there to intimidate a workers' uprising? It was the socialist left and there was nothing from the Government on that.

Who was on the streets today in Russia protesting against the war? To quote one of Putin's allies in the Duma, he described anti-war protestors as "leftist and Trotskyist scum". In other words, they are the comrades of the socialist left. Of course, there are much more than just those from the organised left on the streets. We have been consistent in defending the democratic rights of ordinary people in Russia and opposing the disgusting and dictatorial regime of Putin. We have also been consistent in condemning and opposing the imperialist invasion by Russia of Ukraine and standing on the side of the Ukrainian people.

We do not close our eyes to the expansionism of NATO or the 800 km eastward expansion since the collapse of the Berlin wall. We do not close our eyes to the fact that the number of troops under direct NATO control in eastern Europe has gone from 4,000 in October last year to more than 40,000 now. We do not close our eyes to the tens of billions of dollars being poured in now not to protect the interests of ordinary Ukrainians but the interest of western capital.

The truth is that sanctions are an instrument, to quote the French finance minister, of total economic and financial war. The people who are hurt by sanctions are not Putin or the coterie of oligarchs around him but ordinary people. It is estimated that the poverty rate in Russia is doubling or trebling as a consequence of this action. These are not the people responsible for the war and they have had no act or part in the war but they are being punished. It is people in this country who are being punished through the cost-of-living crisis we are suffering, partly as a consequence of these sanctions.

We have now had these unprecedented sanctions for months but have they worked? There are polls from independent polling companies in Russia such as Levada, which has been declared a foreign agent in Russia. A report from that company indicates the confrontation with the West has "consolidated" people and those people believe "everyone is against" them. They say Putin defends them, believing "otherwise we would be eaten alive". Putin's ratings have increased but why? He is able to use the sanctions to say the world is against the Russians. He argues the anti-war protestors in Russia, with whom we stand, are fifth column agents of the West and so on. Even in their own terms, the sanctions have not been successful.

Why do we not do things that would make a difference for Ukrainian people? We could increase the amount of humanitarian aid and lead the way in calling for the dropping of Ukrainian debt, which will take up 12% of total state expenditure. The Government has never committed to that. Why do we not shut down the shadow banking system used by the Russian and American oligarchs, among others, in this country and hit them where it hurts?

Right now the Taoiseach is on the way or is in Madrid at a NATO conference to attend a dinner. What on Earth is the Taoiseach of a supposedly neutral country doing attending a NATO conference? The truth is the Irish establishment is looking to use this conflict to sidle Ireland up even closer to NATO and undermine what is left of neutrality.

If people want to see the reality of what is NATO, they should look at the trilateral memorandum signed by Turkey, Sweden and Finland yesterday as the price of entry. Those countries must get rid of an arms embargo against Turkey and, already, they are handing over ten Kurdish activists today to the Turkish authorities. They may well be tortured and they will be imprisoned without trial, probably for a very long time. They must agree not to give any support whatever to the YPG, the heroic women fighters who fought against Islamic State. That is the price of entry to NATO, and it should tell us something. NATO is not a force for democracy, human rights or good in the world. It is a force for people like Turkish President Erdoğan, another authoritarian ruler. It is a force in the interests of US imperialism in particular.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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I share similar concerns with the previous speaker about our participation in this with a view to having a directive in future. I have the most serious concerns.

From day one I have condemned the illegal invasion of Russia and I stood with sanctions. However, I have come to the point where I am seriously considering their efficacy, what is happening with those sanctions and who they are affecting the most. As an active neutral country that is respected in the world, the least we might do is question. When questioning becomes dangerous, as it has in this Dáil, because I heard the Taoiseach reply to those on the left as being supporters of Putin and reducing the argument to that, it is frightening. I will not waste my few minutes by putting on record once again my abhorrence of what Russia has done.

I am seriously worried about what Europe is becoming. I am seriously worried that more and more we are going into a consensus mentality as the best boys and girls in the class. No other type of view is tolerated; no other type of question. Those who dare are demonised as Putin supporters. These are people who never in their lives supported Putin and who always questioned the system when the establishment was doing everything possible to play up to him. I have the most serious concerns about NATO and what is happening. It is not acceptable that our Taoiseach is in Spain at the moment, or on his way there, to take part in meetings organised by NATO. It is sort of nuanced in that he is not taking part in all of the meetings, just some of them. What type of meetings? Will we have the records of those meetings? Will we have the minutes? Do we know what he is saying on our behalf?

We have a Europe that is building up its fortress more and more. The International Organization for Migration reports that up to 600 people attempting to reach Europe by sea went missing in the first three months of 2022. The updated figure is 900 people that we know about have gone missing, the highest figure since 2014. What is Europe doing about that? Deputies are looking at me as if they do not know how I could come up with this. Surely there is an obligation on us and a moral duty to question what Europe is becoming that is allowing for this type of death and destruction in the Mediterranean Sea while people still swim and go on holidays there. As of 27 June, 900 people have gone missing trying to reach the borders.

I have not had a chance to look in detail at the deal that has been done between Turkey, Sweden and Finland in respect of the Turkish people there. A deal was done with Turkey on helping to build up Fortress Europe in 2015. Turkey was paid what I would call dirty money to deal with the refugee and asylum problem, outsourcing at every level. There is a report from Amnesty International, which I have only had a chance to look at briefly but I will go back to it. It is about Lithuania's behaviour, a proud member of the EU. Colleagues around me might look at what the Amnesty report has said about Lithuania. The report is entitled, "Lithuania: Forced out or locked up – Refugees and migrants abused and abandoned", and was published this week. It catalogues the treatment suffered by refugees and migrants who crossed from Belarus in 2021 and 2022 at the hands of the Lithuanian border guards, the public security service, detention centre staff, lawyers and so on. The human rights violations documented by Amnesty include violent pushbacks, torture and other ill-treatment, including sexual violence and humiliation. That is in Lithuania, a member state of the EU.

We have an Amnesty report on Israel and the Government doing nothing about that. The Amnesty report clearly states that Israel is operating an apartheid system. Months later the Government is still considering its response. We have a war in Yemen that none of us is raising anymore. There are 300,000 to 400,000 dead in a war backed by Saudi Arabia, which is backed by the powers-that-be, including our country.

What am I saying with all of this? Is Russia right? Absolutely not. What is our role as a small, neutral country? What does our experience tell us? It tells us that we need to take our courage in our hands and stand up and show that there is a different way and that sanctions need to be questioned at some point to see if they are affecting what they are supposed to be affecting. I refer to what was said about Cuba in 1963 when President Kennedy brought in sanctions that are still in place. The assistant Secretary of State, Lester D. Mallory, had written that, "every possible means should be undertaken promptly to weaken the economic life of Cuba ... to bring about hunger, desperation and overthrow of government." The obvious question is how making Cuba poorer, sicker and more isolated supports the people of Cuba. Of course, the people of Cuba have persisted. That is just one specific example of sanctions at this point.

Instead of joining the boys' club we should use our voice to question----

Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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And the girls, too.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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And the girls' club, absolutely, certainly in respect of the deplorable comments of Ursula von der Leyen. It is time to ask questions and not make doing so an offence.

James Browne (Wexford, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the Deputies for their contributions. Deputy Martin Kenny referred to the logic of sanctions and measures to deal with breaches that are necessary and the need to strengthen our laws. I note those comments. I am not sure I agree with his suggestions around controlling capital within the European Union. That is one of the key four pillars of the Union and something that needs to be maintained.

Deputy Howlin rightly argued that Russia's actions in Ukraine are not only a gross violation of human rights and an assault on the people but they threaten the peace and stability of Europe. We have heard a lot from the attorney general in the UK about imminent peril and the definitions around it in respect of the protocol and the false justifications for the legislation they brought in. However, peace and stability within the Continent of Europe is in a state of imminent peril with what is happening in Ukraine and if Russia continues on its way.

On the Proceeds of Crime (Gross Human Rights Abuses) Bill 2020 and the need for a money message, which Deputy Catherine Murphy also raised, I will bring those comments to the Minister, Deputy McEntee. I note Deputy Catherine Murphy's consistent opposition to sanctions against Russia and Deputy Connolly's comments also. I thank the House for facilitating the motion today. I thank those colleagues who have supported the motion for their support.

As I mentioned in my opening remarks, with Russian aggression against Ukraine ongoing it is paramount that EU restrictive measures are fully and consistently implemented. I gave an overview of the measures included in the six packages of EU sanctions that have been agreed since 23 February, the most significant sanctions in the EU's history. Since the start of the war, Ireland has been consistent in advocating for a maximalist approach to sanctions. These sanctions are unprecedented but they are only effective insofar as they are properly implemented. Ireland along with EU partners is working to ensure that EU sanctions are fully implemented and enforced, including through the effective implementation of asset freezes.

Officials across government have been actively participating in the European Commission's freeze and seize task force to ensure the co-ordinated and effective cross-EU implementation of the sanctions adopted against Russian and Belarusian individuals and entities. Four subgroups of the task force have been created to focus on specific issues. The first focuses on identifying and freezing sanctioned assets and reporting on these freezes, the second on criminal investigations and confiscations, the third on the creation of a common European fund to reconstruct Ukraine using confiscated assets, and the fourth and most recently established subgroup looks at tax enforcement.

In view of the gravity of the situation we are currently witnessing, it is vitally important that all necessary measures are taken to ensure those who attempt to violate sanctions are dealt with robustly and consistently across the Union. The addition of the violation of restrictive measures to the list of EU crimes is a necessary first step in fortifying the sanctions regime. Ireland opting in now under an Article 3 opt-in will ensure that we are at the table with our European partners and can be involved in the detailed discussions and in progressing these measures as swiftly as possible to allow progress to take place at EU level without delay. Once this step is complete and violations of sanctions has been added to the list of EU crimes, a new directive will be brought forward to harmonise how the violation of sanctions is defined and penalised in criminal law across member states. I commend the motion to the House.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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In accordance with Standing Order 80(2), the division is postponed until the weekly division time tonight.