Michael Creed (Cork North West, Fine Gael)
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I thank the Ceann Comhairle's office for selecting this matter. I appreciate the Minister of State being here to respond to the debate. For the record, I submitted the matter for the attention of the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform. I appreciate that the Government appears to operate on a silo basis. As a result of the problems that that gives rise to, we have a situation where after a very protracted and sometimes acrimonious issue with community employment, CE, supervisors who resorted to the intervention of the Labour Court, ultimately, a settlement was reached in respect of a financial arrangement on the retirement of CE supervisors, which is most welcome. What I am really asking for, in the context of this debate, is that Government joins the dots. There is no difference on the ground, in all practical reality, between the work that CE supervisors, Tús supervisors and rural social scheme supervisors do. I am sure the Minister of State will appreciate that. There is not a community in urban or rural Ireland that is not benefiting significantly from these interventions. I fail to see why we insist on differentiating between the arrangements for CE supervisors and Tús and rural social scheme supervisors when they retire. That is the problem. Ultimately, the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform controls the purse strings. I appreciate that the Department of Social Protection is hands-on in terms of the day-to-day administration of these issues. However, as I said at the outset, we need to join the dots here. Otherwise, we will be dragged, kicking and screaming, to a resolution of this issue. It would be better to resolve the issue without resorting to that form of acrimony, that level of unnecessary engagement and a repetition of visitations to the Labour Court, which I am absolutely certain, because the circumstances are entirely the same, would result in the same judgment.

I would appreciate it if the Minister of State could consider the matter in detail. The amounts of money in the context of the overall budget of the Department are very small. As I said, there is no difference, in practice, between the work these people do in rural social schemes, Tús and CE schemes. It is the logical thing to do. I regret that the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform has done everything to duck, weave and avoid addressing this issue. I have attempted to submit several parliamentary questions on the issue to that Department on the basis that it ultimately controls the purse strings. I suspect the Minister may well tell me that notwithstanding his good intentions and wish to resolve this issue, he cannot do so. That is why I appeal to Government collectively to address this issue and join the dots. It will be solved and the dots will be connected, ultimately. Let us do it before we are dragged, kicking and screaming to do it.

Joe O'Brien (Dublin Fingal, Green Party)
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I thank the Deputy for raising the issue. At the outset, I want to acknowledge the excellent work that is done on the full range of schemes, including the community employment, Tús and rural social schemes, supported by my Department, and the contribution that these schemes and their workers make to communities across the country. Work schemes, such as Tús and the community employment scheme, are positive initiatives that enable the long-term unemployed to make a significant contribution to their communities while upskilling themselves for prospective future employment. The rural social scheme, RSS, provides farmers and fishers with income support while continuing to work in the area of farming or fishing and also make a contribution to their community. At present, there are more than 10,000 places available on Tús and the RSS, with a budget of over €160 million available to support the schemes in 2022.

As the Deputy will be aware, the Department of Social Protection sponsors and funds these schemes that are delivered by independent bodies. While the Department funds participant and supervisor wages, the Department is not the employer of any scheme participants, their supervisors or team leaders. Furthermore, the State is not responsible for funding pension arrangements for employees of private companies, even where the companies in question are reliant on State funding. Pension arrangements are a matter to be agreed between employees and their employers.

All employers, including the rural social scheme and Tús implementing bodies, are legally obliged to offer access to at least one standard personal retirement savings account under the Pensions (Amendment) Act 2002.

Community employment supervisors and assistant supervisors have been seeking the implementation of a 2008 Labour Court recommendation relating to the provision of a pension scheme for a number of years. Discussion had been ongoing for several years through their union representatives to reach an agreement and to have Exchequer funding allocated for this purpose. The discussions that led to the agreement were held in the clear knowledge and agreement of all involved that they related solely to those parties who were the subject of the 2008 Labour Court recommendation, namely, community employment supervisors and assistant supervisors, and that any agreement reached arising from these discussions would apply only to those parties. The Deputy will be aware that a settlement was recently reached on this issue when the unions involved confirmed acceptance on 23 December 2021 of the ex gratiapayment. That settlement will now benefit more than 2,200 people who employed by community employment schemes since 2008. The settlement is estimated to have a total cost of over €24 million.

Under the terms of this settlement, upon reaching retirement age, community employment supervisors and assistant supervisors will receive a once off ex gratiapayment for time employed by community employment schemes since 2008. People who have retired since 2008 will be able to apply for payments immediately when the scheme is in place. The Department is now working to put in place the administrative arrangements to implement the agreed settlement so that payments will issue to qualified community employment workers this year.

The discussions leading to this agreement were held in the context of a specific Labour Court recommendation, dating back to 2008. This was acknowledged by all participants in the discussions and so the specific agreement referred to by the Deputy is framed in that context and cannot extend to any other workers.

Michael Creed (Cork North West, Fine Gael)
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The Department of Social Protection did not distinguish itself in helping with this issue between 2008 and the recent resolution of the problem for community employment supervisors. Of course, the deal was confined to those in the room, which included the Department of Social Protection, the community employment supervisors and their representatives. We are talking about the people who were locked out of the room, including the Tús supervisors and the rural social scheme supervisors. I am sure the Minister of State acknowledges that those people do the exact same work as community employment scheme supervisors. Notwithstanding the fact that the 2008 Labour Court recommendation was specifically about community employment scheme supervisors, does the Minister of State accept that the people to whom that Labour Court recommendation applies do the exact same work as employees or supervisors of the Tús and rural social schemes?

For God's sake, will the Minister of State avoid this circuitous journey to a resolution? This issue will be resolved because it is the right thing to do. It is €24 million out of multiple billions of overall expenditure in the Minister of State's Department, which is not a lot of money. These people do invaluable work. I know the Minister of State accepts that and that his Department would like to resolve this issue. Can we end the silo mentality in the Government that states we cannot sit around the table, join the dots, accept the logic of the settlement and extend it to those Tús and rural social scheme supervisors? It is the right thing to do. I know the Minister of State and the Minister, Deputy Humphreys, know it is the right thing to do. Can we have proper engagement with the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform and have this sanctioned?

Joe O'Brien (Dublin Fingal, Green Party)
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I thank Deputy Creed for raising this matter and for highlighting the work that is done by all these schemes. The schemes are different.

Michael Creed (Cork North West, Fine Gael)
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Not the work they do.

Joe O'Brien (Dublin Fingal, Green Party)
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That is not to put a different value on anything. They are all extremely valuable. Tús was originally a one-year programme.

Michael Creed (Cork North West, Fine Gael)
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Not for the supervisor.

Joe O'Brien (Dublin Fingal, Green Party)
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The rural social scheme is an income support measure. It does not have a training element, to make a slight distinction. It may look as if they are identical from the outside, but they are not. They are all of equal and high value. The Deputy knows I place a huge emphasis on the importance of such schemes. I have visited many community employment, Tús and rural social schemes over the past number of months, speaking with participants, supervisors and implementing bodies. I am fully aware of the important work that they carry out in the community.

I have seen first hand the great work that is being carried out, providing valuable services to the vulnerable members of our communities, in keeping our towns and villages looking so well, and in helping to protect the environment. The agreement that the Deputy refers to was entered into in the knowledge that it would pertain only to community employment supervisors and assistant supervisors. The focus for the Department at present remains on putting the administrative processes in place that will ensure that payments issue to those supervisors identified by the Labour Court as being entitled to receive them. Both the Minister, Deputy Humphreys, and I are fully aware that all schemes make a valuable contribution to communities through the provision of services and my Department will continue to support them to do this.