Dáil debates

Wednesday, 22 July 2020

Ceisteanna (Atógáil) - Questions (Resumed)

National Economic and Social Council

1:20 pm

Photo of Mary Lou McDonaldMary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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2. To ask the Taoiseach if he will report on the work of his Department with the National Economic and Social Council. [16817/20]

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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The National Economic and Social Council, NESC, is an independent statutory agency operating under the aegis of my Department. The council analyses and reports on strategic policy matters relevant to Ireland's economic, social, environmental and sustainable development.

The NESC is a valuable forum where economic, social and environmental issues can be discussed between a variety of actors and Government Departments. The council's work focuses on the strategic and longer-term view and its current work programme comprises the following themes: transition teams, addressing employment vulnerability as part of a just transition in Ireland; land use, land value and urban development; welfare and employment; and climate change.

In addition, to date in 2020 and in response to the Covid-19 crisis, the NESC secretariat has published seven working papers on Covid-19 across a range of issues including the implications of Covid-19 on housing in Ireland; protecting enterprises, employment and incomes; and progressing sustainability in the context of Covid-19.

Future Jobs Ireland 2019 also included a request for NESC to develop policy recommendations for how to manage the impact of economic transition on vulnerable workers and sectors. The research, published in March this year, provided a forward look at the economy in the context of a transition to a low-carbon and more digital future. The council has identified recommendations which will help Ireland address challenges and embrace the significant opportunities.

I present council reports to Government prior to publication or prior to laying them before the Hoses, as in the case of the annual reports. To date in 2020, the council has published one report addressing employment vulnerability as part of a just transition in Ireland.

I appoint members to the council under the National Economic and Social Development Office Act 2006 and the NESC (Alteration of Composition) Order 2010, SI 603/2010. Each of the following sectors nominates three representatives to the council: business and employer interests, ICTU, farming and agricultural interests, community and voluntary sector and environmental sector.

A further six members are public servants, mainly Secretaries General, and must include a representative of my Department and the Department of Finance. The Secretary General of my Department is the chair of the council and an assistant secretary of my Department is the deputy chair.

There are also seven independent members on the council. The council is funded through my Department's Vote and my Department also has governance responsibilities regarding the council.

Photo of Mary Lou McDonaldMary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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The National Economic and Social Council, NESC, published a paper last month on the implications of Covid-19 for housing in Ireland. The paper argues that the crisis demonstrates the capacity of Government to take swift and decisive action. It adds that the introduction of legislation to ban evictions and rent increases and in securing additional accommodation for homeless households is the evidence of that. Another important point it notes is the increased co-operation between official bodies and voluntary agencies in dealing with homelessness and their shared proactive approach to protecting homeless people from the virus. NESC warns that tenants who have built up arrears during the crisis are now exposed to eviction when the ban expires and as a result believes it is important that it be extended yet despite this advice offered weeks ago from an agency under the aegis of the Taoiseach's Department the Minister for Housing, Planning and Local Government saw fit to wait until literally the 11th hour to extend the ban by a miserly ten days. Surely even the Taoiseach would accept that this is at best incompetence on the part of his Minister and at worst an indication of what is to come in terms of housing policy from his Government. The dogs in the street know that tens of thousands of renters work in sectors of the economy that will not return to full employment this year. Some have yet to return to work at all due to public health guidelines. The Taoiseach's Government's mishandling of this issue has added to the enormous uncertainty that they face. As Fianna Fáil housing spokesperson, the current Minister has had months to prepare for the extension of the ban on evictions and rent increases. This plan should literally have been top of his agenda when taking up his Ministry. We now understand that he will bring legislation to Cabinet tomorrow to be published on Friday. The Taoiseach knows that rent-related legislation is technical. The previous Minister had a reputation for rushing legislation through the House that turned out to be bad legislation. His housing Minister criticised the previous Minister, Deputy Eoghan Murphy, on that very point on more than one occasion. Our housing spokesperson, Deputy Eoin Ó Broin, has written to the Minister asking that he urgently brief the Opposition on the proposed legislation yet the Minister has not agreed to that. Will the Taoiseach progress this matter and ensure that this important legislation gets the scrutiny that is very necessary?

Photo of Seán Ó FearghaílSeán Ó Fearghaíl (Kildare South, Ceann Comhairle)
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Deputy Duncan Smith and Deputy Boyd Barrett have supplementary questions.

Photo of Duncan SmithDuncan Smith (Dublin Fingal, Labour)
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The NESC has done good work during Covid-19 with regard to producing papers. It has looked at examples of schemes in other states. In particular, it is looking at the German short-time working scheme, the Kurzarbeit, with a view to replacing the temporary wage subsidy scheme and giving some kind of certainty to workers who are very concerned that when the temporary wage subsidy scheme, TWSS, finishes so could their jobs and their futures. We in the Labour Party support a short-time working scheme being implemented. I am thinking of the aviation sector in particular, which we know will be one of the last sectors to recover. Has the Taoiseach considered such a scheme? Has he engaged with the aviation industry on such a scheme? I am aware that in Germany Lufthansa has protected 21,000 cabin crew and ground staff jobs by the provision of such a scheme. Why are we not looking at doing the same here? Has the aviation industry come to the Taoiseach's Government to ask about such a scheme in terms of how to protect workers? Any clarification the Taoiseach could give on that would be appreciated.

Photo of Richard Boyd BarrettRichard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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As has already been alluded to, NESC produced a paper in June on the implications of Covid-19 for housing and it was unequivocal in saying that the eviction and the rent increase ban should be extended. It was very clear from the commentary in that report that it did not mean for ten days. It correctly pointed out, as part of its argument, that the huge numbers of people who have suffered income loss or job loss may have built up arrears and therefore if the ban is lifted there is a real danger that many people who have been impacted through no fault of their own by Covid-19 could find themselves facing eviction if there is not a much longer term extension of that ban. I remind the Taoiseach that Fianna Fáil supported the People Before Profit-Solidarity anti-eviction Bill in the previous Dáil, which passed in the Dáil. The previous Government did not want to implement it but the Taoiseach's party voted for the Bill at that time, which sought to ban evictions on the grounds of sale to prevent vulture funds and unscrupulous landlords using eviction as a way of maximising profit at the expense of tenants. It is clear that the NESC is alluding to that. It also states clearly and categorically that homeless people have seen their situation improve because of public health measures such as getting own door accommodation and that those measures should not be reversed. This is a body funded by the Taoiseach's Department. Will he heed the advice of NESC and have a long-term extension on the eviction and rent increase ban to safeguard tenants and not reverse the improvements that some homeless people have got as a result of the pandemic measures?

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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In the first instance it is important to point out that the existing ban is by a statutory instrument and is grounded in the emergency legislation required to deal with the immediate aftermath of the outbreak of Covid-19.

The legal advice is very clear. It is not legally sound, it is very open to challenge and it does not offer the protection that people suspect. It must be replaced. The legislation that will be introduced is designed to ensure tenants who are unable to pay their rents due to the impact of Covid-19 are protected from eviction for rent arrears. The Bill is designed to protect those who could be vulnerable to becoming homeless due to Covid-19.

It is a much more targeted legislative approach, but primary legislation will offer much greater legal certainty, protection and security. It will also strengthen and give a new role to the Residential Tenancies Board, which will work to support tenants in rent arrears. The Economic and Social Research Institute, ESRI, study states that about 8,000 people are in rent arrears as a result of Covid-19. We are very clear on the need to protect tenants who are in difficulty because of Covid-19 from eviction. That is what the new legislation will do. It will replace the statutory instrument that has been maintaining the ban thus far.

Deputy Duncan Smith raised the idea of short-term working. The temporary Covid-19 wage subsidy scheme will not end on a cliff-edge. The stimulus programme which will be announced this week will outline the next phase of TWSS and how we intend to support workers in companies that currently utilise it. In the medium term they will be in a position to avail of the temporary Covid-19 wage subsidy scheme or something similar.

What the Deputy has suggested is interesting, and by all means we will take a submission on it if the Deputy wishes to write to me, the Minister for Finance, Deputy Paschal Donohoe, or the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform, Deputy Michael McGrath. That could be of some value later. In the meantime, TWSS will not end on a cliff-edge for companies. The idea is to give companies and workers certainty on their positions and their jobs in the medium term.

1:30 pm

Photo of Seán Ó FearghaílSeán Ó Fearghaíl (Kildare South, Ceann Comhairle)
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We are running out of time. We can take a brief supplementary question from Deputy McDonald.

Photo of Mary Lou McDonaldMary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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It is no secret that the Taoiseach has been hostile to the idea of rent freezes and bans on evictions. During the election campaign he cited legal advice saying that a rent freeze would not be possible. We all know that this turned out not to be the case. Leaving that aside, I asked the Taoiseach if the Minister for Housing, Planning and Local Government would agree to briefing Opposition housing spokespersons on the proposed legislation. Thus far the Minister has refused to do that. I am asking the Taoiseach to intervene and ensure that it happens, because this is important legislation and it is important that it has the requisite scrutiny.

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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I take issue with the Deputy's use of the word "hostile". I am not hostile to keeping rents as low as possible. We supported controls on rents in various areas. The Deputy says that now we all know better than before the election. We do not. Nobody knew about Covid-19 during the election. Covid-19 is what made the rent freezes and a ban on evictions possible in the past three months. Without that, it would be legally difficult to do what was done. It would not have been possible. The Covid-19 emergency gave rise to that. We need truth from time to time, not just disingenuous and politically motivated commentary. I am for fair approaches to protect people. I want access to housing to be as wide as possible, whether through council housing, fair and affordable rents or houses that people can afford to buy. That is my agenda. I am not hostile to anything that would protect or help renters in any shape or form. I will talk to the Minister about briefing the Opposition. Timelines are obviously tight. The Government is two and a half weeks old and a lot is happening. In fairness to the Minister, this legislation is being introduced to replace a statutory instrument which we have been advised is illegal.