Dáil debates

Tuesday, 15 October 2019

Ceisteanna - Questions

Government-Church Dialogue

3:40 pm

Photo of Brendan HowlinBrendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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1. To ask the Taoiseach if he will report on his meeting with church leaders on 4 July 2019. [37446/19]

Photo of Michael MoynihanMichael Moynihan (Cork North West, Fianna Fail)
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2. To ask the Taoiseach if he will report on the plenary organised with religious leaders in July 2019 and the issues that were discussed. [37641/19]

Photo of Richard Boyd BarrettRichard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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3. To ask the Taoiseach if he will report on his meeting with church leaders on 4 July 2019. [38539/19]

Photo of Ruth CoppingerRuth Coppinger (Dublin West, Solidarity)
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4. To ask the Taoiseach if he will report on his meeting with religious leaders on 4 July 2019 and the matters that were discussed. [38542/19]

Photo of Leo VaradkarLeo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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I propose to take Questions Nos. 1 to 4, inclusive, together.

A plenary meeting with representatives from churches, faith communities and non-confessional organisations was held on Thursday, 4 July 2019 in Dublin Castle. The meeting was organised as part of the Church State Structured Dialogue Process, which was established in 2005 and forms part of the Government's commitment to carry out a wide-ranging and inclusive consultation on public policy.

Representatives from 28 organisations attended the plenary, including representatives from the Christian, Islamic, Jewish and Dharmic faiths as well as representatives from the Humanist Association of Ireland and Atheist Ireland. I was accompanied by several Government Ministers, including the Ministers for Business, Enterprise and Innovation; Children and Youth Affairs; Employment Affairs and Social Protection; Housing, Planning and Local Government; and Education and Skills and the Minister of State with special responsibility for equality, immigration and integration.

Discussions focused on three main themes. They were effective structured dialogue, inclusive and diverse communities and education. The themes were developed based on questions for discussion submitted in advance by the participants. The meeting offered a good opportunity to discuss what a new relationship between church and State might look like and facilitated a sharing of viewpoints on a variety of topics.

The main actions arising from the plenary are to agree how the new relationship will be structured and how it would work going forward, to review Article 17 of the Treaty of the Functioning on the European Union process and other international best practice, to establish a contact person and permanent secretariat for the relationship and to explore more funding for local initiatives. Ministers also agreed to follow up directly with participants on matters relevant to their Departments bilaterally.

3:50 pm

Photo of Brendan HowlinBrendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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At the Kennedy Summer School, which was held in my constituency last month, the leader of the Catholic Church in Ireland, Archbishop Eamon Martin, spoke of Catholic politicians. Specifically, he spoke of Catholic politicians having a responsibility to support laws which uphold the dignity of every human person made in God's image from conception to death, and cautioned against politicians having parallel lives which are compartmentalised into spiritual and secular spheres.

As we become more pluralist and our society becomes infinitely more multicultural, the idea of Catholic politicians could become deeply problematic, especially for growing minority groups. When Catholic bishop Daniel Mageean wrote in 1939 that Lord Craigavon had adopted the slogan "A Protestant parliament for a Protestant people", he did so in protest of the subjugation of the rights of the Catholic minority. Is it not time we left those types of characterisations in the past? In a republic, we cherish the right of everybody to adhere to and express the religion of their choice, but we should not revert to a time when clerics instructed politicians, as used to be the case in both this jurisdiction and the North.

Does the Taoiseach intend to discuss the aforementioned comment about Catholic politicians in the context of the church-State covenant he is discussing with church leaders? Similarly, does the Taoiseach intend to undertake any specific initiatives regarding school patronage in light of growing pluralisation in our society?

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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When we previously discussed church-State dialogue, it was suggested that a significant initiative would be undertaken at the forum in July and that the so-called new covenant proposed last year would have some substance added to it. However, most of the reactions to the forum have noted how little substance there is to what was presented as a major initiative. The issues the Taoiseach addressed in his opening speech have been on the agenda for a long time and the principles outlined have, in most cases, been official policy for a number of years.

In education, for example, the key pillars of diversity, pluralism, and alternative school models were first supported by me and Mary O'Rourke in the Department of Education. Mary Hanafin developed a new model of community national schools, and large-scale divestment of Catholic patronage was proposed ten years ago. Archbishop Martin himself proposed a divestment of 50% of the schools in his diocese. That divestment has not yet materialised but the pace has been very slow. The target of 50% divestment within 12 months was unilaterally announced by then Minister, Ruairí Quinn, in 2011, and emphasis was placed on political statements rather than any deep engagement.

Will the Taoiseach tell us whether the new covenant is a substantive initiative or a general process? Is it about codifying already agreed principles? If it is to evolve into something new, when will the details be proposed and published?

Photo of Richard Boyd BarrettRichard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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As I understand it, if the Northern Irish Assembly is not up and running by 31 October, legislation passed in the British Parliament will require the extension of the 1967 Abortion Act to the North. This would be a long-overdue vindication of the rights of women in the North, who have been denied the right to abortion and to control their own bodies. It would be a good thing, notwithstanding other political issues around the Northern Assembly, such as Brexit and so on. This would be a huge victory for women in the North.

In the Taoiseach's discussions with religious leaders of any variety, what attitude have they indicated towards the possible extension of abortion rights to the people of the North in a few weeks? We all remember the great scenes in Dublin Castle when a student lifted a placard reading "The North is next" out of the crowd, and the following huge affirmation that this should happen. I hope everybody in this House will join in welcoming that development if it occurs. Even if the Assembly were up and running, we should want this to happen as a matter of absolute urgency to have real equality for women in both the North and South of this island.

Photo of Ruth CoppingerRuth Coppinger (Dublin West, Solidarity)
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As the Taoiseach knows, a very popular referendum was held in this country last year, with a record number of people turning out to vote. Thousands of us campaigned for many years for the right to abortion services in Ireland. However, it now transpires that just over half of the country's 19 maternity units are providing full abortion services, namely, the three Dublin maternity hospitals and one each in Mullingar, Drogheda, Galway, Mayo, Limerick, Cork and Waterford. If a woman or pregnant person lives in any other county, they must travel, usually twice. While 340 GPs have signed up to provide abortion services, many counties remain unrepresented on that list. The reason for this gap is the conscientious objection clause in the legislation. These are State-funded hospitals that are paid for by the taxpayer, yet the rights of a tiny minority are preventing the will of the majority from being implemented. That is wrong. I have no doubt that the Taoiseach will say we are gratuitously bashing the church, as he told my colleague who raised a church-State matter during Leaders' Questions. That seems to be his go-to phrase whenever anyone challenges the church.

I refer to sex education. The religious right is now targeting this issue and whipping parents into a frenzy about it. The Minister stated last week that ethos will not prevent this curriculum being taught, but I am not so sure about that. Will the Government change the law in order that the characteristic spirit of the school cannot be used to prevent the teaching of objective sex education?

Photo of Mary Lou McDonaldMary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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The changes to which Deputy Boyd Barrett referred will actually occur next Monday.

I refer to the matter of former mother and baby homes. As the Taoiseach knows, four years have passed since the commission of investigation into this issue was established. In that period, five interim reports have been published and the inquiry has been granted a one-year extension. That extension was necessary in part due to the lateness of materials submitted through discovery by the Departments of Health and Children and Youth Affairs. I am sure the Taoiseach is as shocked as I am to discover the extent of documentation that had not been submitted or may even have been suppressed. Last year, the commission acknowledged the efforts made by HSE staff to find relevant documentation, but was dismayed at how little had been found. Even relatively recent information was not available.

This should cause us concern. There are very few burial records for the Tuam or Bessborough homes, despite their significantly high child mortality rates. I am sure church leaders, just like Members of this House, are anxious that Departments and State agencies do not stymie the commission's efforts to gather all necessary documentation to complete its work. I hope the Taoiseach can give them and us that reassurance and encouragement, in order that this work is finished completely and expeditiously.

Photo of Leo VaradkarLeo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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I thank the Deputies for their questions. Deputy Howlin referred to the Kennedy Summer School, which I had the privilege of attending and speaking at. I also paid tribute to its founder, Mr. Noel Whelan. The school is going from strength to strength and will show its worth in the years ahead, even more so than it has already.

Deputy Howlin mentioned the views expressed by Archbishop Martin on the obligations of Catholic politicians. As he was speaking, I was reminded of the words of St. John Henry Newman, who was canonised in Rome this weekend. When he learned about the new doctrine of papal infallibility, he said he would drink to the Pope, but would first drink to his own conscience.

What St. John Henry Newman was encapsulating in that was the idea in the Catholic faith that allows people to act according to their conscience, even Catholic politicians.

On the issue of abortion in Northern Ireland, I have had not had any discussions with religious leaders about that particular matter. I understand the representatives of the major Catholic and Protestant churches have encouraged the parties to form an Executive and Assembly in order to prevent that law from being applied to Northern Ireland. This is perhaps with a view to applying a different law which would not go as far as is currently likely to happen in the next few weeks. That is very much a matter for the Northern Ireland Assembly and Executive to decide on, however, based on the principles of devolution and local democracy.

Deputy Coppinger referred to the availability of abortion services across the State. The referendum was just over a year ago and the legislation was passed towards the end of last year. It was never the case that services were going to start right away. It always takes time to phase in new health services. It is encouraging, however, that there are now 340 general practitioners, GPs, providing abortion services across the country. If one considers that there are approximately 4,000 terminations of pregnancy a year in Ireland, that is a doctor-patient ratio of 1:12. If each of those doctors performed maybe ten terminations a year, that is enough to cover the service. Accordingly, 340 GPs providing the service is quite a lot when one considers that only about 4,000 terminations of pregnancy are sought every year.

When it comes to hospitals, I am not sure if it is down to conscientious objections. I will have to check up on that. There may be other reasons in different hospitals. It might be down to the volumes of referrals or staff training. Irish doctors and nurses are not trained to perform surgical abortions. If they are willing to do so, they would have to be trained. It might not simply be down to conscientious objection. It is in one hospital for sure but it is something I will have to look into a little bit further.

On the church-State dialogue process, the idea behind the new covenant and the new relationship is that it is a matter which church and State should figure out together. It should not be designed or invented by one side. In many ways, I am not sure how it is going to turn out yet. The opportunity of the plenary was to have that discussion with the church bodies and religious bodies as to how they think it should turn out.

4:00 pm

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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Was it just a good idea for a speech?

Photo of Leo VaradkarLeo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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I think it was a good idea quite frankly.

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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If it is not fleshed out, then no one knows what it means.

Photo of Leo VaradkarLeo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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When one has a good idea, often the best thing is to talk to the stakeholders and not impose it on them.

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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It is best to just announce it, if it sounds good at the time. Then it can be worked out later.

Photo of Leo VaradkarLeo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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I did call them together and we had this meeting. Among the actions arising out of it was to continue working out how that new relationship should be structured.

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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Is it not somewhat Napoleonic?

Photo of Leo VaradkarLeo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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There was particular reference to Article 17 of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union which provides for church-state dialogue. Many people do not know that the European treaties mandate that there should be a church-state or faith-state dialogue. We want to follow that and look at international best practice. We also agreed to have a contact person in the Department who would be the permanent go-to person for the bodies.

School reconfiguration for diversity is being developed in order to provide more multidenominational and non-denominational schools in line with choices of families and school communities, as well as the programme for Government commitment for 400 multidenominational and non-denominational schools by 2030. It involves the transfer of schools as opposed to the amalgamation or closure model of the earlier patronage divesting process. It is envisaged that it will comprise two phases, namely, the identification phase and the implementation phase. The initial identification phase involved each education and training board identifying an area where there may be unmet oncoming demand for a multidenominational or non-denominational school. It would also involve surveying parents of preschool children in partnership with local childcare committees to assess the level of the oncoming demand in the area. This identification phase provides useful learning and is informing the development of the process.