Donnchadh Ó Laoghaire (Cork South Central, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

In September, the Women of Honour bravely came forward to tell their experiences of bullying, harassment, discrimination, misogyny, sexual assault and rape. They were forced to go public with their very difficult and distressing stories because they had been so badly let down by the State and the Defence Forces in getting accountability for what they had experienced and because they were determined to get to the truth.

In that week, the Minister, Deputy Coveney, in this Chamber gave assurances that he would treat this issue as a priority. He gave assurances that the women impacted would have an input into the terms of the review. He said he would bring about real change. This never happened. Instead, the Minster, backed up by the Taoiseach, decided, with no input from the Women of Honour, that this would be an internal review only and not a statutory inquiry, for which the women affected had asked. Bheartaigh sé nach mbeadh gá le gach duine dul isteach ann agus páirt a ghlacadh, iad siúd a bhí ag argóint i gcoinne na líomhaintí san áireamh. Tá na mná tar éis a cheistiú conas gurb é seo an fíorathrú a mhol an tAire ceithre mhí ó shin, agus tá an ceart acu. An internal review will not establish the extent of abuse by perpetrators. It will not get to the heart of the coercive influence and other negative career impacts that followed from what was a wholly inadequate complaints process.

Tá na moltaí seo ag ligean mná síos. Tá sé sin déanta níos measa de bharr cad atá ráite ag an Taoiseach nuair a dúirt sé go bhféadfaí iniúchadh breise a bheith ann ag uair éigin sa todhchaí, cé nach raibh sé soiléir faoi cathain a bheidh an t-am sin ann. Níl sé ródhéanach don Aire ná don Taoiseach an rud ceart a dhéanamh.

The Minister can and must establish a full commission of investigation. The Women of Honour have shown great bravery, determination and resilience in their pursuit of truth and justice. I believe "Women of Honour" is a good title for them. They have shown courage and they have a great deal of pride in their own service and their roles in the Defence Forces. They feel very badly let down. They still feel an obligation to their colleagues in the Defence Forces to make things better and to change things.

It is now the Minister's turn to take a stand against abuse and harassment, stand up for that honour and protect all current and future members of the Defence Forces and Naval Service. It is not too late for him to do the right thing.

Martin Browne (Tipperary, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

In December, following the airing of the RTÉ documentary "Women of Honour", the Minister for Defence told the House that in light of the dreadful revelations that emerged he was going to put in place a process that would deliver real change. Unfortunately, what has come from his Department has fallen far short of this commitment or the great lengths to which the women concerned went in their pursuit of truth and justice.

When survivors of abuse, in whatever form or circumstances, go to great lengths and at great personal cost to tell their stories and to seek justice, it is incumbent on all of us to ensure every mechanism of the State is made available to address these issues and to ensure they do not happen again. Just as we have seen with the survivors of the mother and baby homes, the Government seems to listen to anybody else apart from those immediately affected. Just like those survivors, the women of honour and others who have had similar experiences continue to live with the consequences of the injustices imposed on them.

What we have learned through these revelations is deeply disturbing as it concerns some of the gravest allegations that can be made. An internal review will not deliver real change because we need to know the extent to which these problems prevail within the Defence Forces. There is a legal and moral obligation to ensure those who serve the State, offer protection to others at home and preserve peace abroad are themselves protected.

The Offices of the Ombudsman for the Defence Forces is not an effective mechanism for dealing with complaints of the nature raised, given the seriousness of the allegations concerned, even if it accepts there are shortcomings in the ability of the office to deal with the issues arising from the Defence Forces. One of the most serious of these is the fact that section 4 of the 2004 Act does not adequately provide for certain categories of interpersonal complaints, including inappropriate behaviour, sexual abuse and sexual harassment, among others. This particular shortcoming means we do not have accurate data on allegations of this nature, nor does the ombudsman have the ability to conduct its own initial inquiries. We have left it up to the internal investigation systems for too long.

The women of honour need a statutory inquiry that has the power and scope to determine the scale and depth of the problems across the Defence Forces. We have to examine the culture within the Defence Forces, not ignore it in favour of something lighter which will leave the women of honour feeling more abandoned than they already do. That is how they have told us they feel.

The Defence Forces is a workplace and, as such, the Minister has to commit to a zero-tolerance approach towards bullying, harassment, discrimination, assault and all forms of gender-based violence in the workplace by establishing a full statutory inquiry into the allegations and their repercussions. The women of honour most recently walked out of a meeting with the Minister because he would not address their concerns. If he continues to ignore their demands, what he effectively will be doing is ignoring every other victim or potential victim.

Mairead Farrell (Galway West, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I would like to thank my colleague, Deputy Clarke, for bringing forward this motion in support of the women of honour. We fully support their call for a full statutory inquiry. We commend their courage and bravery. We believe them and we will continue to stand with them.

I have no doubt of the massive toll this has taken on them. Like many whistleblowers, they went through an incredibly difficult process to bring this to light and, like many whistleblowers, they were driven by what is right. These women have helped to blow the whistle on extremely serious allegations of abuse, sexual abuse, harassment and discrimination. The fact that an organisation set up to protect could enact this kind of treatment on those within its own ranks is dumbfounding. Like so many whistleblowers before them, the official channels failed them.

The measures proposed by the Minister to investigate these allegations are so inadequate as to be almost offensive. They are, in the words of these women, ineffective and powerless to get to the real heart of the issue. These women deserve a hell of a lot better than this. These issues are long-standing; we all know this. Dr. Tom Clonan's research into this kind of abuse laid it out in painstaking detail. As part of his research, 60 female soldiers, sailors and air crew were surveyed. Of these, 59 reported they had suffered abuse or discrimination and 12 said they had been sexually assaulted or raped. At first, there were attempts to discredit this research before eventually the findings were accepted and we were told it would never happen again. Yet, as Dr. Clonan said, the culture continues.

It was only a couple of weeks ago that members of the Government said in this House that we had to change how women are treated in this State. It is now within the power of the Minister to change how all women are treated. It is within his power to change how women in our military are treated. These women should be given the statutory inquiry for which they are calling.

Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

We are finally, as a whole of society, shining a light into the very structure of our society and, in particular, on the role of women and how women are treated here. Decades of campaigning for equality, during which incremental hard-won steps were made on that journey, still leave us a long way to travel.

This House reflected the shared outrage of the Irish people at the brutal murder of Ashling Murphy recently. Many more incidents of assault and harassment have come into the public domain since those statements were made here. That day, we committed to the people of Ireland that the issue of violence, abuse, domestic or otherwise, and sexual assault would be rooted out of all areas of Irish life. All of us, across all of these benches, committed to keeping a firm and constant focus on these matters. I believe this motion falls squarely into this commitment, and I commend those who have moved it.

Military structures have been, for generations, overwhelmingly male and hierarchical. That is true worldwide. The opening of the Irish military to women, when 38 women became the first female recruits into our Defence Forces in October 1981, marked a sea change. All institutions reflect the societies they exist in, good and bad. If bullying, harassment, sexual misconduct and discrimination are issues for our society as a whole, they are likely to be issues for institutions in that society, such as the military. In fact, they are likely to be amplified by an institution that is structured on a hierarchy with a strong code of internal discipline and loyalty.

In that context, we, the public and their representatives depend on brave individuals to call out wrongdoing and stand up and demand proper, impartial and thorough investigations, the only function of which is to determine the truth, wherever it may lie and wherever the chips may fall. The women of honour are those brave women. They are willing to stand up and demand that their voices and those of others be heard and fully acted upon.

I was privileged to draft and guide through these Houses the protected disclosures legislation, the so-called whistleblowers Act. During that process, I listened to many cases of suppressed truth. I examined many legal models to try to provide the best possible assistance to any person in a workplace, be it private or public, who witnesses or experiences wrongdoing and wants to call that out. It is clear to me, after all of our debates and determination to build the best legal protection, that actually taking the step of calling out wrongdoing is very hard. It is always infinitely easier to stay silent, to not draw attention to oneself and to endure, rather than to step out from the crowd and say that something needs to be addressed.

Too often - we have seen examples - the price paid by the whistleblower is a very high price indeed. Therefore, in justice and in fairness what should our response be to the matters before us now - the brave and shocking testimony of women who shared their experiences of physical abuse, harassment, coercion and sexual assault? There are others. Men have also experienced abuse within our Defence Forces.

I know the Minister, Deputy Coveney, to be a decent and fair-minded man. He has proposed an independent judge-led review. The day that he announced the review he stated, "We need to establish this critical Independent Review to ensure that the Defence Forces is a safe workplace for all current serving members while also reviewing historical allegations". The Minister of State has outlined this review to the House. He set out its membership and said that an interim report is to be provided within six months and a final report within 12 months. However, the stated intention of the review as set out by the Minister is in fact two separate and distinct aims: first, to ensure that the Defence Forces is a safe workplace, which must be a priority; and second, to review so-called historical allegations.

Many of us have long experience in this House. Most of us know that without all the powers of compellability, taking sworn evidence in public and so on available to a statutory inquiry, an adequate investigation of the serious cases of abuse and misconduct that have been set out by the Women of Honour is highly unlikely to be fully ventilated. That is our shared experience. If we want to know the full facts, and find how these things happened and what the consequences are, we need a statutory inquiry to look into these matters.

Separately, there is an urgent requirement to achieve the Minister's first stated objective. He is an employer. He is obliged morally and legally to provide a safe workplace for the members of the Defence Forces who turn up every day to do the unique work they undertake. I firmly believe that the Minister needs to think again. He is a decent man, as I have said and he is well intentioned. I believe he has listened carefully to the voices of those who have suffered, but it is clear that each of his aims cannot be achieved by the mechanism he is now proposing.

Having regard to the Women of Honour and their experience and having regard to the thousands of women and men currently serving, a different model is required. Perhaps a twin model is required, one to examine the cases of abuse and a second to swiftly put in place robust and acceptable mechanisms for addressing complaints which replaces the current practices and mechanisms which clearly are not fit for purpose.

The fact that in recent days we have heard further allegations of sexual assault, which nobody can categorise as historical, requires us to take action and requires the Minister to take action. It cannot be delayed. The overwhelming majority of our defence personnel need to be assured that they have a safe working environment and that whatever culture existed in the past which undermined that safe working environment must be eliminated. We need robust mechanisms to deal with them. Therefore, the Government needs to put in place a safe working environment. That can be done swiftly. Separately, it needs to establish a statutory inquiry to provide the full unvarnished truth to those honourable women who have set out their experiences for all of us to see.

Gary Gannon (Dublin Central, Social Democrats)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I thank Sinn Féin and in particularly Deputy Clarke for tabling this motion today. It is certainly a timely debate that needs to be had. The very antithesis of restorative justice is to retraumatise the victims. That is not the first time I have used those words in this Chamber related to a group of people, in particular women, who have been wronged in a most gruesome fashion. I have said that the interaction they have had with the State has compounded their suffering as they have sought justice for the wrongs inflicted on them.

I thought about that statement again last week when, at the invitation of Deputy Tóibín, I along with Opposition Deputies sat in the audiovisual room of Leinster House and listened to the testimony of three incredible people who are part of a collective of survivors of abuse in our Defence Forces who came to be known as the Women of Honour. Honourable those women certainly are. Having first become aware of their experiences through the RTÉ programme of the same title presented by Katie Hannon and then through an exchange of emails with the group and through the extensive media coverage since, I thought I was familiar with the harrowing truths they were once again sharing with a room of strangers in search of justice and necessary reform of our Defence Forces. However, there is something altogether different about sitting in a room with women outlining their experiences of harassment, bullying, sexual assault and rape which shakes the body to its very core while staring into the whites of their eyes as they outlined their case.

Adding to the sense of anger in the room was the fact that the women in front of us had just returned from another unsatisfactory meeting with the Taoiseach that very same day. In previous days they had taken a decision to walk out in frustration from a meeting with the Minister for Defence, having felt that the promises made to them previously as to their involvement in the drafting of the terms of reference or the form of the inquiry into the abuse which they suffered would take had been reneged upon.

Sitting in that room last Monday, I and other Deputies present could not help but wonder why the architecture of our Republic always makes it so bloody difficult for those wronged while in the care or employ of the State to make right the wrongs which they have experienced once they have been brought to light.

The motion calls for the establishment of a commission of investigation into abuse, assault and rape experienced by the Women of Honour and other men and women in our Defence Forces. It is a motion supported by the very people who experienced those horrors while in the service of the State. I see no reason to debate any further avenues, which survivors have already expressed no confidence in. That we are even here today debating the reasons an internal review into abuse, sexual assault and rape is not a satisfactory avenue for justice for the people who have experienced that very same abuse raises fundamental questions for me about in whose interest we seek to govern here and what exactly it means to be a custodian of a Department in our Republic.

The women of honour we speak of today and other men and women wronged while in the Defence Forces at every level have called for a commission of investigation with statutory powers. Neither the State nor any of us in this Chamber has any legitimacy in denying them that right and insisting upon a style of inquiry in which those who seek truths have no confidence.

I am very conscious that as we speak here today there is an ongoing debate on the role, purpose and capacity of our Defence Forces. As I sat before the Women of Honour last week, I wondered why anybody would choose a life in our armed services at this moment. Women and men subsequently came to me and outlined the corrosive culture where bullying exists and where internal reviews are not done in a satisfactory way.

As a member of the Joint Committee on Foreign Affairs and Defence, I find it almost insulting that I had to leave one committee meeting on foreign affairs to come to another really important Dáil debate on an issue of incredible importance. I cannot be at both. If I, simply as a spokesperson for my party on these issues, cannot be in two places in once, how can a Minister think they can control both of those Departments when so many ongoing issues of importance are happening?

In a Republic, I fundamentally believe that institutions decay in the absence of ministerial control. Today's newspapers carry another report of a lockdown party outside McKee Barracks where a female soldier was assaulted by a military officer. We see the commission into the future of our Defence Forces finding that our Defence Forces are in disarray be that air, sea or land.

They have absolutely no capacity. Retention levels among their personnel are at an all-time low, and we must wonder why that is. I would surmise that some of the experiences we are hearing about have led to that. If nobody is in control, accountability does not exist. From the very office of the Minister right down to the rank and file, there seems to be an absence of leadership and of investment not only in the capacity of our Defence Forces but also in the morale of those we ask to stand forward and serve. All these conversations about how we defend ourselves have to start with how we look after, manage and respect the very personnel we expect to put themselves in harm's way.

I know very well, coming as I do from an inner-city environment, where many people, young fellas in particular but young girls too, aspire to be in the Defence Forces, that there is a great pride in going into our Defence Forces. People to this day are proud of that. We had a trip to Haulbowline several months ago and I went down to a naval base that is almost dystopian in the sense that it has ships that cannot go out to sea because we do not have the personnel to manage them. The members of the Navy sitting there wanting to go to sea are really proud to be in that environment and to represent and to serve our country. We talk about the overseas missions in which they have been involved, in particular in taking people from the waters. However, they also talk about the fact that they cannot provide for their families and find it difficult to pay their rent. Some of them are putting off having families because they cannot afford to do so. They talk about the conditions. I remember that a couple of years ago, when the Pope visited, armed personnel were asked to sleep on the ground. Then we go further into this and find that not only do the conditions they speak of exist but the conditions of bullying, harassment, assault in some cases and a horrific misogynistic culture still exists in the Defence Forces and nobody seems to have their foot on the brake. What I witnessed last week, staring into the eyes of the Women of Honour, was an endemic culture in our Defence Forces that is simply toxic. There are so many proud people in the Defence Forces, but the infrastructure of the State does not seem willing to support them.

Sinn Féin has tabled a motion seeking a statutory commission of investigation. We cannot deny that. It echoes the sentiments that have been expressed by people who have suffered abuse of the most horrific form in the Defence Forces. It is incumbent on us to go back to the drawing board. If people who have experienced this abuse are telling us they have no trust or confidence in the manner in which that will be reviewed, there is absolutely no legitimacy in denying them that - none.

Gino Kenny (Dublin Mid West, People Before Profit Alliance)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I am sure the Minister will agree that many of the allegations of the Women of Honour relate to incidents that are heinous in nature. Women have been subjected to gross violations. A culture of sexism is absolutely unacceptable in any workplace. This cannot be seen in isolation; it must be seen as society-wide and in the context of how sexism and misogyny circulate in society. When women come forward, they do so to challenge terrible historical and present abuses. We have seen that through the #MeToo movement, whereby women across the world challenge terrible sexism and violations committed against them.

There is an obligation on the State to investigate the allegations of the Women of Honour. That is most important. There needs to be rigorous scrutiny in that regard. That can be done only through a public inquiry. That is what the women want. They are the most important voice in this debate. The independent review, as far as I understand, cannot compel witnesses to testify - the Minister might correct me if I am wrong on that - which means that it brings on a different definition. There was no consultation with the Women of Honour on the terms of reference of the review. They were largely ignored, which is very unfortunate. The women at the heart of this discussion were not consulted on those terms of reference. The women said this review or a public inquiry does not have to take years but must have teeth and must compel people to come along to testify on the reasons they engaged in this behaviour.

When the report is finalised - I think a period of six to nine months was referred to - it will not detail any specific incidence that happened, which is again very unfortunate. It is disappointing, to say the least, that the review will not make any recommendations on the assessments to which these women were subjected. Overall, and as we have said in the past few minutes, we need a public inquiry because that will ensure robust scrutiny of what has gone on and is probably still going on in the workplaces of the armed forces. A review is just not good enough at this stage.

Mick Barry (Cork North Central, Solidarity)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

"Allegations such as those revealed at McKee Barracks should not remain within the military system to investigate ... A similar regime was operated within the [Catholic] Church in which canon law was applied in horrific cases of sex abuse. It was not tolerated there, and it should not be tolerated in the Defence Forces." Those are strong words today from Women of Honour group. As for the comparison with the Catholic Church, my understanding is that they are talking about an institution which is not covered by the civil law but has its own set of laws - Canon law for the church, military law for the Defence Forces. Those are strong words and I endorse them. I also note that we have today another case coming to light of a female apprentice in the Air Corps repeatedly being sent unsolicited lewd images from a colleague. These cases point to a rotten culture in the Defence Forces. Clearly, it is not a case of just one or two bad apples. A rigid, hierarchical command structure, low pay, poor conditions and the denial of trade union rights are a lethal combination, certainly for vulnerable women members of the forces.

An ICTU survey in 2019 found that four fifths of workers experiencing sexual harassment in the workplace do not report the incident to their employers. If that is the case in unionised workplaces, what is the position in workplaces where trade union organisation is banned and the workplace is run by command? The case of the Women of Honour needs to be treated more seriously by this Government. There must be no cover-ups. There should be a statutory inquiry with the ability to compel witnesses to attend and to give evidence and the ability to access in full all relevant documents and material.

This year, International Women's Day, 8 March, must be a day of protest and of action on the streets of Ireland to demand real action on the issue of gender violence. I hope that workplaces will walk out to show support, I hope that college students will walk out to show support and I hope that more than one or two members of the Defence Forces will join those protests on the day.

Cathal Berry (Kildare South, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I very much welcome the opportunity to contribute to this very important debate. I thank Deputy Clarke and her party for bringing it forward. It is very important matter to be discussing here this evening. I thank the Women of Honour group and the other groups that came forward to tell their harrowing stories over recent weeks and months. I have three points to make in the time allowed to me. The first is that we have to accept that we once again have a problem with sexual harassment and sexual assault in the Defence Forces. It had reduced radically in the noughties but, unfortunately, it is back. The main reason it is back is because it is now a problem across society. If it is in society, it is in the Defence Forces because the Defence Forces are a microcosm of that society. It is in most workplaces in the country. We even had our own difficulties here in the parliamentary community last year.

I will identify a couple of risk factors. Obviously, there is no excuse whatsoever for sexual harassment or sexual assault but, if we are to look at improving and targeting particular areas to stamp it out once again, we should consider this list of risk factors. The first is accommodation. It is very unusual in an Irish workplace to have accommodation, beds and ablutions on site. It is an area we have to focus on in order to stamp this out. The second relates to alcohol. It is very unusual to have alcohol in a workplace. I have been on a number of overseas tours of duty myself and, when there is alcohol, there is trouble. The best trips are those without it. I commend the recent decision to make the United Nations Interim Force in Lebanon, UNIFIL, trip alcohol-free for Irish troops. That is a very good and positive step. It is something that should be considered for all overseas trips at this stage. Another risk factor is that women are very much in the minority. Only 6% of members of the Defence Forces are female. That needs to improve. A critical mass is needed so that they have supports available and are not seen as a minority group. The extended periods of time spent away from home are also a risk factor.

The most important and biggest risk factor I have identified over the last ten years is the major upheaval the Defence Forces have been through in that time. It is not an excuse in any shape or form but it is a contributing factor. Many seasoned commanders and many seasoned, experienced and highly qualified enlisted leaders who would have properly supervised their troops and pointed out where they were going wrong and any inappropriate behaviours and attitudes have left. That critical piece is missing. The turnover rate in the Defence Forces is approximately 10%, a rate that shows dysfunction. Statistically, almost the entire population of the Defence Forces is renewed every ten years. There are people in the organisation who are strangers because they have just come in and there is very little mentoring or supervision.

How do we address this? I am in favour of the four Ps - perhaps Deputy Clarke has heard of them - of prevention, protection, prosecution and policy intervention. The prevention piece is very important. I presume and hope there is to be an awareness campaign within the Defence Forces as soon as possible to change the attitudes and behaviours of a minority, which need to be addressed. From a protection point of view, there needs to be safe areas in military installations. From a prosecution point of view, we need a dedicated subunit within the Military Police Corps to investigate specific sexual harassment and sexual assault cases. On the policy intervention piece, we need to review our policies to make sure they are in accordance with the best international standards and are effective on the ground.

The Commission on the Defence Forces is reporting tomorrow. That document needs to be implemented as soon as possible. From what I have heard and what I have read in publicly available reports, I understand that it calls for a significant increase in the number of women in the Defence Forces from the current 6% to something like 25%, 30% or whatever it says. That is the kind of intervention that is required to make sure that women are not a minority in their own organisation and to make sure they know they belong.

I am conscious of the clock. To repeat myself, we all need to fully accept that there is an issue in the Defence Forces in respect of sexual harassment and sexual assault. There is hope because the Defence Forces have improved in the past. The issue was almost entirely eradicated in the late noughties but, unfortunately, it is back. We have to do everything in our power to ensure that our armed forces display the standards, ethics and morals we expect of the armed forces of this type of country.

Peadar Tóibín (Meath West, Aontú)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I am disappointed that the Minister for Defence is not here. Perhaps there is a reasonable excuse for that. Maybe he has an important job to do. However, this is a very important debate and one of enormous gravity. It is a debate on a matter the Minister is directly responsible for so it is disappointing that he is not here.

The Women of Honour are simply women who wanted to work in the service of the State. These women put their lives on the line and at risk for the rest of the citizens of this country. Shockingly, their service was met with assault, rape, abuse, bullying and discrimination in a State service. Given that their employer was the Government itself, it is incredible that this was allowed to happen. When they sought justice within their employment location, justice was blocked and prevented. On many occasions, instead of the perpetrators of the abuse being punished, the women themselves were punished while seeking justice. It appears that there was a culture within the Defence Forces which sought to protect the organisation against attack. Where have we seen that before? Unfortunately, practically every organisation instinctively feels the need to protect itself from those who are seeking justice or reform of the organisation.

These women were forced to break their anonymity and to tell their absolutely harrowing stories. It is extremely hard for anyone to open up publicly about the shocking wrongs done to them. I give full credit to these women for the work they have done. This country owes a serious debt of gratitude to those women for what they are seeking to do and the manner in which they have sought to do it. Some of these women have taken on the equivalent of an unpaid full-time job to achieve reform in the Defence Forces. In case the Government has not noticed, that is its job, for which its members are very well paid. I also give credit to Katie Hannon for her documentary, which first gave voice to these women on the national airwaves.

The Women of Honour group met with the Minister for Defence, Deputy Coveney, a number of months ago and he promised to finally listen to them. He also committed to giving them a role in the path to justice. He stated that he would facilitate their shaping of the terms of reference of any investigation that happened. I have worked closely with the Women of Honour over recent months and I was quite shocked that this was the Minister's response. I was pleasantly surprised that the Government was doing this because, in my experience, governments do not do that. Governments normally protect the organisation that is under strain. For decades, governments have protected organisation after organisation against those who have sought to reform them. However, my cynical distrust of the Government has proven correct.

In practically a mirror image of what is happening to the women involved in the CervicalCheck scandal, Ministers have spoken in the media and in this Dáil in measured tones about their shock at what is happening to people in this country. They have said that they will root out the causes of the difficulties and make sure they never happen again. However, similarly to the 300 women affected by the CervicalCheck scandal who find themselves having to go before the High Court to seek justice, the Women of Honour have been let down with regard to the promises given to them by this Government. The Government's words in respect of the Women of Honour have proven meaningless.

The Minister’s credibility stands in stark contrast with the actions of the Women of Honour. His credibility has been hammered. He has reneged on the promise of a fully independent and external commission of investigation into bullying, discrimination and sexual violence in the Defence Forces. He has also reneged on his promise to tackle the systemic resistance within the Defence Forces which prevents victims and survivors from achieving justice. I ask the Minister of State to make sure we draw a line and to ensure that Ministers' actions match their words and that the Government provides justice for what probably would be the first time in the history of our governments.

I ask that the Minister of State go back to the well, speak to these women again, allow them to have influence over the terms of reference and ensure they are provided with what they deserve, namely, a full commission of investigation into what is happening.

Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I call Deputy Berry.

Cathal Berry (Kildare South, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I have already spoken.

Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Okay. I call Deputy Michael Healy-Rae.

Michael Healy-Rae (Kerry, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I sincerely thank Deputy Clarke and Sinn Féin for bringing this important motion before the House. The Minister for Defence, Deputy Coveney, has established the judge-led independent review, but this is not good enough because it is not what the Women of Honour group wants. The group has criticised this approach and said that such investigations into alleged sexual assaults "still remain to be dealt with within the military system". It has further said:

It is time for an independent public statutory inquiry and for the civil and criminal laws of the State to be applied to the Defence Forces .... The national laws which apply to the rest of the citizens of our State should apply to the men and women of our Defence Forces.

The Women of Honour group, which comprises women whose careers in the Defence Forces have been blighted by abuse, has stated that the recent case at McKee Barracks, and other cases like it, are simply unacceptable. The group has repeated its rejection of the Minister’s proposal to establish a judge-led independent review to look at issues related to sexual misconduct, bullying, harassment and discrimination in the Defence Forces. It has further stated:

Military police, in reality, are subject to the chain of command and act on behalf of the Defence Forces, investigate internal matters and then send a file to the Director of Military Prosecutions. It remains the case that the military legal system applies military law to address matters - of the military, by the military and for the military.

The group has also said that as well it being time for an independent public statutory inquiry, it is time for civil and criminal laws to be applied to the Defence Forces. It believes that "the frequency of [these] dreadful allegations" has resulted in "a toxic culture of [the] acceptance of cover-ups and victim blaming", which should of course not be tolerated. The group has further stated that the situation "merits nothing less than a public statutory investigative process as the first step towards the radical change needed".

Michael Collins (Cork South West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The members of the Women of Honour group must be respected after years of abuse in the Defence Forces and a full commission of investigation must be set up. These women were treated shockingly. A proper investigation is required. It should be one where no areas are hidden. A situation where people cannot get the truth out should not be allowed. To be quite honest, this matter sounds as bad as it gets. We are talking about people who work hard in their jobs and then to think that this type of abuse is going on. While this case is slightly different, it is unfortunate that it is not the first time that treatment of the Defence Forces has reached rock bottom. In July 2019, the Minister of State was recorded as saying that "morale [was] at an all-time low" under the then Minister of State with responsibility for defence, Deputy Paul Kehoe. I refer to it being suggested that issues concerning pay, recruitment and retention were being shockingly handled by the then Minister of State.

That was scandalous, but these current public allegations must be dealt with immediately. I call on the Minister of State to do everything in his power to ensure that a full commission of investigation is set up. There should be no kicking of the can down the road as before in respect of this and other issues in the Defence Forces. This issue must be dealt with and dealt with quickly out of respect for the Women of Honour and the way they were treated. These are women who, like everybody else, go to work in the morning and expect some little bit of respect. Unfortunately, that was not afforded to them. They are now having to fight again, this time against the Government, which, in their view, is trying to set up something which is not going to bring about a full and clear investigation. I fully support the Women of Honour group, as does the Rural Independent Group. I ask the Minister of State to step back from the direction he is going and to perhaps sit down with the members of the Women of Honour group and come to a full agreement.

Danny Healy-Rae (Kerry, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I also thank Deputy Clarke and Sinn Féin for tabling this motion. For far too long, the members of the Defence Forces have not received recognition for the work they do. We have only to look back on all the men and women from our Army who went to undertake peacekeeping duties in Lebanon and other places and where they put their lives in danger. For far too long, we heard that they were not being paid properly, had to sleep in cars and were getting income supplement payments. That kind of a situation which saw people working on behalf of the State not being paid properly and having to get an income supplement was disgraceful.

In this case, the Women of Honour group issued a statement on Sunday, 6 February in which they said that the current review proposed by the Minister, Deputy Coveney "will be ineffective and powerless to get to the real heart of the issues". The group was commenting following reports of military police investigating an army officer. That is like putting the fox in charge of the chickens. I ask the Minister of State to have an independent public statutory inquiry and for the civil and criminal laws of the State to be applied to the Defence Forces, and especially in the cases of these women.

Carol Nolan (Laois-Offaly, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

In November last year, I sought assurances directly from the Taoiseach in this Chamber to ensure there would be an independent statutory inquiry into the allegations raised by the Women of Honour group. The serious nature of these allegations deserves nothing less than such a statutory independent inquiry. That is why I feel it is of paramount importance that that is done and that we get to the bottom of these serious allegations.

This is an issue that I have pursued and I submitted parliamentary questions on it. I was informed that efforts to establish an independent review were at an "advanced stage" and that the issues would be examined as part of the report of the Commission on Defence Forces. It was only subsequent to that reply, however, that the Women of Honour campaign made clear to me that the independent review was proceeding without anyone having consulted and, indeed, without the victims, serving and retired, having been consulted. That makes no sense. We must ensure we have the voices of those women at the centre of this independent statutory inquiry.

That is what needs to happen. It makes no sense to move ahead with any sort of inquiry without consulting the parties concerned. The decision to do so was deeply regrettable, even if further meetings have taken place since then. We already have reports from the independent monitoring group, IMG, and from the external advisory committee on the Defence Forces. The women affected now need decisive action, firm Government commitments and, more importantly, accountability. I have submitted more parliamentary questions on this issue to the Taoiseach and to the Minister for Defence. Unfortunately, the responses will not be processed until this evening. I assure the Women of Honour group, however, that it has my full support for its campaign.

Richard O'Donoghue (Limerick County, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The members of the Women of Honour group say they are not resigned to there being a judge-led review into the allegations of sexual abuse and bullying in the Defence Forces. Our laws need to change to protect our people in the Defence Forces against inappropriate behaviour. This is surely every person’s right. Every member of the Defence Forces has the right to be treated with respect, equality and dignity and to carry out his or her duties in a safe workplace, which is underpinned by a culture of zero tolerance for any kind of bullying, discrimination or harassment.

These women in the Women of Honour group are part of our front-line services. We talked about the front-line workers in the health services before, including our nurses and student nurses. Again, when it came to the student nurses, I regard it as discrimination that the Government did not pay them. We now have the members of the Women of Honour group, front-line service members in our Defence Forces, and the Government will not bring them in and ask them their side of the story to get the truth. The best way to get the truth is to ask the people themselves. These members of the Women of Honour are a part of our Defence Forces. They have grave concerns regarding irregularities.

They need to be listened to in order to get the right sense of what happened and to bring to account the people who had anything to do with it. There cannot be anybody saved from these women's testimonies. Nobody can be saved. Everybody has to be held to account who had anything to do with this.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I thank Sinn Féin and, in particular, Deputy Clarke for tabling the motion, which I have no difficulty in supporting. It is disappointing that the Government has tabled an amendment. I thought sense would have prevailed and that we would make language mean something in that we heard what the Women of Honour whom I met last week told us. I thank Deputy Tóibín for organising that. We heard them, we believed them, and then we proceeded to ignore them. That is what we are doing here.

In the first instance I want to deal with something Deputy Berry said. He is still in the Chamber. He talked about the progress that was made in the 2000s. I have to take issue with him on that unless he can show me the evidence. I would like to know what analysis exists on the number of men and women who left the Defence Forces in that time due to sexual harassment, assault or a prevailing culture of fear of reprisals. It is a legitimate question to ask. What analysis has been done on the downgrading of accusations of serious sexual assault to minor breaches of discipline under a particular section of the Defence Acts? How many persons have had such minor charges laid against them after being accused of serious assault and have then been transferred or relocated? These are essential questions if we are to take at face value what the Deputy said.

I am not personalising this in respect of the Deputy. It is just that he highlighted this. When he said, and he is correct, that there has been a decline, what he is saying really if he looks at the facts is that there has been a decline in the number of investigations. In the 1980s, there were 54; in the 1990s, 35; in the 2000s, 20; and in the 2010s, 17. The number of investigations has reduced but we have to ask why. Were the women or, indeed, men afraid of reprisals? What are the reasons? What analysis has been done? It is a dangerous conclusion to come to in light of the ongoing reports of further allegations against women. I take issue with that completely. I would also like the Minister of State for clarification. I think some of those figures came from an article in the Sunday Independentor Irish Independenttowards the end of last year, based on a report that was given to the Minister. Are any of the Ministers of State present aware of that? Have they the report to hand? Could they enlighten me? Is that where all of these figures have been set out? What conclusions were drawn from them? Were they the conclusions Deputy Berry is entitled to draw or are there other conclusions that should be drawn from them if we are going to learn?

I have the greatest of respect for the judge. She is an independent, female judge with lots of experience and she has shown her mettle. If she can rise above the pathetic terms of reference, fair play to her. Fair play to her if she can produce a report within the time allowed, which seems to change depending on which Minister is talking - a draft one at six months, something else at nine months, something else at 12 months. If that can be done within the terms of reference I will take my hat off and I will be the first to apologise here. We have the three overall aims of the independent review, which I have quoted before and will not quote again. Then we have 13 terms of reference and no powers whatsoever to compel anyone or seek any documentation. I will come back to the Women of Honour; should the men and women decide not to participate who should go forward, the others, if they decide not to, that is it. Goodbye. There is nothing that can be done about that. Term of reference No. 13, at the bottom, finally refers to historical matters, "to advise whether further work is required to examine the issues of an historical nature and to make any recommendations regarding how this might pursued". Of course, that is No. 13. Perhaps the Ministers of State will tell me the recommendations are not ranked but it is interesting that it is coming last. It is interesting that the time is a movable feast.

Most significant and beyond interesting is that the women who had the courage to come forward are not going to participate, which makes the whole inquiry very difficult. That might be an understatement. If they are not going to participate and they are responsible for highlighting all of this, it begs the question as to how it can work. The very terms of reference, if the Ministers of State look at them, state that they are going to examine the policies, practices and procedures on the ground to see if they align with dignity. We know well they do not align with dignity because we have had a whole series of allegations of sexual harassment and sexual assault down to rape. Now we are going to look at the policies. We are not going to look at what the women and men have told us about what happened to them. We believe them. The three monkeys come to mind - hear no evil, see no evil, speak no evil - but do the evil and have no accountability.

Forgive me for my cynicism. Before I speak, myself and my assistants in my office usually try to look, study and examine the necessary documentation. I have done that. When I look back to see if my cynicism and my questions are justified, going back to Tom Clonan in 2000, I see what happened to that man. His research was discredited. When he stuck to his guns and the discrediting programme did not work, a review was set up which I will come back to. Subsequently Tom Clonan, I understand, said he understood and believed that the changes had occurred, in good faith. Then I realise he had been duped. Maybe that is too strong a word. Maybe his belief that systems could change was not based on reality. My experience in a number of different roles is that institutions do not change. If institutions changed, we would not have needed Katie Hannon's documentary on RTÉ or the women's courage in coming forward. That is what has led to this. To add insult to that, we do not allow them to take part in the discussion on the terms of reference. The Minister of State spoke about having met them on a number of occasions, or the Taoiseach and the Minister, which was very nice. The important thing was to have them engage in the terms of reference, which did not happen.

Let us look back. We have Tom Clonan's research. A number of his findings have been cited in respect of the situation at the time. "Women in combat: The status and roles assigned to female personnel." This featured anonymised interviews with 60 female officers, 59 of whom suffered abuse or discrimination and 12 of whom said they had been sexually assaulted or raped. This also included bullying and sexual harassment including rape and so on. In 2019, Tom Clonan said that he believed the Defence Forces had taken it on board. That was done some time after 2000. Clearly they had not. Following his research in 2002, an independent review panel was set up. There was one external woman on it out of five people. It was set up to review existing policies and procedures. That was 20 years ago; we were reviewing existing policies and procedures and now we are going to set up another independent review to review it.

Following on from that, we had a monitoring committee, which was excellent. The Minister for Defence seems to misunderstand what a monitoring committee does. It produced three reports. On the last occasion in 2014 it made three specific recommendations. No Minister here today has referred to that. The Minister used words to the effect that it did not do its job because the culture had not changed. The culture had not changed because the Ministers over the years had not done their job. Army management had not done its job. The only ones who had done their job were the members of the monitoring committee that highlighted what still needed to be done. What do we do? We abolished it and did not re-establish it, notwithstanding that Mark Mellett wrote to the Minister of State with responsibility for defence at the time, in January 2019, asking for it to be re-established. At that point they were investigating 15 cases of alleged misconduct by personnel in 2019.

I am nearing the end of my time. I am speaking on the basis of having done research and thought about this subject and out of respect for the Women of Honour group, whose members have come forward in this public way to tell of the most horrific abuse. We get a review of policies and procedures to see if they align. I cannot imagine how more insulting it could get. At the very least, I would have expected a detailed speech on the actions to date following on from the various reports, why the independent monitoring committee was not renewed and why the recommendations were not acted on.

Josepha Madigan (Dublin Rathdown, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I thank my colleague, the Minister of State, Deputy Chambers, for presenting the Government's opening statement. Unfortunately, due to a change in times by the Business Committee, my colleague, the Minister, Deputy Coveney, is unable to present the closing statement. He sends his apologies to the House.

On behalf of the Minister, I thank Deputy Clarke for raising this matter under Private Members' business. This discussion is important and deals with serious issues that are a priority for the Minister for Defence. I assure the House that the Government is committed to providing a safe place of work for members of the Defence Forces, with a zero-tolerance approach to unacceptable behaviour, while also examining ways of addressing allegations of an historical nature.

I acknowledge the strong views of a number of colleagues in the House, including calls for a statutory inquiry. I echo the Minister of State, Deputy Chambers's comments that the Women of Honour have displayed tremendous courage in sharing their experiences and that the matters they have raised are serious. I also extend my appreciation to the members of the Men and Women of Honour group for coming forward to share their experiences with the Minister, departmental officials and, more recently, the Taoiseach.

I appreciate the references in the motion to the legal and moral obligations to all members of the Defence Forces. It is for this reason that the Minister is proceeding with this independent review. My colleague has an immediate duty of care to serving members of the Defence Forces to ensure that they can carry out their duties in a workplace that is safe and has a culture underpinned by dignity and equality. This is what the review group is currently examining and why the independent review is so important. Recent media coverage of an alleged incident last year has only reinforced the thinking on this.

In taking this first critical step, the Minister has the full support of serving personnel and other stakeholders, including the Men and Women of Honour group. It is what they need and expect him to deliver. Their views and the views of the representative associations have informed the terms of reference. In those terms, my colleague has specified that the Department of Defence will be included in the scope of the review group's work. This was a particular request of the Women of Honour group. I do not accept, therefore, that the terms of reference fail to recognise the seriousness of this issue. They offer sufficient scope to determine the scale and depth of the problems across the Defence Forces. The terms of reference are wide ranging and provide the review group with the scope to examine the end-to-end process for making a complaint of unacceptable behaviour and to assess whether there are barriers to serving personnel making complaints and fully and actively engaging in the process. The review group will also examine the extent to which reprisal, the fear of reprisal or the existence of a culture of silence or complicity may act as a barrier to reporting or investigating as well as any indication of inconsistencies or challenges in the application of policies.

In addition to incorporating a number of views from stakeholders, the independent review's terms of reference are based to a large extent on those developed by the departments of defence in Canada, the UK and the USA where similar serious workplace issues were identified to those encountered in the Irish Defence Forces. The Attorney General's office provided the Minister with advice on a range of matters, including the terms. My colleague was also advised on this approach by the Dublin Rape Crisis Centre. I am fully satisfied, therefore, that the terms are sufficiently broad to allow the independent review group members significant latitude to explore the areas that they need to explore and to make recommendations for future actions. I should add that the secretariat function will operate independently of the Department of Defence under the direction of the membership of the review group. The review group is led by the recently retired High Court judge, Ms Bronagh O'Hanlon, who will bring valuable independent, external and unbiased expertise to this body of work.

My colleague has set an ambitious timetable for the review group. He looks forward to receiving the interim report in six months. The Minister and the Taoiseach have confirmed with the Women of Honour group that the Government is not ruling out an inquiry in future.

Former members of the Defence Forces have been incredibly courageous in coming forward to share their experiences. The allegations of an historical nature are not being ignored, but we have to take this first step. The independent review group has been specifically asked to consider if a further body of work will be required. If such a recommendation is made, the Government will consider it.

The interim supports that the Minister put in place last October, to which my colleague, the Minister of State, referred, are there for people who have been affected by these issues. The confidential contact person and the 24-7 Inspire counselling service are important support mechanisms and they are being utilised. In addition, the personnel support service, PSS, within the Defence Forces assists members and their immediate families through the provision of information and advice on areas, including stress management, counselling and referral options.

The serious issues raised by the Women of Honour and serving members will not be resolved overnight. It will take time, but we have made a start. While I understand that the Women of Honour are disappointed that a statutory inquiry is not being established at this time, I hope that they understand the need for this independent review as a first step in meeting our immediate obligations to serving members.

The terms of reference provide that submissions can be made to the review group and that former and serving members of the Defence Forces may engage with it and share their experiences. I hope that all stakeholders, including the Women of Honour group, will avail of this opportunity and engage with the process. Their contribution will be important in moving this forward.

I echo what my colleague, the Minister of State, said in his contribution. Those who may have suffered serious wrongs of a criminal nature, whether recent or historical, should report their concerns to An Garda Síochána, which has the lawful authority, skills and resources to investigate such matters. I strongly urge anyone who may have been subject to any such alleged abuse or harassment to seek professional help and guidance, which is available from State agencies such as the HSE or from registered charities that specialise in this area.

I reiterate in the strongest possible terms the Minister, Deputy Coveney's commitment, and that of the Government, to addressing these issues in the most comprehensive and efficient way possible. I assure colleagues that the Department of Defence and the Defence Forces will engage with the independent review group in respect of their respective roles and functions now that the review is under way. Therefore, I ask the House to allow the independent review group the time to undertake this important work and to support the Government's amendment.

Ruairi Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I do not doubt that the Minister has determined to look into a system to deal with these complaints and the long-term issues that have been highlighted by the Women of Honour, but the fact remains that we in this State have a long history of failing those who have suffered abuse, of not learning from the past and of not putting in place systems that work.

The criterion that matters in this situation is the statement by Women of Honour that this approach will not cut the mustard. Like many others, I commend the Women of Honour on their bravery in highlighting these issues, which have lasted for many years and have not been addressed. Regardless of whether the Government or the Department had intentions of dealing with this and putting in place a system that was fit for purpose, we have not gone far enough. This is like some of the conversations the Dáil has had in recent years about historical abuse by the State and how the State is still failing to do that piece of work whereby the people who have suffered such abuse are taken across the line to a system that is fit for purpose, works for them and can provide them with the answers they require.

That they have not added their voices to that of those who may believe what has been offered can do the business it is meant to speaks for itself. The Women of Honour are the people the Government needed to sign off on this, but they have not done so. That is where most of the Irish people will lie in regard to this issue.

We all accept the need for a proper system for complaints against those who have engaged in sexual harassment or abuse so people will face the repercussions necessary. We need to ensure in the longer term that this work is done; however, first and foremost, we are starting from a bad place in the sense that what has been proposed is not being accepted by Women of Honour.

We have all engaged in the wider conversation on violence, abuse and the issues with which women across society must deal. The problem was highlighted to us by the dreadful murder of Ashling Murphy. Reports on other alleged attacks of women have also entered the public domain. We are listening more keenly now. I have been always aware of the work done locally by the likes of Women's Aid and Rape Crisis Centre North East but I am more keenly aware of it now. I am aware of their underfunding and of services that are not fit to deal with the issues that arise. If we are truly serious about this entire matter and wish to deal with it, we will have to carry out a needs analysis, have the genuine conversations and ensure we provide resources.

Whether we are talking about the Defence Forces or wider society, we all accept that we have to do specific work that involves everyone questioning themselves regarding how they operate, what they call out and what they have failed to call out to date, thus creating a culture that does not allow for any gender-based violence, harassment or abuse, or any such behaviours that are utterly unacceptable to the vast majority. We just need to ensure we leave no space for these behaviours in society.

As regards the issue in question and Women of Honour, what the latter deserve and what they are getting are not the same. They have been failed by the State over and over. They are not happy with what is being put on offer at this point. Therefore, the Minister needs to re-engage and get their endorsement. That is an absolute requirement.

Sorca Clarke (Longford-Westmeath, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Will the Minister of State, Deputy Chambers, confirm whether he is here as Minister of State at the Department of Defence?

Jack Chambers (Dublin West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Yes.

Sorca Clarke (Longford-Westmeath, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

When he referred in his opening statement to meetings he and his colleagues have had with stakeholders, was he doing so as Minister of State at the Department of Defence?

Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Questions are not permitted.

Sorca Clarke (Longford-Westmeath, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The reason I ask is that in a reply to a parliamentary question by my colleague Deputy Ó Snodaigh, Deputy Coveney, who is the Minister for Defence, stated, "No functions of the Minister for Defence have been delegated to the Minister of State and full responsibility for defence policies, the Department of Defence and the Defence Forces remains with Minister Coveney who will continue to represent Defence at Cabinet." That is further evidence of the lack of seriousness in the Government's approach to this issue. That is deeply disappointing.

The Minister of State said in his opening statement that the Minister, Deputy Coveney, has an immediate obligation to serving members to ensure the workplace is safe and that there is zero tolerance of unacceptable behaviour in the Defence Forces. If the Minister is so concerned with the speed of change regarding that duty of care, does he not see that the commencement of an effective and accountable statutory inquiry would lead to an immediate change of behaviour, meaning the culture of unaccountability effectively would be over? Does he not see that the resistance to the inquiry might embolden those who behave unacceptably, based on the perception that the Minister somehow has their back.

I take issue with the fact that the Government amendment states that "unfortunately the systems, policies and workplace culture in the Defence Forces have not, and are not, serving all personnel well". It is not unfortunate that somebody may be raped, that somebody may be harassed and that there are women in the position of Ms Diane Byrne, who ended up taking the State to court over the way she was treated when she was pregnant as a serving member of the Defence Forces; it is an absolute disgrace. So, too, is what happened to Ms Yvonne O'Rourke, who had to take the State to the Workplace Relations Commission and who won in December 2020 after years of battling. At that point, Mr. Bonnlander, from the Workplace Relations Commission, stated, "It beggars belief that women should have been serving in the Irish Defence Forces for decades, without the Forces' systems and instruction ever having been appropriately updated to ensure they reflect anti-discrimination law as it applies to pregnancy and maternity." Where was the urgency there? I have asked the Minister. Distinct recommendations were made by the Workplace Relations Commission, one of which was to make a payment to Ms O'Rourke for the delay in the investigation and hearing. The Defence Forces did not withdraw their jurisdictional objections earlier than the closing arguments at the hearing. That is not unfortunate; that is an absolute disgrace.

The Workplace Relations Commission ordered the Defence Forces to carry out measures to combat pregnancy-related and other forms of discrimination, with all such work to be complete by December 2021. In March 2021, I asked the Minister about this. I was told it was currently being considered. In September 2021, I asked again and was told the directions were being implemented by the military authorities. Therefore, the arguments of concern and wanting to see systemic change immediately for serving members simply do not hold up to scrutiny. The Minister of State knows as well as we do on this side of the House that the only genuinely effective mechanism to bring about the systemic change needed is a statutory inquiry. Failing to deliver on that is failing to meet not only the needs of the Women of Honour but also the needs and expectations of those who serve today, be it in the Army, Naval Service or Air Corps. It will fail to serve them in the future. That is truly not what the Minister wants as a legacy. It is a disgrace.

Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

In accordance with Standing Order 80(2), the division is postponed until the weekly division time tomorrow evening.