Joan Collins (Dublin South Central, Independents 4 Change)
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The Minister of State is aware of this issue, given that contact was made with her this year when she advised that it was a matter for the Minister for Transport and that all correspondence should be sent to him.

I will provide the background. The carriages are a regular sight in and around the St. Stephen's Green area as well as St. James's Gate. In May 2019, carriage drivers led a convoy to Leinster House to ask that new by-laws be made in respect of drivers in the capital. Since 2018, Dublin City Council has not issued licences for carriage drivers, which would allow them to operate commercially. This is due to older Victorian laws - the Dublin Carriage Act 1853 and the Dublin Amended Carriage Acts 1854 and 1855 - that state that the responsibility lies with the police force. These need to be repealed. In 2011, Dublin City Council took over responsibility for the licensing of horse-drawn carriage operators and drivers from the Garda Carriage Office. In late 2018, however, the council was advised that the legal basis for its by-laws regulating horse-drawn carriages was uncertain. As a result, it was determined that the council's 2011 by-laws on the control of horse-drawn carriages were not valid. In late 2019, the Attorney General confirmed that Dublin City Council was not empowered to regulate horse-drawn carriages because the 1853 to 1855 Acts had previously vested the power to regulate horse-drawn carriages in Dublin in the Commissioner of the Dublin Metropolitan Police, to which An Garda Síochána is the successor. The Attorney General advised that legislation had to be introduced. Approval was given in December 2019 for the general scheme of a Bill empowering all local authorities to regulate this area.

I have looked through the legislative programme for this year.

There is nothing in it with regard to this issue which has been ongoing since 2018. This is a serious issue. If a tourist or other person gets knocked down in an accident involving one of these uninsured horse-drawn carriages, he or she will be completely at a loss and in a difficult situation.

The former Minister, Mr. Ross, received approval from the then Cabinet to draft a Bill. Where is it? As I said, this is a serious issue. In 2022, we will have been waiting four years for this legislation. With the lifting of Covid restrictions, we will see an increase in tourists. Operators who were previously licensed want horse-drawn carriages to be covered by a system under which they must be registered and display licensing plates, insurance discs and so on. Will the Minister of State give a clear indication as to when legislation to deal with this matter will be introduced because Dublin City Council needs to be able to move now to introduce the by-laws that are needed?

Hildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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I am taking this matter on behalf of my colleague, the Minister for Transport, Deputy Ryan. I thank Deputy Collins for raising the matter of the regulation of horse-drawn carriages for hire and reward within the Dublin area. The Minister has asked me to use this opportunity to outline how this issue came about and to set out the work under way with Dublin City Council to resolve this issue.

As stated by the Deputy, in February 2011, Dublin City Council took over from the Garda Carriage Office responsibility for the licensing of horse-drawn carriage operators and drivers. This was achieved through by-laws enacted under Part 19 of the Local Government Act 2001 which provides a general power to local authorities to make by-laws relating to its property or services or to regulate matters of local concern. It is under this Act that local authorities can choose, using by-laws, to regulate horse-drawn carriages that operate for hire or reward within their functional areas. These by-laws allow relevant local authorities to set their own rules and stipulations to govern such operations.

In 2018, Dublin City Council became aware that, specifically in the context of Dublin, the legal basis for making by-laws to regulate horse-drawn carriages was uncertain. Local authorities can only use their general by-law making powers for purposes not covered elsewhere in legislation. However, the power to regulate the business of horse-drawn carriages for hire or reward in Dublin was vested exclusively under the Dublin Carriage Acts 1853 to 1855 in the Dublin Metropolitan Police, the predecessor of An Garda Síochána. This is the legislation which gives rise to the lacuna mentioned by the Deputy.

Officials in the Department of Transport, in conjunction with colleagues in other Departments and the Office of the Attorney General, investigated the issue in 2019 and determined that the Dublin Carriage Acts would need to be repealed and replaced with legislation that affirms the power of local authorities to regulate this activity. Accordingly, in December 2019, the Government approved a proposal to draft a general scheme to make the necessary repeals and assert the power of local authorities in this area.

I should note that this issue relates solely to the power of Dublin City Council to regulate and license the business of horse-drawn carriages. I understand that equine welfare issues are often raised in conjunction with this topic, but I must clarify that equine welfare issues are entirely separate from the licensing lacuna. Animal welfare issues are a matter for the Minister for Agriculture, Food and the Marine. The provisions of the Animal Health and Welfare Act 2013, which relate to the welfare of and cruelty to animals, as well as the provisions of the Control of Horses Act 1996, continue to apply irrespective of whether a licensing regime for horse-drawn carriages is in place.

Noting that, it had been hoped originally that the licensing issue could have been progressed during 2020. Unfortunately, this was not possible due to the onset of the Covid-19 pandemic and the need to prioritise work associated with the national response to that pandemic. However, I am pleased to report on behalf of Minister, Deputy Ryan, that work on the development of the general scheme resumed this year. Officials in the Department of Transport are working closely with key stakeholders, including Dublin City Council, on the development of the legislation.

I recognise that some here today are frustrated by the time taken to resolve this particular issue in Dublin. However, the development of legislation of this nature, particularly when it involves the repeal of legislation which predates the foundation of the State, is complex and technical in nature and it can be quite difficult to give precise timelines for completion. It is also important to ensure nothing in the forthcoming legislative proposals inadvertently disturbs existing regimes elsewhere in the country, such as the long-established regime for jarveys in Killarney and around Killarney National Park. Nevertheless, I have been advised this work is progressing at pace as the number of legal issues left to be resolved is narrowed. Once these issues have been fully clarified, it would be the hope of the Minister, Deputy Ryan, that a general scheme would be published without delay. Naturally, the Minister will be in touch with the Chair of the Oireachtas Committee on Transport and Communications once the general scheme is published with a view to arranging pre-legislative scrutiny and to proceed with the resolution of this legal lacuna once and for all.

Joan Collins (Dublin South Central, Independents 4 Change)
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I welcome that work on this matter is progressing. I have checked the legislative programme for 2021 and there is nothing within it in regard to this issue, which would indicate it is not being prepared. Will the Minister of State give me a date for when a general scheme of a Bill will be forthcoming?

At this stage, we are in a very difficult situation in that anyone over the age of 16 years can operate a horse-drawn carriage for hire or reward. There is no regulation, no inspections for insurance, no vehicle roadworthiness testing, no Garda vetting, no pre-checks to determine if a horse is suitable for the job and no requirement to display a licence plate in order that a member of the public can report an incident. The Garda does not have the power to do anything except through the Road Traffic Acts, which is very difficult. We know for definite there are criminals operating some of these carriages. The system is very loose in regard to those who were previously licensed and who want legislation introduced so that they can operate in a safe environment and to ensure they are well covered.

Operators who were previously licensed are keen to see this area regulated. They were keen to link-in with the former Minister and to get involved in the discussions, but they appear to have been excluded from the current process. In the previous Dáil, former Deputy Maureen O'Sullivan, raised this issue many times. I have read over the many questions she put down at that time.

I welcome that work is being progressed. Will the Minister of State give me a more definite timeline for the introduction of the legislation and will the Minister encourage the involvement in that process of those who were previously licensed?

Hildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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I will convey what the Deputy stated here to the Minister, Deputy Ryan. On the process, once the general scheme is published, the Minister will engage with the Joint Committee on Transport and Communications in regard to commencement of the pre-legislative scrutiny. I want again to underline the Government's commitment to resolving this issue and empowering Dublin City Council to regulate horse-drawn carriages on the same basis as every other local authority. I am happy to confirm to the House work on the development of legislation in this area is no longer on hold. It is progressing in close co-operation with Dublin City Council. I will ask the Minister to come back to the Deputy on the issue of wider engagement around the process.